MovieChat Forums > Inherit the Wind (1960) Discussion > we, creationists

we, creationists

posted 17 years ago by inco2007
104 replies | jump to latest

reading these boards i can see why we, creationists so rarely post here. because we are treated like retards, sub-humans, bigots, cavemen and hypocrites. Just look at the language you use, full of insults, disdainful, mocking and condescendent. Are we supposed to like that?! I know that you think that that's what animals like us deserve, but curious enough we don't like it. We could give you the same treat - I especially used to be a champion at that - but we're not allowed to play this game. So have fun explaining to each other how stupid and pathetic is to be a creationist, you'll get maybe once in a while an agnostic - that's a confused atheist in case you didn't know - daring to counter you but i trust you won't have any troubles straighten him up.

Now, what I came here to say:

You belive that we're so confused, lost and helpless in oceans of "unquestionable, undeniable, cross-checked scientifical proofs" for evolution (this formula and alike were used in the same obsessive manner in the former communist block countries - where i come from - to explain the utter superiority of communism over capitalism) and pray God to make them go away. To you, our pitiful little brains are not capable of understanding the wonderful array of scientifical facts all pointing to Evolution and we're trying desperately to explain them away.
Well, all this is only because you don't read what WE say about us and our beliefs, you only read what OTHERS say. You don't read our sites;to those of you who say you did, have you ever heard of "they will look and not see, listen and not understand"? How long did you read?What did you look for? What we have to say, our ideas, or how wrong we are? I you apply time-and-chance-will-do-it thing on what you read there then of course we're wrong, even God is wrong.

How come so many of you know that evolution is established on scientific facts and when asked about these facts you give answers that would make a savvy evolutionist blush? You want to know why is that? Because you LOVE their version of the story: nobody made Us, We owe nothing to nobody, We can do watever we want, We decide the good, the bad and the truth, We'll have it our way, We'll reign over everything, We'll take control over our genetic code, We'll master the laws of physics so We would reach to the stars, We'll be immortals and finally gods. You love evolution - humanism actually - because essentially says that god position is vacant and is ours to take. Satan wanted to do that before you - to be like God, then Adam, and since then everything's gone mad including the human mind which now can conceive that such a horrendously complex system as human body or brain could appear by chance, given enough time. I think that's God' punishment for your rebellion, he lets you believe such enormities. Of course, now blame Him for that!

If the arguments for evolution are so decisive how come the creation movement is on the rise? In this age with so many more "scientifical evidence" and advances of human knowledge than 50 years ago, shouldn't it be on its way to extinction at much faster pace than decades ago? you don't seem to realize that no matter how incompetent, insignificant or bad joke creation scientists look to you, your high esteemed paleontologists and paleobiologists look a lot worse to us. You're not aware of how encouraged we are by our own investigations of natural phenomena once we stopped buying the if-you-wait-enough-things-will-simply-start-happening thing. Again, that's because you don't read us.

When we say "Evolution IS religion", we're not playing words, we mean it and our children are taught this religion from our taxes too.

[–] flnyira 17 years ago

You shouldn't be treated as idiots; you believe wbat you believe and thats fine. But there is a place for that to be taught, and that is in church or temple, not in schools. Schools are a place for proven facts, not faith; faith has no place in a public school. Not everyone shares the Judeo-Christian religious beliefs; many believe in Bhuddism, or Shintoism or a whole bunch of other religious ideas, and the place for them is their respectivve houses of worship. Evolution can be proved in the worlds evidence around us. It doesn't mean there is no G-d; perhaps the slow method of evolution was His plan all along. But it CAN be proven, which creationism cannot.

[–] Roy_Bland 17 years ago

"If the arguments for evolution are so decisive how come the creation movement is on the rise?"

You may as well ask if tolerance is such a good thing then why is militant Islam on the rise?

The fact that an increasing number of "ignorant and stupid people" -- to quote Jonathan Miller -- are prepared to dismiss evolution means absolutely nothing. I would like to say I respect the views of those people, but the implied dismissal of logic and enlightened thinking deserves only contempt.

[–] dogfrod001 16 years ago

"If the arguments for evolution are so decisive how come the creation movement is on the rise?"

That's easy. Because intelligence is in decline in the United States. It works in cycles. This period of Fundamentalist inspired mediocrity will eventually pass, to be replaced by a period in which education and logic are once again acceptable. Then, it all repeats itself. Nothing is new under the sun.

There's a difference between being stupid, and choosing to be stupid. We in America cannot help it, we are taught to aim at low things.

[–] Jumbajookiba 16 years ago

Yawn, here we go again, another person with religious beliefs coming on here to criticise those who do not believe in the myths and legends of a book that is so obviously a work of fiction written to keep people obedient through fear.

Why is it that each religion believes it is the only true one. Isn't it up the relevant god, if he/she did exist to come and tell us so. Why does such an almighty being keep silent when all the mayhem and choas that is in this world due to all these religions fighting amongst themselves while the atheists look on in amusement.

Morals are inbuilt and taught by older responsible adults such as good parents. If morals come with religion then how do you explain suicide bombers, kiddie fiddling priests and evangelists who partake of drugs and adultery?

I am a four eyed evil genius.

[–] ZindinZidzan 16 years ago

Thas the big problem with this debate, their is no way to resolve it because you cant fight faith!

A normal rational person like you or I would accept science when the facts tell us to, when a scientific theory is conclusively disproved science abandons the theory and searches for another answer. To the religious mind however, evidence is seen as a test!, the more you present them with evidence the more they believe god is testing their faith and they get even more religious to prove to their god that they still believe....

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 16 years ago

I am an atheist. I haven't any issue with you or your beliefs, however allow me to clarify a few points of my position.

There is concrete evidence showing the adaptation of species to support Natural Selection. The Monarch Butterfly, the peppered moth, Galapagos' Finches, Croatian Lizards, etc. are all examples that we have witnessed first-hand. We can look at the adaptations and see the transitions. Scientifically Darwin's claims are backed up. That's not religion. There's nothing to worship....just to witness.

Evolution and a creator are not contradicting ideas as much as both sides try to make them. Evolution and the Bible are contradicting but the Bible contradicts itself so it doesn't say much. One can still believe that a creator had a plan that included evolution. The issue is that people want to view themselves above all else and to be the end result. Any other idea is rejected.

I do not mind the idea of Creationism (a subject I am very well versed on) being taught in school from a philosophical standpoint. I haven't an issue with the Bible being taught in school from a historical perspective. I haven't an issue of Theistic Evolution being brought forth from a philosophical standpoint. The issue I have with most Creationist websites (opposed to books) is that it moreso focuses on dissproving evolution or coming up with debates against evolution than supporting its own idea.

Books on the topic that attempt to find a scientific grounding fail in providing emperical evidence to support its claims. The standpoint of Creationists to prove that energy, life, and the universe spawned from nothing is not scientific. Science itself is defined as examining "naturalistic explanations of empirical phenomena" and does not concern itself with the super natural or metaphysical. Therefore, Creationism should never be taught as Science.

As you pointed out your tax dollars pay for class. Mine do as well. I would not want my child or your child to go to school to learn something that by definition is incorrect. Creationism as science is simply incorrect. Philosophy - FINE

If you want to express to your children that Genesis as it is told was the way in which the world was created - okay. 6000 years ago. Great! You can do that, but public school is not the place for that to be taught.

[–] nigeltext 16 years ago

Before Galileo and Copernicus 'people of God' were convinced that the Earth (not the Sun) was the centre of the solar system...indeed of the universe. Nowadays even bible thumpers have to submit to the knowledge that we live in the suburbs of an unremarkable galaxy. As such, in this day and age 'people of God' are convinced that they did not evolve from apes. So, given their track record, I give 'em all about a thousand years to get up to speed with the rest of us. Those of us who believe in a "god" who allows for our own intellect...as opposed to those docile types who prefer to act as robots of faith (oft times killing and maiming in God's holy name, amen). Wisdom takes time. So does the accumulation of truth for them that lack the confidence in themselves to steer their OWN pathway through life. Late.

[–] imabe 15 years ago

Just one question inco:

When you are sick, do you go to the doctor? Do you take medicine? If you don't believe in scientific study, why would you believe that medicine would help your illness?

Sorry, I got carried away. I guess I meant 3 questions. Oh. another question, what is your authority that creationism is on the rise? One citation will do.

I sure hope you don't have a cell phone or watch cable TV. To live with your creationistic theory, there should be no scientific advancements.

[–] vincentlynch-moonoi 13 years ago

First, we ought to be commenting on the movie, rather than getting into politics and personal morality.

But, since you brought it up: You're right, "we" do sort of belittle Creationists. But then again, you send us to hell.

And to get back to the movie, that's exactly shown so well in this film. "We'll hang Burt Cates from the sour apple tree..." Watch the placards in the film. Listen to the hate and bitterness of the "people". That's exactly why this film was so good. It shows the real sentiments on both sides.

[–] linop90 13 years ago

Because American creationists ARE a bunch of illogical tards.

Americans have warped religion and how it should be interpreted, like they have warped the political spectrum.

[–] mrthursdaynight 13 years ago

Here's a question for creationists:

If you were in the hospital, would you rather be treated by someone who graduated from a medical school that taught actual science, or would you rather be treated by someone whose medical knowledge is limited to the Bible?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

No shirt, no shoes, no SEXY.

[–] stevorino0 12 years ago

OP I must say this is one of the most entertaining posts I have witnessed in a long time. So thank you.

"we are treated like retards, sub-humans, bigots, cavemen and hypocrites."
Yes that's what you get for being willfully ignorant.

"Are we supposed to like that?!"
No.

"you don't read what WE say about us and our beliefs"
Oh yes I do. That is precisely how I learn how it is possible for an otherwise intelligent and sane human in this day and age to conclude that earth is 6000 years old.

"How come so many of you know that evolution is established on scientific facts?"
What's important is not what I know or you know -- it's what the years of science has shown. I am not a PHD scientist, nor are you. The difference I am smart enough to know who to believe. The church is an organized group of people, with an agenda dating back hundreds of years. "Scientists" are not some organized group of people with an agenda. The only thing binding them together is the unified passion for discovering more about the nature around them. THAT is their agenda. 99% of of biologists, archaeologists, chemical engineers, astronomers, physicists, etc agree that the earth is very old, and that evolution is strongly supported by evidence. THAT IS WHY IT IS SMART TO BELIEVE THEM.

"nobody made Us, We owe nothing to nobody, We can do watever we want, We decide the good, the bad and the truth"

Actually the only thing that evolution trumps is the bible... not God. Do not clump God and the bible together. Christians do not have the sole monopoly on God. That said, even if there wasn't a God, you still would be missing the humanist moralist viewpoint entirely.

"that's God' punishment for your rebellion, he lets you believe such enormities"

Yes... God punished us by allowing us to teach each other evolution...and you wonder why you receive such derision?

"If the arguments for evolution are so decisive how come the creation movement is on the rise?"
On the rise?! You on are a forum which is about a trial that occurred ALMOST A 100 YEARS AGO! All that you are showing is that, despite a century of added support to an already strong case of evolution, there are STILL people who refuse to give into that pesky thing called science.

"your high esteemed paleontologists and paleobiologists look a lot worse to us"
HAHAAHHAHAHA. This actually made me LOL. I won't even explain why this is so stupid, for I take it to be self evident.

"When we say "Evolution IS religion", we're not playing words, we mean it and our children are taught this religion from our taxes too."
Evolution is no more religion than science is religion, which it isn't at all. In 2012 we should not have to explain why they are fundamentally different constructs, but, alas, here we are. The bible is a book which has all the answers to everything, and has had them for hundreds, thousands, of years. The bible had the answers before we even had the technology to critically observe the world around us. Once we started intelligently observing the world around us, there began a collection of knowledge into which hundreds of intellectual "giants" contributed. So you see, the bible is an endpoint, a destination. In contrast, science is a METHOD, a way of intelligently discovering the world around you. So no, science cannot be a religion, because there is no book that one day just appeared that said "SCIENCE." It is the ongoing accumulation of the scientific inquiries of hundreds of incredibly smart people (some of which are religious by the way). THAT is why you pay taxes to have this taught to your children, because it represents the sum of human knowledge up to this point. IT IS SOMETHING TO EMBRACE AND BE PROUD OF, NOT A RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE. How dare you dilute the work of the great minds of our time by stooping their work down to the only thing you know: the insidious and stubborn naivety of a religion.

"Who are you and how did you get in here?" "I'm a locksmith...and I'm a locksmith."

[–] Roquefort 12 years ago

[science cannot be a religion] True, but the statement was [Evolution IS religion]
[the earth is very old, and that evolution is strongly supported by evidence]
That is why evolution is religion. It is a willingness to bet the farm on unobservable and unverifiable dating systems .
["Scientists" are not some organized group of people with an agenda]
Well, if their paychecks stop showing up, how many will tow the party line ?

[–] Jake-219 12 years ago

"Jesus loves me, this I know...
'Cuz the Bible told me so..."

That about says it right there, doesn't it?

From a fundie's earliest days he's taught that the Bible is the ultimate authority.

Kind of funny that this "ultimate authority" didn't even exist (at least the New Testament) in its current form until literally hundreds of years after a lot of discussion and argument and dissent between contending religious sects with different viewpoints. No, don't bother looking that up in the Bible; check out the history of the Church.

Obviously, much as it's distasteful to admit it, the history of the NT is still a lot more verifiable than that of the OT, which goes back a few millenia, and a lot of whose basic tenets can be traced to even more ancient religions. It's odd how often stuff like the Flood and a Virgin Birth and virtually everything else in the Bible can also be found in Hinduism or Buddhism or Zoroastrianism..."heathen" religions that even Christian and Jewish scholars admit pre-date the Bible.

These things should be looked at as something far more fundamental than historical fact, they're timeless lessons, something that should be reaching deep within all of us.

Instead, since the scientific revolution, we're all constantly at odds as to how to vindicate our beliefs. Atheists discount religion entirely; fundies NEED to prove that every word of the Bible is true.

Which Bible? WHOSE Bible?

Even to this day different Christian sects (and I'm not even talking about the Catholics, though I'm sure they're getting a little tired of being called the "Whore of Babylon" when nowadays they're arguably among the most tolerant religions on the planet, notwithstanding medieval history) have different books and different versions of the Bible.

So, which, pray tell, is the absolutely CORRECT one?

(The answer, of course, is, as always: yours. And it's your duty before God to "bear witness," to insist that everyone come to YOUR fold. Lotsa luck. Let me know how well you fare with the guys in that mosque down the street. And vice-versa, of course.)

By insisting upon the historical validity of whatever books you happen to have in your Bible, you do yourself the dual injustice of making something sacred into something mundane and showing that its meanings are invalid unless it can be submitted to scientific proof. Shame on you all.

That was never what it was all about.

(Read Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" sometime with an open mind; but then, fundies have a problem with that "open mind" thing.)

As for this ongoing nonsense about creationism vs evolution, it's really very simple: evolution is based upon the scientific method, creationism (or "intelligent design," if you prefer) isn't.

Evolution is based upon observation which led to more observation which led to hypotheses which led to testing which led to more observations which led to...and on and on and on, ad infinitum, to this very day. It's uncertain (but so is all of science; that's what science is all about), it's subject to being overturned (though, as time goes on and more and more evidence piles up, it becomes less likely), but it starts from observation and works its way from there. It's called SCIENCE, in case some of you don't know it.

Creationism, on the other hand, is based upon an original insistance upon something (the Biblical account...someone's Bible, anyway) and proceeding to "scientifically" adjust all the observations to the "facts": what the Bible says. You can wrap that in all the pseudo-scientific window-dressing you like, all the jargon, all the statistics you can find to bolster the case while overlooking others, it doesn't matter. The original motivation is completely UN-scientific, and can never be looked upon as such.

Some on here have said that they believe in creationism because it's the most logical way of looking at the world. Bull. The entire concept of evolution came about because it was a more logical way of looking at the world. Creationism is just the only way of looking at the world for some people, those who put more importance on finding a justification for their book than for their God.

Some say that evolution is an attack on Christians or creationists. Bull. Darwin wasn't a Marxist revolutionary trying to undermine the Church, he was a devout Christian with a father for a minister, and it tore him apart, seeing what his ideas had done. (And I'll bet at first it surprised him quite a bit, too!) No scientist worth his salt has EVER pursued research into evolution solely for the purpose of undermining the validity of some sacred book (whichever one you please).

Well...perhaps I speak a bit too loosely, here. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if some of them haven't taken some of the attacks from the fundies to heart, or wished that this country (I'm speaking of the U.S., by the way) wasn't still trying to teach our children according to principles that may well make us the laughing stock of the rest of the scientific world.

Still, they have to adhere to the scientific method or eventually be proven wrong. (And they often are. Believe it or not, scientists are human, too!)

Trust me: stop insisting upon literal interpretations and start putting more faith into the messages, and it will mean so much more, and not be built upon the straw that a literal interpretation of the Bible needs.

If the world wasn't created in seven days, if Moses didn't bring plagues upon Egypt, if Jesus didn't actually work miracles and wasn't the Christ as you know him...how would that negate any of the lessons to be learned?

It wouldn't, unless you can't believe the lessons unless the book is absolutely true, unless it's a desperate part of your believing.

The book (WHICH book?) is NOT absolutely true. It has numerous contradictions, as is. Don't waste your lives and faiths trying to cling to what's left of it.

Believe in the message, not in the historical accuracy.

Believe in God, and stop insisting upon perfection in an imperfect book. (And that applies to ALL religions...though you'd be surprised to know how many would already agree with that.)

P.S. (And sorry to have gone on so long) Let's get another thing straight:

No one was trying to figure out ways to bolster Darwin's argument. Quite the contrary, his ideas were anathema to most of the scientific community.

They were trying to DISPROVE him. And spent many, many years trying to do so.

We're not talking about some ungodly band of dyed-in-the-wool atheists here, we're talking about devout Christians of every persuasion who also happened to be practicing scientists and hoped that, by revealing more about the world around us, they were showing us more of God's handiwork.

They weren't out to attack Christianity (or religion), they set out to defend it!

And it didn't work. Which should say a lot to a discriminating mind: the best scientific minds of the 19th Century were all arrayed against Darwin, yet wound up having to eventually concede that he had his points.

THAT'S where the theory of evolution came from, not just from Darwin's observations, but from the fact that eventually even his most vocal enemies, the smartest people of his generation, had to concede something to his views.

If they thought so, who are we, as mere lookers-on, to say otherwise?

And, by the way, just to get on-topic again...great film! LOL!

(And please bear in mind that the film, and the play, is a fictitious dramatization.)

Losing your virginity, burying your pet and killing your sister...can take a lot out of a girl!

[–] truthpaste 12 years ago

Jake-219,

would just like to thank you. Not only because I wholeheartedly agree with you but also for the fact it wasn't a grammatical abortion like so much that is written here. Well done. I sincerely hope many read it.

Cheers!

[–] CocksureBurns 11 years ago

I second the thanks to Jake-219.

"Jesus loves me, this I know...
'Cuz the Bible told me so..."

I once had the eye-opening privilege to interview a theology student in the South, who said that Evolution is just a made-up theory, but that she 'knew' God exists because "He lives in my heart", and that she is "commanded to believe." How does one argue with that sort of infallible logic?

It was once thought ridiculous that the flat Earth is not the center of the universe, but then knowledge evolved. "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways" (1 Corinthians 13:11). Or pick and choose your own favorite passage, as most holier-than-thou fundamentalist Christians regularly do! Fortunately, Jesus never said one single word about 'the gays'.

Personally, I know Santa Claus exists, because he lives in my left ear, right next door to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who was married to the Tooth Fairy (yes, they're a mixed couple, deal with it) in a ceremony performed by Superman©, who can do anything. That's an indisputable fact.

On my last visit to Barnes & Noble, the Bible was filed under Fiction. Perhaps they evolved beyond their childhood.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi (but what did that heathen know. He's busy making salt in Hell with Lucifer. Mmm, salt! I am so going to Hell!)

[–] gtbarker 11 years ago

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise Creationists had been victimised and put on trial for their beliefs.

You people are incredible, have you learned nothing? If this film taught us anything, it is the religious zealots who use their bigotry and power to use the law to squash the right to think and believe what people choose to believe.

[–] kinglet 10 years ago

It's probably a lost cause to chime in on a thread that goes back years, but I just have to address some things creationists have said to me time and again.

<< How come so many of you know that evolution is established on scientific facts and when asked about these facts you give answers that would make a savvy evolutionist blush? You want to know why is that? Because you LOVE their version of the story: nobody made Us, We owe nothing to nobody, We can do watever we want, We decide the good, the bad and the truth, We'll have it our way, We'll reign over everything, We'll take control over our genetic code, We'll master the laws of physics so We would reach to the stars, We'll be immortals and finally gods.>>

What? There's nothing in the law of evolution by natural selection that lays claim to any such things, nor have I ever in my life heard a scientist or anyone else who accepts the evolutionary theory use it as justification for such attitudes.

<< You love evolution - humanism actually - because essentially says that god position is vacant and is ours to take. >>

No it doesn't. It doesn't address who created matter, life, or the universe nor does it require anyone answer such questions. You're entirely free to accept evolutionary theory and believe in God. Or Allah. Or any deity or none. That part is beside the point. Evolutionary theory is the recipe. It has nothing to do with the cook. Why must you pretend otherwise in the face of zero evidence? Nobody accepts evolutionary theory as some justification for megalomania.

,, Satan wanted to do that before you - to be like God, then Adam, and since then everything's gone mad including the human mind which now can conceive that such a horrendously complex system as human body or brain could appear by chance, given enough time. ..

You really need to read Darwin (it's on Google Books for free), or at least a valid summary of his theory - which, were it not for extremists exerting political pressure, would now be called the law of evolution rather than the theory. There is NOTHING that states evolution happens because of chance. It simply connects the dots between environmental changes that put pressure on living things and their successful (or unsuccessful) abilities to respond by adapting to those pressures.

As for the fossil record and the climate record and the dendrology record, even in their incomplete forms they all point to adaptation to pressure. Every year we find more pieces to the jigsaw puzzle; climate data in ice cores, new fossils showing intermediate forms, etc.

<< I think that's God' punishment for your rebellion, he lets you believe such enormities. Of course, now blame Him for that! >

God's been good to me. There's no punishment here. Religious training, the real kind like Jesus practiced, taught me how and when to pick up all the spiritual and moral tools I've needed to deal with success, failure, sorrow, happiness, grief, and love. What more does anyone need to feel peace and joy?