MovieChat Forums > Jack the Ripper (1988) Discussion > Was Sir William Gull 'Jack the Ripper'?

Was Sir William Gull 'Jack the Ripper'?


The movie gives a pretty good argument.

Jack the Ripper cut up five women in the middle of the night in dark unlit alleys. He not only killed the women, but he precisely picked out body parts and displayed them in horrible ways that took very precise and expert work.

Ripper HAD to have been a surgeon, or possibly an undertaker, and he had to have been crazy. Why else would he have done what he did the way that he did?

By the way, this is my favorite Michael Caine movie :)

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I think it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that someone famous/wellknown from outside of Whitechapel was the killer. I also think it unlikely that the killer was Druitt, Ostrog, or Maybrick (that one has 'hoax' written all over it)

if the killer was a "known" suspect (and it's entirely possible that the killer was actually someone who was never suspected), then my money would be on one of the following:

1. William Bury
2. George Chapman
3. Nathan Kaminsky
4. Aaron Kosminski

I'd advise to read up on those. in a city of that size and at that time, there would probably be only 3 or 4 men actually capable of doing such things. Bury and Chapman were PROVEN to be 2 men capable of such crimes and both left London soon after Mary Kelly was killed. Kaminski, if he was "David Cohen", was institutionalized soon after the Kelly murder. I think it's likely that the killer lived right in the general vicinity of the murders, and that he moved to London just before and left London just after. he also probably had a reason for hating the whores (ie. vinereal disease like at least 2 of the above suspects DID have). He was most likely right handed (there is no proof of left handedness or ambedextris). He was most likely NOT a surgeon or very much educated at all and I do not think he wrote any of the Jack the Ripper letters. though I DO think it's probable that he wrote the "From Hell" letter (which was not signed as Jack the Ripper).

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gull was never jack,its just a fantastical idea dreamt up to give a face and almost a celebrity one at that to the ripper...it couldnt possibly be someone we have never heard of! personally i think it was probably some one whose name has never cropped up in any book...also who else thinks its possible there was more than one jack,as in it was never the work of one man but severall unrelated men that killed the poor women? i mean different descriptions all the time....? and as for the whole it was a skilled surgeon i dont buy that much either,i know that organs were removed but its not like that was all that was done....they were after all ripped to pieces and its not like he/she/they (jack) ever came out and said im going to get her liver...who ever it was probably just grabbed what ever organ he found and it was later read as he deliberately removed the liver or kidney,,is it not possible it was a fluke-mistake?

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Hint-of-Smegma on Sun Mar 23 2008 19:06:54

"It's certainly believed by Met officers who have had access to study the original files, plus the materials not released to the public regarding the case, that Gull was indeed the killer regardless of the current crop of theories floating around."

"Put it this way, despite current public opinion regarding the different theories, Metropolitan police officers who have actually studied the case still believe it was Gull, along with an accomplice (who did the physical work of procuring, possibly drugging and moving the women)...."

"And again I go back to this; I will err on the side of the beliefs of those who've seen and studied the actual case notes and the material not released to the public. If they think he was involved, I'll believe them before I believe so-called writers who've not had access to the same amount of material".


Which "Met police officers" exactly ever "certainly believed" Gull and co were the Ripper? None of the Met/City officers involved in 1888 and after ever did-Abberline, Swanson, Warren, Anderson, Dew, Macnaghten, Monro etc. I've never heard this theory being offered by anybody who had any involvment in the case or who has seen "the files" subsequently (actually they have been open for quite a while and say nothing about Gull, Netley, Clarence etc).So what unseen material are you referring to? Who are your police sources telling you they "believed" Gull was involved, what are these mysterious "files", not "open to the public", but seemingly available enough for you to have knowledge of their content about Sir William Gull and the Whitechapel killings?

The idea of Gull as the killer, with or without Mr Netley's help, is a risible scenario to anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the east end "Ripper" murders. An entertaining fiction for a film, but such fiction, based in the ludicrous long exploded "Royal conspiracy" stuff, should not be regarded as the truth about the Ripper crimes.
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"What people need to understand however is that over the years a lot of false information has been made out to be fact regarding the case"...

A heck of as lot is currently perpetuated about the Ripper and the Royals/Masons by filmakers who therby pour slime over the reputations of completely innocent men (Gull, Clarence, Netley, Stephen etc) The late Stephen Knight is the yarn spinning author who really set this rolling 30 years ago. It has absolutely no credibility whatever among any experts on the case. For it totally lacks any evidence whatever to back it up, it is supported by mere speculations about the Ripper crimes, much of it pure imagination and quite inconsistent with the facts about the killings which are firmly established and beyond rational dispute.


"Quick cut 'surgery' on women brought to him probably unconscious is certainly a possibility".

No it certainly isn't. The victims died almost immediately when attacked-suffocation/the cutting of the carotid artery was usually the immediate cause of death for most victims. The killer had some anatomical knowledge and skill, but need not have been a surgeon or doctor (as attested by the various medical witnesses).There was no evidence in the autopsies that any of the women were "drugged", nor that they been moved "unconscious" from where the bodies were found. In fact, in many cases the women had only been dead minutes before discovery; indeed doctors were quickly on the scene-the idea they had been killed or drugged, transported to Gull across London for mutilation brought back again and dumped near where they often had been seen only minutes earlier alive and well by witnesses, simply doesn't match the established facts-it's just nonsense. On this matter the examining doctors and coronors and police officials and witnesses were agreed. The idea they were drugged and moved has no evidential basis-it is fiction. The women were not brought out unconscious from Whitechapel by coach to be butchered by Gull, or anyone else. It all happened quite quickly at the scene (except for Kelly, the murderer was indoors there, and thus had a long time to complete his terrible dismembering and mutilation of that victim). It is clear that in some caes-Stride the most obvious-the killer was interrupted by an approaching person and could not complete his mutilations on the corpse.

The Ripper probably killed between 4 and 8 women, most in 1888, a couple more he may have committed a few years later. They were prostitutes, mostly of the lowest sort, middle aged and desperate in most cases. There is no good evidence of any personal connection between the women. Kelly, the youngest, possibly Jack's last victim (she's the main focus of the conspiracy fantasy) was clearly butchered by a sadistic sexual psychopath, like the others-the killer here had time to do his worst mutilations.

In almost all cases the killer was skillful and clever in evading capture, but luck did play a big part in preventing him being caught in the act or in flight. For cunning establishment "conspirators" to commit mass murder just to shut people up in such a terribly risky way, is scarcely credible.

The Ripper was a white male, probably of average height for the time and of a stocky build. He probably was of working class or lower middle class background and killed alone and on foot. The victims were slain where they were discoverd. His true identity remains a mystery, but there is no credible evidence for the thesis peddled in this and other films about conspiracy and Gull. All of this is easily checkable from the many decent books which use the actual evidence to examine the case. Even a cursory study of the Ripper crimes shows the Gull stuff cannot be right.

Gull was a respected physician, he should not be being disgracefully smeared like this as the worst sort of killer-unless those pointing the finger can produce some sound evidence to support the notion-but of that there is none.

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No he certainly wasn't. Total rubbish. The Ripper went on foot, he was in his 20s or 30s, almost certainly a lone wolf psychopath. There is no decent evidence whatever for the Royal/Masonic conspiracy drivel. The books amd movies ("Murder by decree", "From Hell", this one) which perpetuate the myth, which mainly arose from Stephen Knight's 70s Ripper book, don't seem to care about the muck they fling-"accusing" real men of being callous serial killers on the basis of ridiculous easily refuted fantasies.

This movie should be seen purely as an entertainment, not something which can give a sound case for identifying "Jack". Factually it is full of errors, and its "thesis" is pure moonshine.

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e-mlodik_deux on Sun Apr 20 2008 15:26:24

"Believe it or not, the filmmakers of this film STILL believe their theory is the correct one".

I wonder if there will be a careful "accurate" movie made one day about "Jack". I heard Johnny Depp talking about "From Hell" years back and it was clear he knew full well the story of his film was just fiction, and he seemed a bit of a "Ripperologist" himself.

There really is no good excuse for giving any credit whatever to the freemason/Royal conspiracy stuff. It wasn't remotely credible and lacked even any dubious "evidence" to support it when it was dreamed up years ago, and it cannot be taken seriously by anyone who looks into the case.

I don't know if Sir William Gull has any living relatives, but if so, they have every right to be very angry with films like this-calling their relation the most despised mass killer in English criminal history, who mutilated poor women-without there being any grounds for such an abominable slur. I'd love to see filmakers try to defend their ridiculous "theory" in a court of law, Stephen Knight's ghost would probably be laughing.

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[deleted]

DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO WRITE SPOILERS YOU IDIOT

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I don't buy the idea about the Ripper riding around Whitechapel in a horse and carriage displaying the royal insignia on the doors. There were various witness descriptions of the Ripper but not one of them mentioned this most vital piece of evidence. Amberline's argument was that to murder Liz Stride and then Catherine Eddowes in such a short period of time necessated a horse and carriage by way of speedy transport. However, my understanding is that modern thinking suggests that Liz Stride was murdered by somebody else and therefore was not a victim of the Ripper.
On a more general note I'm always a bit suspicious of films that purport to closely tie themselves in with the facts because you never know where the facts finish and poetic license kicks in, for example, are we supposed to believe in the apparent love interest between Amberline and Emma Prentiss - it seemed to me to be an utter irrelevance. Also there were many other suspects who were more plausible than those depicted in the film but were coveniently ommitted.
But overall I thought it was a good film. Lewis Collins gave a commendable performance.

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Stride was killed at about 12:50 AM, and Eddowes was killed sometime between 1:30 and 1:45 AM. Mitre square is barely 1/4 mile away from Dutfield yard. The murderer would have had plenty of time to do both, and would not have needed a carriage to do so.

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After this length of time, let's face it, we're unlikely ever to know for sure the identify of JtR. When I listened to the commentary of the TV film, David Wickes and the researcher did seem pretty convinced that they'd correctly identified the perpetrator, but then so does everyone else that's got a theory on the matter. As far as the film goes, it was enjoyable, with (to me) a plausible resolution. But I regard it as a work of fiction - on the commentary, the filmmakers did identify parts where they'd taken a bit of dramatic licence with some of the real-life characters.

What interested me was that, since it was made to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the murders and there was a lot of interest, in order to keep the ending secret, the makers wrote and also filmed different endings, each with a different character revealed as JtR. I'd have quite liked to have seen the other endings - pity they didn't put them on the DVD as extras.

Goldie

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[deleted]

Well,hell isn't it interesting to find out who it is? I'm positive it was a surgeon.

Im like bim bam, i know you want some
She chewing on the **** like a piece of bubbleyum

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One Ripper candidate is James Kelly, who murdered his wife with a knife, and hated prostitutes. He escaped from the psychiatric prison he was held in. He could have been in the east end at the time of the Ripper murders and he knew the area well (he'd consorted with street women there in the past) The police and home office were discreetly aware of him as the possible perpetrator, but were worried about it getting out (and rebounding on them) that an escaped killer, who had avoided being hanged, was possibly "Jack".

Kelly was on the run nearly 40 years and lived abroad for a time, including stays in Canada and the USA. It seems doubtful that Ripper like murders were committed abroad where Kelly was, which possibly weakens him as a Ripper candidate. Destitute and in failing health, he voluntarily returned to the psychiatric prison in old age; he died soon after in 1929.

As a possible Ripper he has far more going for him than Kominski, Sickert, Druitt, Maybrick etc, and certainly far far more than the Duke of Clarence, Sir William Gull and co (I regard those last names as sensationalist invention).

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One Ripper candidate is James Kelly, who murdered his wife with a knife, and hated prostitutes. He escaped from the psychiatric prison he was held in. He could have been in the east end at the time of the Ripper murders and he knew the area well (he'd consorted with street women there in the past) The home office were discreetly aware of him as the possible perpetrator, but were worried about it getting out (and rebounding on them) that an escaped killer, who had avoided being hanged, was possibly "Jack".

Kelly was on the run nearly 40 years and lived abroad for a time, including stays in Canada and the USA. It seems doubtful that Ripper like murders were committed abroad where Kelly was, which possibly weakens him as a Ripper candidate. Destitute and in failing health, he voluntarily returned to the psychiatric prison in old age; he died soon after in 1929.

As a possible Ripper he has far more going for him than Kominski, Sickert, Druitt, Maybrick etc, and certainly far far more than the Duke of Clarence, Sir William Gull and co (I regard those last names as sensationalist invention).

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Everyone should simply read 'The Complete History of Jack the Ripper' by Philip Sugden.

He says at the end who he considers the most likely suspect, maybe, but makes no positive conclusion on it because he, like EVERYONE ELSE, can't.

What this book does issimply tell the honest to God truth about the case, while blowing apart all of the most stupid theories and calling out all the blatant lies, mistakes and inventions.
Knight's drivel and falsehood gets a truly good kicking.

Essential stuff.

www.beardyfreak.com

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