A HUGE part of the success of "The Music Man," is the blatant sexuality of the piece, but tastefully done in a way that went right over the heads of kids, but that adults could perfectly understand. Nothing graphic, but THERE, with a capital "T" Meredith Willson gave credit to his audience to know what was what, even in 1957, when he wrote the original stage play. And Steve, Marian did NOT go to bed with Miser Madison, shocking the living hell out of Harold, when she called him "Uncle Maddie," who had been her father's best friend. She was NOT "the sadder but wiser girl," flabbergasting Harold, but not stopping him from his ultimate goal: to seduce Marian, at the same time realizing that she was genuine, and not doing a sexual tease. SHE DIDN'T KNOW HOW. As I said in my previous post, Marian did not know how to conduct herself with a man, and was obviously scared and inexperienced. She was TERRIFIED about going to the footbridge with Harold, as she "had never been to the footbridge with a man in my life," and was freaked out at the very thought. Hence the gentle... and gentlemanly way Harold gradually seduced her, and wound up being seduced himself. He was in love with Marian BEFORE he went to the footbridge, but could not admit it to himself. And then shock of shocks, Preston open-mouthed kissed Jones on the footbridge, NOT usual in those days, not noticed by kids, but taking adults aback. And, from a woman's point of view, Marian WAS clearly going to give her virginity to Harold anyway, and you can BET it happened after the parade, lol. She could hardly wait, and well they WERE in love. Harold would have to be extra gentle and uh, careful, but we knew he would be, judging from the tender, but intense way he gazed at her on the footbridge, and the whole tenor of his careful seduction. Again, the viewer does not get to see it, thank God. Willson left that to our imaginations. Also, when they danced the Shipoopi, ALL the dancers lifted their partners up, showing the ladies' thighs... including Harold and Marian. All of the other guys are smiling during the dance, but Harold is DEAD SERIOUS, and unsmiling, holding Marian in a very tight, sensual, but still gentlemanly embrace. We got the message, and at the end of the dance when she sits on his knee, he looked like he wanted to jump on her RIGHT THEN, lol. WHOA!!! Harold Hill was SEXY, no two ways about it. One of the sexiest characters ever put on film, even if he was a con man, Willson made his character gentle, considerate, hilarious, and someone who brought culture and joy to River City, but sexy, just the same. And Robert Preston hit this one right out of the park. And, he was one of the most magnetic, sexiest actors EVER. He was VERY sexy in this. And, many of the male posters say Shirley Jones was "yummy," and sexy, so there you have it. A very beautiful and sexy pair. And Preston was to die for in that beautiful white suit.
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steven_torrey
14 years ago
We are on the same page here. Robert Preston is sexy in a viril sexy way; unlike Matthew Broderick who is 'pretty' as so many modern actors are 'pretty.' Leonardo DiCaprio, Charley Sheen, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Robert Redford. etc. Paul Newman, Cary Grant were handsome in that virile handsome way. Tyrone Power was pretty. The difference between 'pretty' and 'handsome' is not to be dismissed for the (sexual) impact they have on the audience. I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't drool over Paul Newman.
In the Shipoopee dance, the director makes a point, an aesthetic decision, of having one of the girls thighs, as she is being lifted by her partner, point directly at the camera--straight on so the audience sees what is going on; not a hint at what is going on but a direct statement. (I would have to check the film again, but I'm not certain that Robert Preston and Shirley Jones are in that dance sequence; I don't beleive he lifts her off.) I might add incidentally, 1912 society may very well have adopted dance crazes developed and refined in New Orleans brothels; and the Shipoopee sequence is about new dance steps, and where would those dance steps originate but the New Orleans brothels. Just saying, just keeping it real.
The other important point is con man as psychopath or sociopath personality. Granted they have charm to the gazoos but the basis for much of that charm is this pathological element. An indifference to truth, indifference to the results on other people of their behavior, thier ability to mirror themselves to the person their conning. Sincerity, they can fake sincerity. Nobody minds the con artist who wants to tell you the earth is flat. But when the con artist (psychopath/sociopath) wants to steal your identity or your banking account... Bernie Maddow did his business for 30 years with such charm, few people were able, or willing, to see beyond what was essentially a shell game.
Did Marian give herself sexually to Miser Madison? Town folks think as much. Would Marian confess to such behavior? In real life we know people who have illegitimate children and never tell their subsequent spouses; that behavior is not the world of fiction. Miser Madison being older would of course not go the footbridge, after all, he has a certain dignity to maintain as an older man, not a randy teenager; this dignity is what would appeal to Marian.
Sex for woman has always been problematic. In those days, in that day, and still in this day. Preganancy or sexually transmitted diseases (often asymptomatic in women) are real consequences of sexual activity for women. And reality for women with multiple sexual partners is loss of value--yes, value--and subsequent marriageability . (Hence, Marian not willing to share her sexual history. She would not be the first woman to go to her marriage disguised as a virgin.)
And this is why Harold Hill as con man --psychopath/sociopath-- is so important. For him, Marian would be one more notch on his belt. He asks her toward the end of the film: "What have you heard?" Her responsse to him for accussation from the anvil saleman re Harold Hill doing 102 piano teachers--and more--suggests that she knows from Harold Hill because she herself has a compromised past. That he has fallen in real love with Marian was unanticipated by him; he comes to care for Marian and Winthrop which redeems him from being a psychopath/sociopath.
This erotic impulse of the movie provides psychological motivation for the movie. But the central moment of the film is Winthrop transformed from withdrawn to someone willing to communicate. "The Music Man" is a surprisingly dense movie--as "Road to Perdition" is dense--in a way that "West Side Story," or "Sound of Music," or even "Oklahoma" are not dense. The erotic impulse appeals [sub rosa] to the audience and plays a large part of the movie's success as an aesthetic. It's more than good music and a good story line; it is good music with an overt erotic story line.
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thehair100
14 years ago
Ah yes, Preston was sexy in a VERY virile way, very masculine, as opposed to the girly-boys of today. Women wanted to run their fingers through his rich, curly, chestnut brown hair, lol. He was not pretty but very RUGGED, and craggy, and that's where my taste in men lies. Preston was NOT the best looking man or the best built, by any means. He was constantly going up and down in weight, even when he was young, but in "The Music Man" he kept it off, thank God, and was in prime condition. And he was to die for in that beautiful white suit at the Sociable, and especially later, at the footbridge. Pres in that stunning white suit is one of the most endearing romantic, to say nothing of erotic, sexual images ever presented on screen. Few man can wear a white suit and not look utterly ridiculous, and unmanly. What set Preston apart was that that was something so gentle and sweet about him. Combine that with tremendous virility, and it's cinema magic. He was a man could show tenderness, and not be thought of as weak and unmasculine. Have you ever seen anything as gentle and moving and POETICALLY MASCULINE, as Preston in the footbridge scene? He was ill-served by DeMille in his early career.
I just resaw the film, and yes, Preston and Jones ARE in the Shipoopi segment, and he clearly DOES lift her up, as do the other dancing couples. You plainly see them, as he is the only one wearing a white suit. And it does look like a modified version of the Can-Can.
Marian did NOT give herself sexually to Miser Madison, regardless of what the whole town thought. Meredith Willson back then said she didn't, and in the novelization of the movie he made back then, he said the same thing. Shirley Jones herself has said that she didn't, and was directed to play Marian as a blushing virgin, lol, and it worked. Who are we to argue with them? And Steven ANY woman, regardless of her sexual experience, would be freaked out to learn that the man she loved had seduced every music teacher in 102 Illinois counties. But you are right about Harold redeeming himself, and he didn't even know it was happening. From the beginning, he was strangely drawn to Marian and her family. He clearly liked Mrs. Paroo, and was touched by Winthrop. Maybe in the beginning he was using them to get to Marian, but I do agree with you that he was not a psychopath in the Bernie Madoff mold. However, in spite of himself, and certainly not intentionally, Harold brought joy, culture, and happiness to River City, bringing Winthrop out of his shell, and most importantly, bringing Marian out of HER shell, teaching her to love... and teaching HIMSELF to love in turn, and to discover a humanity in himself he never knew existed. He ended Marian's loneliness forever... and his OWN in the process. All making him a candidate for redemption. There is no way you can redeeem a nutcase like Madoff.
And again, what an erotic film, beautifully and poetically done.
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14 years ago
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thehair100
14 years ago
But do you really think Marian would have slept with Harold right after the parade - if they weren't married?
You do make some VERY good points. Although I was half-joking when I wrote that, I do think it was likely that they would have gotten it on RIGHT after the parade, as they couldn't wait, and even though it WAS 1912, there were still ways back then of preventing children from being made, and doubtless Harold knew ALL of them. They were both in love, which would make it different from Harold's usual conquests. It would have happened anyway if Marcellus hadn't have intervened when they were on the footbridge. And then especially after Marian had saved Harold from being tarred and feathered, and they realized how much they BOTH loved each other. Harold would have to be extra gentle and uh, careful, but we knew he would be, judging from the tender, but intense way he gazed at her on the footbridge, and the whole tenor of his gentle and careful seduction. The original play and Willson's novelization, BOTH of which I saw and read had the ending a little different than the movie. It shows Harold and Marian ALONE onstage in the empty gymnasium I think, "still locked in each other's arms," was how Willson put it, as the curtain falls.
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14 years ago
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thehair100
14 years ago
Such a sweet ending - I did wonder how long they stayed in that classroom together. ;D
Long enough to get their wits about them... and then to head over to Harold's hotel room right away. I doubt they would do anything right on the gym floor, but who knows? Probably not, as Harold was not that crass, and was a sophisticated gentleman of the world. Since they had been up all night, and God, what a wild night it turned out to be, they may have just crashed unto the bed, but then when they woke up, well we know what happened. Or maybe they wouldn't have crashed immediatly, but the end result would be the same.
Harold would have had a practical reason to use contraceptives at least some of the time - given the difference in his and Marian's ages, he was likely to be the first to go, and probably wouldn't want to leave the woman he loved with too many children to look after alone.
He also wouldn't want offspring from the music teachers, AND girlfriends in the 102 Illinois counties that he seduced, to be turning up. Marian was forgiving of his past up to a point. But, little out of wedlock kids would REALLY flip her out, no doubt. Plus, God knows how many other women Harold had seduced in his over 20 years of running cons. Plus hookers, loose ladies of all kinds, and just normal women like you and me who would find Harold sexy and attractive, lol.
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14 years ago
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thehair100
14 years ago
Hee - I still think they would have at least attempted to wait until marriage, as the townspeople would not be all that forgiving of extramarital shenanigans. If someone didn't spot them entering the hotel together that night, someone would have seen Marian leaving the next morning. And then she'd be right back in the rumor mill... ;D
After that wild night, I don't think Harold and Marian CARED what anybody thought, lol. Who knows, they could have also gone to an empty classroom, and locked the door, lol. Or, of course, the footbridge, oooohhh!!!! Those two were hot to trot, RIGHT THEN. Or they could have snuck over to Marcellus's, or wound up in the stable... the mind boggles, but I don't think they would haver waited, even back then.
I have met guys like Harold and loathed them too, but it doesn't mean that other women would not have found him sexy and exciting, lol. And if his sexual skill was anywhere close to we thought, well who knows WHAT we would do?
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14 years ago
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thehair100
14 years ago
Speculating is half the fun. However, I don't think Harold and Marian stayed alone in the gym, "locked in each other's arms" forever. Not for long, lol. Maybe after they left the gym they could have tracked down a preacher, or maybe that A-1 Goof Mayor Shinn could have married them, with Marcellus and Ethel as best man and maid of honor, and Mrs. Shinn cutting in with her usual snide asides, lol. If not, well then nature would take its course. But one way or another, the two would have consumated their love SOONER, rather than later, MUCH sooner.
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14 years ago
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thehair100
14 years ago
If Mayor Shinn had married Harold and Marian, he would have mangled the words to the ceremony so bad, that everyone, especially his wife, would have been falling over laughing.
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