Location of Rhoda's apartment - Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion

[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

Tonight in either the third or fourth episode of season 3, Rhoda stands just outside Mary's door and points up an out-of-our-sight stairway that leads to her apartment. Now I'm trying to figure out how there can be room for even that landing, because judging by the exterior shots of the house, Mary's windows take up most of the side-to-side space. Can we see that small stained-glass window from the outside?

Maybe the stairs are in the Twilight Zone?

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

Looked very carefully last night, and there may actually be room for the landing (if not the stairs), but I'm definitely NOT seeing that little stained-glass window from the outside of the house in a night shot -- even if the stairwell light is turned off, it should show as a dark area against the white siding.

Of course I've seen siding applied right over small windows in old houses. Now I'll need to pay attention to whether we see sunlight coming in through the stained glass.

Added: Nope, the siding definitely covers that area. So either they just sided over the window, or else it's not actually a window -- maybe a decorative light fixture?

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Some good theories, but as for the stairs, the staircase going up leads to Rhoda's apartment. We see this in several episodes such as the one when the two women are not speaking because of an argument. Mary is leaving her apartment and bumps into Rhoda who is coming down the stairs.

In another episode, Mary is locked out of her apartment (the key to her new lock doesn't work). She and Dan are sitting on the landing waiting for her father to come with a key. Rhoda comes home with Jonas (the guy she met at Dan's engagement party) and they go directly upstairs via the staircase that Mary and Dan are sitting on.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

OK, so maybe the stairs go up, then cross over above Mary's apartment, then come back down to Rhoda's?

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

You could be right! I'd honestly never really thought about the location of Rhoda's place. Every time I saw it I only wondered what possessed Rhoda (who was artistic and designed dept. store windows) to paint such a tiny space in that godawful, blinding shocking pink! And I like pink.

Such a small space would've looked much better and larger in a pale color such as off white, cream, tan, etc. Rhoda's place should've looked better. Makes me wonder what some of her windows looked like. lol

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

Yeah, her windows are probably pretty wild. But come to think of it, the whole point of department-store windows is to get your attention. And a window done in shocking pink should do that all right!

As I recall, Rhoda did paint Lou's living-room walls white. But that was a larger space. Maybe her apartment is so small that in order to get enough of her favorite color, she had to paint the whole thing pink. Or maybe she had a bucket of shocking pink left over from a department-store window?

The walls of her apartment appear to be made of bare lath (apparently covered with plaster only on the other side). Probably just about any color would have looked better than bare, very old lath.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Oh yes, Rhoda redecorated Lou's apartment. She did a beautiful job, but it was so NOT Lou! It was trendy, sophisticated and very urbane. It struck me as something a fashion designer or a stockbroker would have in Manhattan.

It just wasn't Lou's style at all. Remember how he seemed to be smiling and Mary thought he liked it?

When Rhoda left the room, he said something like, "I'm wincing because I'm being blinded!"

As for Rhoda's place, I love pink too. But in much smaller doses especially in such a small space.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

She did a beautiful job, but it was so NOT Lou!

Indeed! It looked to me like an upscale office or beauty salon. Besides which, Edie was out of town, and I think he said he wanted to surprise her! (There are many things you're allowed to surprise your spouse with, but I don't think a home makeover is one of them.) So he was a very lucky man -- well, lucky plus he had the sense to get their old furniture back and keep just the white walls.

I actually agree with you, in that I wouldn't care to live in Rhoda's all-pink apartment myself. But Rhoda and I clearly have different tastes, so I doubt she'd care to live with my rather sedate idea of decor either.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

In another episode, Mary is locked out of her apartment (the key to her new lock doesn't work). She and Dan are sitting on the landing waiting for her father to come with a key. Rhoda comes home with Jonas (the guy she met at Dan's engagement party) and they go directly upstairs via the staircase that Mary and Dan are sitting on.

We just saw that one tonight -- it's "The Courtship of Mary's Father's Daughter," and you're absolutely right. The stairs go parallel to Mary's apartment wall for just a few steps, then take a sharp turn and head for a point just above the wall. So at least they're heading in the right general direction to get to Rhoda's place.

All I can figure is that they referred to Rhoda's place as "upstairs" in the pilot, then later on decided to put her in that cute little turret, by which time they were stuck with calling it "upstairs," even though the turret clearly was not.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

I've now decided that the stairs that go up from Mary's landing lead to a doorway onto the roof of that gable. From there, you climb on up, then down again, then walk across a bit more roof to Rhoda's turret. They REALLY didn't think that layout through, did they?

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

No they didn't! I think the show could have gotten away with it IF they hadn't shown the outside of the building where Mary lived. Or else they could've found another house that clearly had a third floor!

Did you ever hear the story about that house and its owner? Funny and strange. It's on one of the MTM DVDS. After having her home used in the intro for several seasons, the woman decided she wanted to be paid for use of her home. There were some plans to negotiate with her. But then the woman decided to hang an "Impeach Nixon" banner on the front of her house so the studio wouldn't use it anymore!

Getting back to the location of Rhoda's apartment. In the first episode (I think it's the first one), they clearly intend for her place to be directly above Mary's. Remember at the conclusion, Rhoda seems to know all about Mary's visit from her ex-fiance.

She finally admits to Mary (as she is pointing to the air duct near the door), "You have an air duct that goes AAAALLLL the way up to my apartment."
In that case, Rhoda's apartment should have been directly above Mary's. Or else it was one crazy, twisting duct that took a detour! lol

Of course MTM wasn't the only show where the front of the house in the opening credits didn't match the layout of the building in the show. On All in the Family, the camera zooms in on 704 Houser Street and that house only has a stoop and no porch. In some episodes Archie and/or Edith are seen outside on the front porch.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

This is a multi-part response. Here is Part I:

... the show could have gotten away with it IF they hadn't shown the outside of the building where Mary lived.

Oh, for sure! But they DID show the house right from the beginning, and (based on her windows and balcony) they clearly meant for Mary's apartment to be on the third (top!) floor -- leaving nothing "upstairs" except for the roof. Yeah, if they had left the overall appearance of the house up to our imagination, we could easily have made sense of it. Or alternatively, they could had shown us the exterior but not referred to Rhoda's apartment as "upstairs." Either way would have been fine. But instead they gave us TWO carefully-detailled houses (the real-life exterior and the made-up description of the interior) that were simply not reconcilable.

Did you ever hear the story about that house and its owner? Funny and strange. It's on one of the MTM DVDS. After having her home used in the intro for several seasons, the woman decided she wanted to be paid for use of her home.

Yes, I read that she got tired of all the tourists wanting to see where Mary lived. And they weren't just hanging around and taking pictures -- some would actually ring her doorbell and ask to be given a tour! I don't think I'd care to live like that either. I guess she considered taking payment for the inconvenience, but then decided it simply wasn't worth the bother.

Please stay tuned for Part II.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

And Part II:

[Rhoda] finally admits to Mary (as she is pointing to the air duct near the door), "You have an air duct that goes AAAALLLL the way up to my apartment."
In that case, Rhoda's apartment should have been directly above Mary's. Or else it was one crazy, twisting duct that took a detour! lol

Yeah, the air duct probably runs parallel to the stairs!

I suspect that the producers assumed nobody would notice. I never did, back when I was watching the show on CBS on my 11" black-and-white portable TV. As for other occasional inconsistencies (such as the names of Lou's daughters) -- people would see each episode once or twice and that was pretty much that.

But then syndicated reruns got to be a big business. And then video tapes. And DVDs, and Blu-rays. And B-I-G television screens!!! People started noticing things. And they could say, "Honey, could you run that last scene again and freeze when they show the ...." Just about all of our old favorite TV shows are getting that sort of scrutiny nowadays.

On All in the Family, the camera zooms in on 704 Houser Street and that house only has a stoop and no porch. In some episodes Archie and/or Edith are seen outside on the front porch.

At least that one's a little easier to explain that Rhoda's "upstairs" apartment. How's this: The view where they zoom in was how the house originally looked. Then the Bunkers decided to replace the stoop with a real porch, but the show kept using the old zoom-in view.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

I suppose you could say that the Bunkers remodeled. But there really was no room to replace the stoop with a large porch. It would have had to extend into the sidewalk.

The layout of the Bunkers' second floor is more of a puzzler to me. One time Archie was listening to the Stivics argue. He was listening at the wall right behind his bed's headboard. But in a later episode, Theresa, the Bunker's border was going into the former Stivic's bedroom and it was across the hall from the bathroom. Archie and Edith's bedroom would have had to have been way off to the left.. But it appeared that there was only one short hallway.

Probably sounds confusing, I know! But I recall that the positions of the bedrooms ( from various episodes)just didn't make sense from the layout that we saw. Of course as you wrote, years later we could scrutinize all the details because of VHS tapes and DVDs.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

I suppose you could say that the Bunkers remodeled. But there really was no room to replace the stoop with a large porch. It would have had to extend into the sidewalk.

I was afraid you were going to say that! OK, are your sure they weren't sitting on their BACK porch?

Afraid I have no guesses as to their upstairs -- about all I recall about that is the sound of the toilet flushing!

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

LOL I thought you were going to be afraid of that! No, it was their front porch. There were a number of times when one of the Bunkers was leaving and we saw them go out the front door to the porch. Remember Edith's Aunt Iola? Archie was taking her to the bus station. They went out the living room door and were on the front porch.
Oh well, that's TV for ya!

Speaking again about MTM and the layout of the apartments, I always thought it was strange that Mary had to go through her bedroom closet to get to her bathroom! The place did have limited space , so it was probably just supposed to be a hallway. With no other room for a closet, she probably just converted the hallway into one.

With the huge wardrobe Mary acquired, it had to have been one HUGE hallway.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

Re: Bunker porch -- I found a blog with photos of that house (some current shots and some screencaps from the show): https://www.scoutingny.com/stopping-by-archie-bunkers-house-in-queens/ I think the "Norman Lear" credit screen shows it the best.

I don't know what the set-back requirements are in Queens, but it looks like the distance from the front wall of the house to near edge of the sidewalk is something like 8 feet. That would be enough for a fine porch (the same as mine, in fact), assuming it's legal to build out that far. You'd first have to remove the stoop, of course, and then in order to avoid using part of that distance for new steps, the porch would need to stop a few feet short of the driveway to allow for the new steps (heading sideways, down to the driveway).

As for Mary's bathroom/closet combo: I think it was built that way. For one thing, most towns where I've lived *require* one closet per bedroom. Also, I think hers was that way in the pilot. Oddly enough I once encountered just such an apartment (only smaller, since it was in Honolulu, where everything costs more). My thought at the time was that (especially in that humid climate), having one's clothes exposed to extra-high humidity every time one took a shower could NOT be good for keeping one's clothes fresh-smelling!

But maybe there's a full-length solid door between Mary's closet and bathroom. And I think the door between her closet and living/sleeping/kitchen area is kind of "breathable." So that should be better for her wardrobe, compared to the Honolulu apartment, which I kinda think had it the other way around.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Interesting info about closet space. The town I grew up in definitely did NOT require one closet per bedroom!

The house we lived in when I was a child had only one tiny closet. It was in our parents bedroom. We had two other bedrooms and my mom used to tear her hair out trying to find places to hang all our clothes! We had a clothesline on the landing leading up to the attic. Finally my mom insisted our dad build a big closet in my bedroom (that sure cut down the size of my room, ha ha!)

The houses in our town were built around the early 1900's and most people didn't have a lot of clothes anyway. They hung their work clothes on a hook and they had one good outfit for church on Sunday. I remember my grandmother saying she had school shoes and a pair of shoes for church. Most of the time she and other kids went barefoot.

Speaking of closets, did Rhoda even have one? I remember seeing her clothes hanging on a rack in her apartment. She really did live in a cramped space. Wonder where HER bathroom was located!

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

The town I grew up in definitely did NOT require one closet per bedroom! The house we lived in when I was a child had only one tiny closet. It was in our parents bedroom. We had two other bedrooms

You're right, and my own first home had only one closet (in the hallway). I've searched the internet, and there are apparently no states that required bedrooms to have closets, although some local jurisdictions (which I've encountered here and there) may have such a rule. So I stand corrected -- depending on local regulations.

However, Mary's apartment is very chic, so whoever created it (when the house was converted into apartments) would surely not have omitted such a basic feature as a closet. Therefore I'm 99.6% certain that the closet has been there ever since that apartment has existed. A "walk-through" closet is admittedly unusual, but (as mentioned above) I've encountered one in a real-life small apartment -- and an internet search for "walk-through closet" brings up lots of references.

The houses in our town were built around the early 1900's and most people didn't have a lot of clothes anyway. They hung their work clothes on a hook and they had one good outfit for church on Sunday....

I've encountered those closets in Boston. Some landlords have tried to turn them into modern closets by simply installing a rod, but the hangers end up at a slant because there isn't enough room for them to hang at 90 degrees to the rod. A pain in the patootie!

Good question about Rhoda's place. I don't recall any closet either. As for a bathroom -- is it possible that her space is considered merely a room-for-rent, and shares a hall bathroom with other such rooms? That could be one reason why she had been so eager to move into the apartment that Mary ended up with.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Sharing a bathroom with other tenants? Not something I'd look forward to! lol But who would Rhoda be sharing with anyway? Besides Mary, I can only recall one other tenant and her apartment was below Mary's.
I don't remember the title, but Mary only met her when she was moving out to get married. I think it was the episode where Ted wanted to rent the apartment and Mary was aghast at the thought of Ted as her neighbor.

Ted certainly wouldn't be renting a place where he had to share a hall bathroom.

Getting back to closets, TV shows really place fast and loose with indoor space. I've been watching some of my Bewitched DVDs. In the Stephens' kitchen there's a broom closet by the back door. Other times it's a laundry room.

There's an episode where Endora calls for Serena and the two women are in the former closet, now a laundry room, talking. There's no way that a big laundry room would fit in that small space, but that's TV magic.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

I think the show could have gotten away with it IF they hadn't shown the outside of the building where Mary lived. Or else they could've found another house....

We've been watching the show on DVDs, and recently started season 4. In "Love Blooms at Hemples," they once more show an exterior view of Rhoda's apartment -- and Hubby and I simultaneously said "Wait a minute!" and backed up and looked again. Rhoda's place was clearly one floor higher than Mary's!!!

I wondered how I could ever have thought otherwise, but a quick online review of the usual exterior shot confirmed that they used to be on the same level. People had commented on the change in various other forums and blogs. This was at the time when the actual owner of the original house had thwarted their attempts to film more exterior shots. They eventually had Mary move into a regular apartment building for that reason, but in season 4 they simply used a different (but similar) house -- one where Rhoda's turret really is upstairs from Mary's place. Thanks to Schmoe56789, here's a screen cap of it: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/schmoe56789/vlcsnap-93253.png

Some of the commenters claim that it was actually a model (or even an off-the-shelf doll house), which is possible. But it seems like that would have been more work than simply finding a similar-looking real house -- preferably NOT in Minneapolis, so nobody would know where it was and nobody would bug the real owners. Maybe something near LA, for filming convenience.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Thanks for posting the link. I just live for that type of trivia about TV shows!

We discussed the woman who owned the original house and I can understand why she didn't want her home used in any more episodes. Tourists would ring her bell and want to have a tour? Some people have a lot of nerve. And they're dumb too. Did they really think she would be able to show them a replica of Mary's apartment inside HER home? Duh

I think the owners of the house used as Southfork on Dallas had a similar problem with gawking tourists.

The nerve of some people is believable though. Every May our town has what's called "The Heritage Festival". One of the main streets has booths running for several blocks. There are food sales, memorabilia, etc. I live on that street but I am luckily way at the end. The festival stops short about two blocks away.

I have a friend who is not so fortunate. Her house is right in the middle of the festival. She has told me how some people at the Fair would ring her doorbell and ask to use her bathroom!

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

I can sympathize with people needing a bathroom ASAP -- but doesn't the festival provide porta-potties?

I've been paying more attention to the revised house, and am starting to think it may be a model after all, because they show Mary's lamp inside the window in night shots. I suppose it could be a matte shot, but that would be tricky on the zoom shots that they tend to use. So unless they took Mary's lamp to somebody's real house at night and asked them to put it in the upstairs window for them to film -- well, making a model might actually be simpler!

We've just started Season 5, and Mary is still in her original apartment, so I assume they'll continue using the revised house/model for a while longer. even though Rhoda has disappeared from the show without a trace. I see there's an upcoming episode where Lou moves into her turret, though.

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[–] [email protected] (5854) 2 years ago

Yes, there are porta-potties at the festival. There's also a convenience store on the same street. It has a restroom. I don't think I'd like strangers knocking on my door to use my bathroom!

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

On second thought, I'm starting to revert to my "real house" opinion. There seem to be only a few shots of the "revised" house, including one night shot with a lighted lamp in Mary's window. They vary it by starting at different points in the footage, zooming at different speeds, etc., but just from watching the episodes, it kinda looks like the same basic film to me.

If it was a model, they'd be getting creative with different footage, wouldn't they?

I'm a bit surprised that there isn't more online talk about the switch to a somewhat different house. It was used throughout seasons 4 and 5, up till Mary moves to an apartment building in Season 6, but most people don't seem to have noticed the switch, and keep quoting the original address. I guess they did a good job finding a near lookalike -- even though the difference is obvious once you know about it.

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

Last night on "You've Got a Friend" (the one where Mary has a "date" with her father) they once more showed an exterior view of the house and then zoomed directly into Rhoda's little turret apartment (which they continue to refer to as "upstairs" from Mary's).

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[–] brux (14724) 2 years ago

Rhoda's apartment is clearly in TVLAND! ;-)

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[–] CarolTheDabbler (570) 2 years ago

By Jove, I think you've got it!!!

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[–] brux (14724) 2 years ago

LOL ... TVland is like BBC Dr. Who's Tardis space-time Police call box ... it can be any shape on the outside, and any size on the inside. ;-)

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[–] xanthas (3215) 2 years ago

I believe it's located somewhere in the region of Greg Brady's attic bedroom.

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[–] DesertDingo (36) 2 years ago

Rhoda Morgenstern‘s apartment Mary Tyler Moore show episode some of my best friends are Rhoda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNxy_GFiLZA