There's something kinda off about the way you worded your points.
For one, the OP isn't really up for debate - everything they posted is a legitimate example of sexual harassment and why the progression of how sexual harassment is viewed in today's world holds many positives, particularly for women. Maybe you could debate the details, but not that overarching point.
For two, "every uninvited male to female contact" IS potentially sexual assault. If you enter someone's house uninvited for whatever reason, you're still trespassing. That there are consequences to a crime goes without saying. Adam Sandler might not've meant anything by it, but it doesn't mean he can put his hand on any woman's knee whenever he feels like it (or any man's, for that matter). If a woman were to tell him to remove that hand, she shouldn't be called overly sensitive just because she asserted her boundaries.
As for your points about incels: If you consider that a woman's touch has benefits, then that means you likely consider that touch a reward, but for what? Incels mistreat women, so why would they be rewarded by women's touch? They're not being deprived, they're depriving themselves through their own actions, so why is the onus on women to reward instead of on the incels to change in order to earn that touch?
- However, women's touch is not a reward, it's just a natural part of the relationships some have, which incels might experience if they actually tried being friends with any women. Again, if they are incapable of striking and maintaining such friendships, they are not being deprived, they are depriving themselves. Women aren't generally difficult to be friends with. They're just lifting their standards out of the depths of hell now, that's the only difference, but incels could still work a little harder and make a female friend. They're the ones denying themselves that touch through their own actions or inaction.
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BeaSouth (3283)
2 years ago
“Depths of hell?” I don’t think women were helpless Medieval tenant farmers while Cheers was airing.
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Wint3rFir3 (7146)
2 years ago
It was an exaggeration, I was clearly saying women maintained low standards for men in the past - which was made evident by how often Diane brushed off sexual assault as a character on Cheers. Cheers not only televised her acceptance of this behaviour, but endorsed it.
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BeaSouth (3283)
2 years ago
I don’t know WF. A situational comedy is not an authoritative account of real-life social standards from the time period. Scenes are contrived for laughs based on the personality traits created specifically for the character by the actress and writers. I mean, we don’t look at Carla Tortelli and draw a conclusion that 1980’s blue collar women must have been promiscuous, mean-spirited abusers prone to emasculating weak men.
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Wint3rFir3 (7146)
2 years ago
Sure, exaggerations happen in sitcoms, but they still usually reflect or are commenting on the times. And Carla suffered from another form of sexism, where she was the opposite of Diane.
She was an unattractive woman who enjoyed sex and was considered promiscuous - and as a result, she was basically punished for it via her bad partners and 8 bratty kids. In contrast, Diane was the attractive foil who didn't lust after men - sex was something men wanted from her, and she complied with some of them, namely the main character Sam because sex was his reward, one he was never punished for. And neither was Diane because she wasn't the pursuer, she was the pursued. Note that she got to go off and have a career after faithfully loving Sam, then returned only to marry him. Carla's ending is far from happy by the end of both Cheers and Frasier as far as I recall.
Diane's experience is reflected in studies like The Sexual Experiences Survey, which shows that only 3% of women reported their sexual assaults in the 1980s. When given a definition of date rape and acquaintance rape, one woman stated: “What 17-year-old boy hasn’t done this in high school?” which is pretty telling about how sexual assault was viewed at the time.
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FootOfDavros (8142)
2 years ago
Diane's experience is reflected in studies like The Sexual Experiences Survey, which shows that only 3% of women reported their sexual assaults in the 1980s. When given a definition of date rape and acquaintance rape, one woman stated: “What 17-year-old boy hasn’t done this in high school?” which is pretty telling about how sexual assault was viewed at the time.
In terms of the OP, this is pretty interesting. However was this a survey done in the 80s or retrospectively looking at women's experiences in the 80s through today's lens?
I was trying to point out the very positive impact of feminism when you look back on something like this. As you said, perhaps exaggerated, but shows do reflect their times and attitudes.
I suspect that many women wouldn't have viewed the kind of things that Diane goes through as sexual assault at the time.
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Wint3rFir3 (7146)
2 years ago
The study was undertaken between 1984-1985 I believe. So yeah, it absolutely showed that, while loads of women experienced sexual assault and harassment, they didn't actually define it as such, and neither did men who were surveyed (I think it was 75% of men who said they'd never committed any kind sex-related crime) despite the numbers around actual assaults.
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Redsfan001 (6144)
2 years ago
Incels mistreat women (?)...I think that is a little harsh.
Incels are not CHOSEN for sex partners by women.
Why?
Because more and more women are choosing young men from their phones now. Sixty percent of people now meet this way and is fast becoming the standard. Young women have access to more single men than anytime in human history...this is having a perverse effect on society by creating the "incel"... because young women are biologically more choosey they are choosing the same 5-10% of top tier men as sex partners.
I am a middle aged man and I have been going to the gym regularly since my mid twenties. I have noticed a demographic shift in the makeup during that time... almost gone are the middle aged trying to work off their gut...in are the high-school kids..yes high school kids.. trying to get buff for their shirtless pic. I talked to one of them and they stated that the online competition for dates has become so intense, that if you are not buff you risk being dateless.
Gone from history is the smoothie pick up artist with the silver tongue in Cheers...in are six pack abs! ripped,no fat torsos!...and sipindley legs (can't fit into the shirtless pic so they don't matter)...the young don't do cardio.
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Wint3rFir3 (7146)
2 years ago
PART 1
When women are being shot up at yoga studios because some incel used his income on guns instead of on prostitutes - all so he could blame someone other than himself for not getting laid - and other incels are celebrating that shooting as a victory for their community, then saying that incels mistreat women is actually an understatement.
I don't understand the point you're making by bolding "chosen". Not all women are chosen by men, either, but they aren't shooting up fishing clubs or baseball leagues in retaliation. And men have just as much access to the opposite sex as women do, regardless of the competition. It’s not like women have none just by being women – everyone has specific tastes.
And actually, very little of what you stated about dating apps is statistically accurate. Lots of people meet online, sure, but only 20% of long-term relationships start via dating apps – so most are not choosing their long-term partners through these apps. And women pursue older men more than younger men, which suggests a lot of women don't care about a gym-ready body, whether men think they do or not. For example, eharmony notes that "at 26, women have more online pursuers than men whereas, at 48, men have twice as many online pursuers as women."
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Redsfan001 (6144)
2 years ago
I'll explain my concerns.
It is hard to start a family when a woman is 48. Women of breeding age, how they select mates, is a extremely important part of society, and it has changed.
Sometimes our technology can get ahead of our social understanding and it can cause chaos. With the rise of dating apps as a way to select a mate, it is a potential danger to society.
A CEO of a dating app that I watched on CNBC months back gave the stats and problems with his business..One big problem that he highlights is that young men find about 60% of women "datable" where as women of the same age only find 5-10% "dateable". He went on to say that some young men don't get selected at all. The CEO didn't say it exactly, but there was the strong implication that he was creating a stud farm.
This means that women are choosing the same men, and they are in high demand. These studs are unlikely to settle down because their options are plentiful. Men don't put much energy into procreation so they are generally not as fanatic in forming long term relationships as women if they can be Casanova.
This also means the majority of young men are also being denied a partner of any sort. The vast majority don't turn into shooters, but some do. More and more of these young men will just become cynical of women, revert to video game playing, jerking off to porn and not growing as a person like they have in past generations.
The dating app scene has a perverse effect on young women also. With so many men online pursuing them, it can inflate their ego and make them less likely to settle with a man that they would have settled 50 years ago when "dance hall days" had limited options of available young men. It also can turn them against men in general. Because if 10,000 young women are after 500 elite men. They might score a date with one, but they will just be a "philly" in the studs stable. The playboy dating them 3 times, having sex and then "ghosting" them.
I hope.. really hope I am wrong about this analysis. That maybe the dating app will be augmented by capitalism, or its use will be just a fad. But this growing misogyny from young men towards young women is a new thing in society and I believe at it's core is mate selection from dating apps.
It would be a great social experiment for young men and women to enter Cheers..with a no phones protocol! They will have to check them off at the door, mix and mingle like back in the day.
That would be interesting.
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