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Is It 'Racist' for White People to Do Good Work?


I see a lot of people on Twitter taking offence that Andrea Riseborough was nominated for 'Best Actress' over Viola Davis and Danielle Deadwyler, and now I see a lot of people griping that Harry Styles won Album of the Year at the Grammys over Beyonce (even though she won practically every other award she was eligible for). One can disagree with these nominations/awards, and think Davis/Deadwyler or Beyonce should have been nominated/won, but surely no more or less of a valid an opinion as the various people who voted for Riseborough and Styles.

Am I a 'racist' for even asking this question?

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bigtime

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“Am I a 'racist' for even asking this question?”

No, just a bit boring. I mean it’s not as if we haven’t seen a variation of the same post every other day here on MovieChat.

I think it would have been nice to see Davis get a nomination because she was great, but it wasn’t her year. I’m not losing sleep over it. We all know Blanchett will win anyway.

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No need to be rude. And from what I've seen, the points being made in relation to this matter are much less nuanced and balanced than mine, and seem to come from a staunch white supremacist or a staunch 'woke' militant POV. I think you're all so used to seeing such binary, narrow-minded opinions, that you struggle to recognise a post that is sincerely asking these difficult questions from a non-partisan and genuinely interrogative perspective.

And the fact that you feel obliged to say "It would have been nice to see Davis get a nomination" does imply that you're somewhat salty about Riseborough 'taking her place'.

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Not at all, I didn’t even know that person was nominated or that Davis wasn’t until you mentioned it. I had to Google the nominations list. It would have been nice because I saw The Woman King and enjoyed it. It’s no deeper than that. Let me repeat.. I’M NOT LOSING SLEEP OVER IT.

And how was I rude exactly? Because I think this discussion has been done to death already and I find it boring now? Did I insult you personally? You seem to have a very thin skin, I must say.

Honestly, I actually had more respect for you before you started patting yourself on the back for being so “nuanced and balanced”. If you have to rate yourself so highly to convince others, I’m not sure I’m on board with that.

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If you didn't know that Riseborough had been nominated ahead of Davis, then, with all due respect, how can you say that this topic has been done to death? My entire OP revolves largely around the fact that Riseborough was nominated ahead of Davis, so, with all due respect, I'm not sure what you mistook this thread to be about.

I wasn't trying to rate myself so much as make a distinction between what I'm addressing here, and what I've seen elsewhere on this site when it comes to social/cultural issues (which often amounts to a 'yah-boo' contest between partisan extremists on either end of the political spectrum, many of whom don't seem to have much conviction and appear simply to be motivated simply to take a side.

Newsflash for all of you here: That's NOT what I'm about. I hope to shake things up around here, and I hope you will all support me in the endeavour of injecting some more nuance, interrogation and analysis into these threads, as well as a healthy dose of civility and diplomacy, and much less partisan, binary, antagonistic rhetoric.

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Ok so now you’re being disingenuous. Look at the title of your thread. It really says it all. To me it’s quite clear that your intention was not to apply your self-proclaimed superior analytical skills to dissect the best actress nominations, especially when you spent as much time talking about Beyoncé and Harry Styles.

You’re simply fluffing up the “Is it racist if..” thread, that we have indeed seen hundreds of times before, with pseudo-intellectual claptrap to make it seem like you’re not just another instigator of divisive and decidedly boring pot stirring.

I’ve been here a lot longer than you and let me assure you that you are asking NOTHING new here.

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I was using two separate and recent cases to interrogate whether there is now a de facto assumption among some people that whenever a white person succeeds in a contest over a Black person, particularly a Black woman, it is an example of 'systemic unfairness'. I'm not making a judgement here, but it is a genuine, and, I think, fair observation, as much as it may bother some people or be interpreted as 'racist' (although you did quite quickly state that it wasn't the latter).

I'm sorry if my thread bothers you but as uncomfortable as the question may be, I'm genuinely intrigued as to the answer(s). I know I'd probably be crucified if I asked this question on Twitter, but I'm hoping we can have a less judgemental and possibly more nuanced discussion here.

I have long called out white privilege and male privilege, and acknowledged the systemic issues that Black woman particularly have to face, but I also wonder if it's reasonable to call out and question every situation in which a white person is pitted against a Black person, particularly a Black woman, and they come out on top, so to speak. Isn't it possible that the contest was in fact fair and not a case of systemic white privilege, or am I displaying my own white bias and privilege in asking that question? My apologies if you've heard this all before, but I still don't think these questions have been satisfactorily answered.

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I think I answered all that quite succinctly in my first reply when I said that although I personally enjoyed Davis in the Woman King, it just wasn’t her year. I see no need to start a race debate when it’s clearly quite a diverse nominations list as it is, even without Davis among the nominations. It could have ended there with a simple “ok” if you hadn’t got your knickers in a bunch about me being rude. If you want rude, I can do rude, but that certainly wasn’t.

I’m still not convinced that your intentions with this thread were as altruistic as you keep insisting, and if this thread picks up traction, I already know EXACTLY the type of responses we will start seeing here. Believe me they will far less nuanced than you supposedly wish to inspire.

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Then, with all due respect, it appears you suffer from a particularly 21st century ailment: the instinctive tendency to see the worst in people and assume their intentions are malign.

And I don't think I was particularly hostile about rudeness. I simply said "No need to be rude." Was that especially offensive or combative, or even a sign that I had my "knickers in a bunch"?

I'm not trying to start a race debate, but I do believe there are places to ask good faith, but difficult, questions. Alas, Twitter is NOT one of those spaces. And I'm not interested in the opinions of a right-wing echo-chamber at, say reddit or worse (not that I have an account in those places), but, to be fair, the regular membership here, although not always acting in good faith, does appear to be reasonably broad, politically-speaking, and less judgemental than what one finds on Twitter, where certain threads tend to be dominated by people of a single political persuasion (whether it be left-wing or right-wing, white supremacist or Black militant).

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She gets off on this. Somehow somewhere in this conversation it will turn sexual and depraved. That's her way of flirting with you. She's always seeking sexual attention from anyone with a heartbeat on these boards. You'll get used to it eventually.

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Newsflash for all of you here: That's NOT what I'm about. I hope to shake things up around here, and I hope you will all support me in the endeavour of injecting some more nuance, interrogation and analysis into these threads, as well as a healthy dose of civility and diplomacy, and much less partisan, binary, antagonistic rhetoric.


lol another political shill/sock has risen on moviechat.

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We all know Blanchett will win anyway.

I wouldn't count out Michelle Yeoh. She hasn't been nominated before and has been in the industry for decades. People may feel she's due for some accolades.

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True that. She could definitely pull out an “upset” win. Good for her if she does, it’s not as if Cate’s mantelpiece isn’t already overly crowded with awards at this point. She seems really sweet and genuinely thrilled to be finally nominated, it would be cool to see her take it out. Same goes for JLC.

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Any girl who can act and kick ass especially spanning many decades gets all my love.

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And fair enough too, buddy 👍

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What's wrong with you? It's black history month...have some respect. White people can't do good or be good at anything.

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And right on queue one of the usual politics-thread suspects spectacularly proves my point. This the type of nuance you were hoping for Harvey?

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No, of course not, but does that mean you or I have to sink to that level?

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You’re missing my point.

Dog whistle and they will come.

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LOL you are the only dog here

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Go back to politics. You’re not wanted here.

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Is that really necessary?

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Oh he’s only just getting warmed up. Steady yourself for a stream of misogynistic, homophobic, racist abuse.

This is is exactly what I was talking about. If your intentions were indeed as honourable as you say, you’re just asking for trouble by posting a thread with that sort of title.

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Sorry, but there may be some contexts in which it is wise to account for the lowest-common-denominator, but a public and anonymous forum, where we should be able to tackle any topic we want, is not, IMHO, one of them.

I mean, I certainly don't want to encourage and promote bigotry and nastiness (on the contrary, and would be quite happy to see such behaviour more stringently moderated), but I resent having to limit myself in terms of what I can and can't talk about, on account of potential bigots and bad faith actors. Like I say, there may be some contexts where one must account for such people; but there should also be places where one can be open and frank rather than compelled to say nothing.

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IDK but you're defending someone who is okay with grooming children in schools.

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So, don't ask difficult questions?

Perhaps I will eventually learn that lesson, but I hope you're wrong.

If you're right, it's a shame. It means this is yet another place where one can't have open and serious conversations.

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You can have an open and honest conversation here but the moment you have a different opinion from people like her you will be labeled racist or a homophobe. Even if you're just being patriotic supporting cops or believing in God...those three things will get you hated on this site.

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I hope it depends on the context.

On the face of it, even as an non-patriotic atheist who is very wary of law enforcement officers, I don't have a problem with anyone who is 'patriotic, supports cops and believes in God', and I'm equally wary of anyone who does. You're entitled to your opinion. Where your opinion potentially conflicts with people's rights (i.e. "I support cops [even when they kill/beat up an unarmed Black man]" or "I believe in God [and as a consequence I think abortion should be banned and trans people should be denied rights]") I have a big problem, but, like I say, on the face of it, you're entitled to your patriotism, your belief in God, and your support for police officers.

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What trans rights are being denied? You're speaking nonsense. Trans people have the same rights as normal people. Forcing a group of people to accept mental health issues as normal is not a right.

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Your bigotry is rather proving my point.

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Bigotry? Care to explain? LOL you're a troll.

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You're referring to trans people as 'mentally ill'.

As someone who is NOT trans, but does have a few mental illnesses (not that I have any reason to be ashamed of my neurotic conditions), I resent this fallacy.

Here is a medical explanation regarding the question of whether transgender people are 'mentally ill':

"No. Being transgender (or trans, for short) isn't a mental health disorder. If you’re transgender, it means that you have a different gender identity than the one you were assigned at birth. (Gender identity is defined as the personal sense of one’s own gender.) The desire to convey your gender in the way you feel most authentic is a normal aspect of human expression."

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And how am I a 'troll'?

An online 'troll' is usually someone who takes one rigid and absurd extremist position and keeps playing that strawman role ad infinitum.

I'll think you'll find from even my rather brief return to this site (after a few years absence) that my views are neither rigidly liberal nor rigidly conservative. Yes, I am a leftist, but I'm a leftist who thinks for himself, and is not afraid to ask difficult questions that bother those on the right *as well as the* left.

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You're just pissed because I gave the best answer for black history month. Don't be sour and get your panties all in a twist.

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The left doesn't believe white people have right to simply exist.

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Oh look! More nuance!!

I don’t like being the I Told You So guy, but….

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Anyone with conservative or wholesome values is an issue with you. You demonize an entire race of people because of their skin color. Unless they are gay then it's okay to be white. It's crazy you don't see how xenophobic and intolerant you are being. And the only reason you get so upset with the people on the right is that they are against killing babies, touching kids inappropriately, or mutilating the bodies of children. None of us should even be trying to convince you of how evil and wrong those things are.

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😂

You’re so stupid you don’t even know the meaning of the word xenophobic, it’s the fear of foreign people, dumbass.

As I said, go back to the politics section, your political bullshit is not wanted here.

Oh and I’ve said this before, but insinuate that I’m a pedophile and I’ll take your pathetic ass down. For the record, I am not the one who scours the internet for child abuse stories to share on a movie forum, that’s all you, you disgustingly vile excuse for a functioning human being.

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With all due respect, this isn't the rhetoric I was looking for, from *either* side, and it seems that *none* of you can be civil and reasonable with one another.

I don't agree with the statement "the left doesn't believe white people have tthe right to simply exist", but I would be interested in exploring that statement further, and getting to the nub of what they mean, because although I don't believe that statement is literally true, I also believe that there are some people who wholly resent ALL Black people and some people who wholly resent ALL white people.

I'm a staunch leftist, but the truth is, there are *some* far-leftists (or, more accurately, Black militants/Black militant sympathisers, because many such people aren't particularly left-wing when it comes to other issues, like LGBTQ+ rights, challenging capitalism, the environment, or even feminism; one Black militant I encountered on social media earlier today is a damn realtor, and another talks about being 'addicted to retail', hardly my idea of 'leftism'), who speak as if white people are an inconvenience *at best*.

I have a problem with *any* supremacist, regardless of gender, race, sexuality and ethnicity, and, assuming you are pro-trans rights, as I am (I'm guessing that's what ItsGood2BeRight is referring to when they talk of 'mutilating the bodies of children'), hopefully you are aware that many militant feminists regard trans women, or 'men cosplaying as women' as many of them put it, as a threat who basically have 'no right to exist'.

Sorry if my 'liberalism' is too 'centrist' and 'wishy-washy' for any of you, but I staunchly believe that EVERY human has the right to exist (not in an 'all lives matter' trollish sort of way), and no human should be resented simply for their identity, an identity they have NO control over. That's simply the height of irrationality and unreasonableness (i.e. to hate a creature, particularly another human-being, for something they have NO control over).

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/xenophobia
xenophobic: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

All whites are foreigners to the Americas dumbass. Republican policies that you hate are also foreign to you, which is why you fear civil discourse with the opposing side. I used the word correctly!

Also my people have been walking these lands way before Columbus and his boat arrived. Way before you were just a crunchy piece of sperm. It's you white liberals that are the real racist and bigots that are destroying democracy and American culture. And just a reminder I don't search for all those horrible stories I post. They fall into my lap because there are so many of them. One click and thousands of stories about trans and gay people being inappropriate with children will litter your feeds for days on end.

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Black is popular, but nowadays transgender/gay is faaaaabulous!!!

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It depends on who you talk to.

Certain parts of the media are still as racist as ever, and continue to pick on Black people, especially Black women in the public eye.

And trans people are especially demonised, and not just by the right-wing/conservative parts of the media, but by many militant feminists, and women's rights and mothers' rights organisations.

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From my understanding, the controversy over Riseborough isn't really about who else should've been nominated so much as it is about the suspect way Riseborough was nominated in the first place.

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Yes, but a significant number of people have complained that Riseborough's nomination had the knock-on effect of 'depriving Black women of the fifth nomination spot' (assuming, as many of us do, that either Viola Davis or Danielle Deadwyler were the next most likely nominees; although I am bemused that Riseborough should be blamed for *both* women missing out on the fifth and final nomination spot). I've seen people argue that the manner in which various white actresses lobbied for Riseborough was a demonstration of 'white privilege', and that none of the various white people, mostly white women, who essentially lobbied for Riseborough, would have done the same for a Black actress. I've also seen it argued that Davis and Deadwyler *deserved* the nomination over Riseborough 'because they campaigned much harder' (i.e. did all the chat show/interview circuits) and the 'studios spent more time/money on their campaigns than they did on Riseborough', as if that should be the test as to whether an actor is or isn't nominated, rather than the merit of the respective performances.

It's curious to see many Black people embrace the capitalist/materialist system (for example, some people have argued that because Beyonce and other POC sold more records than Harry Styles, *that* should be the test for whether they win 'Best Album of the Year'), and regard that as a fairer model for success than the present system.

I do have *some* sympathy for that argument. Record sales and studio lobbying/campaigning, do seem like a more objective and transparent basis for handing out awards, than some 'shadowy guild of individuals [many of whom are presumably still white men] making a choice based on their own personal preferences'. The problem is, these aren't awards for record sales (if they were, what would be the point of the whole nomination process?) or for who campaigned the hardest. They're awards for something that's admittedly more subjective and gut-orientated...

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...but arguably, much more interesting: artistic merit. And we can all argue the toss as to whether there is inherent bias, including racial, and gender, bias in these various decisions (although isn't this partly an argument as to why specific all-Black and all-female awards exist?), and clearly most of us hope that as things move forward, these various award-giving guilds and organisations will become more diverse and more representative of POC and other marginalised groups, and that the question of potential bias becomes a less potent one. But in the meantime, don't we have to have a little faith that the people making these decisions are doing so on good faith and because they truly believe the winners/nominees are *worthy*?

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FYI there are two issues behind the controversy that have nothing to do with racial issues.

1: The AMPAS has rules about hitting on people in person for votes, which Riseborough may have broken. I have no idea whether these rules are regularly enforced, or whether they dug out the rule book this year, because...

2: Every money person in Hollywood is pissed that a B-lister whose film bombed got nominated, because nobody is every going to make money out of her nomination, or her acting. They see it as a huge waste of a moneymaking opportunity, because in Hollywood the only thing that matters is whether somebody makes money.

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I don't disagree, but your sound arguments simply make a bigger mockery of all those people complaining about 'racism' in this instance.

Consciously or not, they're rooting for the big studios and capitalists who, as you say, are angry that a lesser-known actor in a lesser-known movie was nominated, and they can't make any money out of it.

But that's modern 'progressive' politics for you. Back in the day, progressives like me were proud to distance ourselves from the money men. These days self-identifying 'wokesters' LOVE corporations, and hate small businesses (possibly because they know that larger corporations, like Disney, are closer to their ideal, which is one single socialist entity controlling and dictating everything, which makes it easier to lobby for unifying rules and regulations). For Libertarian Socialists like myself (yes, we do exist. Just look at Noam Chomsky), it's dispiriting seeing so many self-identifying but deluded 'leftists' siding with the powerful execs.

It seems that a dream of a genuinely egalitarian society will continue to be on the back-burner for some time yet, because some people still feel entitled to their piece of the pie, and would rather splinter off into special interest groups than work as one unified whole in order to bring about a genuine change that creates equality for ALL. But I guess that's just my Bernie Bro white male privilege talking... *sigh* *eye-roll*...

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It could be that the AMPAS decided to review the rulebook because of the racial issues, or because of the money issues. Who knows.

Either way, I don't believe for a minute that you're a progressive, and I don't want to talk to you.

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I'm sorry I've offended you. Can you explain your reasoning? And I will try to moderate my behaviour.

But how is being *more* left-wing than the vast majority of society, particularly people who simp for corporations, make me 'less progressive'? I'm sorry, but I do not understand.

I have made two statements that you seem to object to. Firstly, that as a victim of both false accusations and assault, I believe I deserve to be given the same consideration as any victim, whatever their identity.

And secondly, that corporations and big business/money are bad things, and modern neoliberal 'progressivism' is not the same as the genuine article. I am a staunch feminist, supporter of BLM and all LGBTQ+ rights (which is more than many self-identifying 'leftists' and 'feminists' can actually say), but I also believe that a true progressive dedicates themselves to social change/social justice, as well as a truly egalitarian society that addresses the needs of ALL working-class and poor peopl, whatever their identity.

The only people who could possibly object are (1) conservatives/right-wingers and (2) faux-libs who are only committed to what caters to their own personal needs and not that of all society. I suspect it's the last part you object to, possibly as a woman. But be honest, am I 'wrong'? I may be a white man who benefits from white and male privilege, but I've never been rich and powerful, nor do I want to be, so I'm not being a hypocrite here. I'm not Clinton, or Clooney, or Biden (honest, they're not *all* of Irish-American extraction), in other words powerful, rich white men who preach progressive politics whilst denying Black people, women, gay people and other marginalised communities from the top spot. No, in the real-world, I work very hard in elevating Black people and/or women to positions of power and influence. If you have a grudge against privileged white men, those are the people you should probably start with, not GENUINE social-democrats...

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...and progressives like me (who keep a low-profile, as non-hypocrites tend to).

But please explain to me ANYTHING I've said that could remotely be construed as reactionary or conservative. Assuming you're right about me, that should be an easy task. :)

Thank you for your time. I hope you appreciate my civility and respect.

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Nope, I'm not going to give you the attention you want. Bye!

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I don't want 'attention'. I want civilised, reasonable discussions with civilised, reasonable people. I hoped that you were one of those people.

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No, you are NOT a racist, but the people complaining about white people succeeding ARE! The morons in the Woke Mob think EVERYTHING white people do is racist. They are dumb fucks and liars.

🤨

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