Explanation of they/them - General Discussion Discussion

[–] TexasJack (12516) 2 years ago

There are people who do not identify as male or female, hence the need for a pronoun that does not refer to either of the biological genders.

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[–] Bossdog677 (1553) 2 years ago

But they believe in evolution?

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

Nobody believe in evolution, just like nobody believe in photosynthesis.

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[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

What they really are is people who don't believe in the ridiculously narrow definition of "male (masculine)" and "female (feminine)" used in the current trans philosophy. They say that anyone who is masculine is male and anyone who is feminine is female, but the truth is that most people are a mix of masculine and feminine qualities.

So if I were young enough to take this philosophy of gender seriously, I'd be calling myself non-binary, because I'm about 50/50. But I'm not young enough to think that anyone has to identify as one sex or gender, I identify as myself and other people's ideas don't figure into it.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

It's pretty much trans people who don't identify as male or female because they feel gender is a spectrum.

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[–] Quasimodo (16388) 2 years ago

...because they feel gender is a spectrum.

So is mental illness.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

I believe so. I think there's a huge problem with separating that from a mental illness. If someone was anorexic, we wouldn't tell them that they looked overweight and that they should continue to lose weight. That would be dangerous. If someone was schizophrenic, I wouldn't tell them that really is Elvis that they see in front of them. No one would do that because you'd not only be enabling, but making them completely unaware of the problem. I don't see why we allow people to mutilate their bodies, or believe they belong in a different body just because they feel that way.

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

A person with anorexia has a distorted self-perception. People with anorexia can't draw themselves properly because they can't perceive themselves properly.

A person with schizophrenia loses contact with reality.

A person with gender dysphoria is neither of those. If the brain feminized during pregnancy but the body is male, that brain is gonna create a distress signal because of that mismatch. That person is perfectly aware of both reality and his/her body, but that's not gonna stop that distress signal. Transitioning shuts down that distress, that's why people do it. That's no more mental illness than having chronic pain.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

If the brain feminized during pregnancy but the body is male, that brain is gonna create a distress signal because of that mismatch.

That sounds like a mental illness to me. If the brain made me feel like an animal during pregnancy even though my body is human, am I an animal?

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

Then you're mentally ill too, because your brain has that exact same distress system. The only reason you don't feel it is because your brain didn't develop as one of the opposite sex.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

No. My brain aligns with how I was born. That's not a mental illness. If the "cure" to their problem is to believe that they are a different gender to how they were born,t that is no different than an adult who thinks it's a baby.

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

Is belief in God a mental illness in your opinion?

Beliefs are not illnesses, medicine only defines something as an illness if it is consistently harmful to your health

Beliefs or desires that are difficult for you to relate to or understand don't make them an illness

The way you feel about trans genders is exactly how your grand parents or great grand parents felt about homosexuals. It's not "natural", it doesn't lead to procreation, so it must be a disease

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

Religion isn't based on DNA from when you are born. If you are born with xx/xy chromosomes and you don't feel like you associate with the chromosomes you were born with, then it's a mental illness. If someone was born completely healthy but they feel like they're disabled, isn't that not someone who has a mental illness?

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

Religion is a lot of very specific beliefs, some of which go against all accepted science

Why are some beliefs that "go against science" considered mental illnesses and some are just personal beliefs?

Also, no offense but I can tell that you are neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist

What do you think qualifies you to decide who does or doesn't have a mental illness?

Do you know the process by which psychiatry decides what conditions to classify as illnesses?

And, again, why is homosexuality not also an illness? Sex is "objectively" a drive for procreation. Homosexuality cannot result in procreation. So why is that not also a mental ilness?

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

Why are some beliefs that "go against science" considered mental illnesses and some are just personal beliefs?

As I said before, why would we look at someone who thinks they're Elvis as crazy, but we're supposed to accept someone think they're a different gender. I personally believe they're both mental illnesses and should be treated as such.

Also, no offense but I can tell that you are neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist

What do you think qualifies you to decide who does or doesn't have a mental illness?

I'm not a rocket scientist but I can tell you what a rocket is.

And, again, why is homosexuality not also an illness? Sex is "objectively" a drive for procreation. Homosexuality cannot result in procreation. So why is that not also a mental ilness?

While I believe people are born gay, there is nothing on their DNA which determines that they are. All it is is a natural physical attraction to someone of the same gender. Sex being only for procreation from a religious standpoint.

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

1. That would be the case if someone with XY chromosomes insisted that they actually had XX chromosomes. That would be a delusion by any definition. But no trans person makes those claims. You are labeling people as mentally ill without even trying to understand them

2. Yes but you can't tell whether a rocket is defective or if it's merely a design that you know very little about. You are labeling people as having a disease despite knowing very little of how doctors determine what constitutes a disease

3. Who says that sexual orientation has nothing to do with DNA? You're absolutely wrong about that. DNA might not be the sole determining factor behind sexual orientation but genetics absolutely plays a part

4. Nope, sex is absolutely only for procreation. More specifically it's a controlled method of adding genetic diversity to offspring. It only feels good for the same reason that eating food feels good, it gives your brain an impulse to do it

There is no argument for labeling trans people as mentally ill without doing the same for gays. Trans people do what makes them happy, same as a person following the "irrational" drive to seek sex

It's a generational thing. I don't expect you older people to ever understand the nuances of trans gender ideas, but you are wrong to simply write it off as a disease

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

1. That would be the case if someone with XY chromosomes insisted that they actually had XX chromosomes. That would be a delusion by any definition.

Almost all of them are though. Trans women believe they are real women. How can they be real women if they have XY chromosomes?

Yes but you can't tell whether a rocket is defective or if it's merely a design that you know very little about.

It's the same way that I can tell apart a man and a woman just by looking at them. I don't need to be a biologist to determine that.

Who says that sexual orientation has nothing to do with DNA? You're absolutely wrong about that

You can dig up a corpse and determine if it's a man or a woman. You can't determine if they're gay. Obviously this works with straight people too.

Nope, sex is absolutely only for procreation.

You think everyone who has sex is trying to have a kid?

I don't expect you older people to ever understand the nuances of trans gender ideas, but you are wrong to simply write it off as a disease

Do you even know how old I am? But you pretty much admitted that transgender is an idea and not based on fact.

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

Trans women don't believe that they are real women. Or "cis" women. That's just you making assumptions that don't track with reality. Have you ever actually spoken with a trans woman and heard them say that they believe they have two X chromosomes?

No, not everyone who has sex is trying to have a kid. You are completely missing the point. I'm talking about why sex exists at all. Why it evolved and what survival function it possesses

This is my problem with anti trans people. They purport to be arguing on behalf of science but they're almost always total laymen when discussing science

Let me put it to you in the only way that matters: I don't decide what constitutes a mental illness. You don't decide. Committees of psychiatrists and psychologists gather every so often and deliberate on it

The current stance from the scientific establishment does not agree with you that trans people are all mentally ill

Not because they're being woke, it's because they have ethics that they follow and they need to be responsible about making glib assumptions

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

Trans women don't believe that they are real women. Or "cis" women. That's just you making assumptions that don't track with reality.

The reality:

Human Rights Campaign
https://twitter.com/HRC/status/1207675378325770246?t=YDGj7Fzw2B4zna9xWSUDfQ&s=19

Glaad
https://twitter.com/glaad/status/1208415856864223232?t=9dw0x8625AYw4lAqx7EdmA&s=19

Women's March
https://twitter.com/womensmarch/status/1549791243852464129?t=3aikJfBIyml3NE4SUNBinA&s=19

Random trans people
https://twitter.com/BlueFolf/status/1550560498403393537?t=MP6FYawAzDFASQ5a-oJuWA&s=19

https://twitter.com/lizzietweeter/status/1549814699528785920?t=iF1b14OlCN6hR66OQcGIig&s=19

https://twitter.com/sandyosullivan/status/1552304796312674304?t=Zbkk7y6YnkHVsh0z6zxJTA&s=19

I don't decide what constitutes a mental illness. You don't decide. Committees of psychiatrists and psychologists gather every so often and deliberate on it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria
Specialty: Psychiatry, psychology

Symptoms: Distress related to one's assigned gender, sex, and/or sex characteristics

Complications: Eating disorders, suicide, depression, anxiety, social isolation

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

If you wanna continue this convo start a new thread cause this one is getting weird

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[–] mirelurk (884) 2 years ago

Non-binary people, who are the topic of this thread, don't all experience gender dysphoria. Your arguments are all surface level google expert stuff

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

If trans women are real women, then "theys" should be real they's. And they're all considered trans.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

I disagree here. I know a few trans people and they are not "theys" The two trans women I know are she/hers and the trans man I know is a he/him.

The people I have worked with who are they/them, are those who don't feel that they fit into a gender stereotype, and are non gender conforming. I've also met some people who feel completely asexual. There is no sexual attraction to anyone, which is something completely different.

I get that you don't understand it, but I think you should leave it up to the scientists and the doctors, as to what is and isn't a mental illness.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

Sorry, I wasn't implying that all trans people are "theys". I meant that all "theys" are trans.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

I am saying you are wrong. I know quite a few people who identify as they/them who are not trans.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

I don't believe they are trans because there's no actual transition, but I've been told that they are and learned the hard way.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

Some trans people are they/them, some aren't. I'm saying that your statement

I meant that all "theys" are trans.

is incorrect. Most people I have met (and this is my small part of the world) who use they/them pronouns are not trans. They are non binary. So, while that may not be true for the rest of the world, it does show that not all "theys" are trans.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

I think that makes sense.

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[–] Kowalski (75528) 2 years ago

YOU SHOULD JUST LET US TELL YOU HOW TO THINK FROM NOW ON...IT WILL BE EASIER AND BETTER FOR EVERYONE.

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[–] samoanjoes (56646) 2 years ago

No.

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[–] Kowalski (75528) 2 years ago

WELL...I NEVER!

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[–] Quasimodo (16388) 2 years ago

Is belief in God a mental illness in your opinion?

No it isn't. Belief in God(s) is an evolutionary phenomena that has survived because it has utility. You might as well ask if love is a mental illness.

Beliefs are not illnesses, medicine only defines something as an illness if it is consistently harmful to your health

And undergoing radical surgery with fingers crossed isn't harmful to a person's health ?

Beliefs or desires that are difficult for you to relate to or understand don't make them an illness

Oh so because I can't relate to schizophrenia that doesn't make it a mental illness ?

The way you feel about trans genders is exactly how your grand parents or great grand parents felt about homosexuals. It's not "natural", it doesn't lead to procreation, so it must be a disease

Again in evolutionary terms people who fall substantially outside of "normality" can be turned on by the majority for all sorts of reasons. A deformed individual might be turned on for example to weed out undesirable genetic traits. This kind of behaviour is perfectly "natural".

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[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

"If the brain feminized during pregnancy but the body is male, that brain is gonna create a distress signal because of that mismatch."

What does 'feminized' mean? I'm not being sarcastic here. Point me to a link or description of this concept. Is it a physical thing?

If there is no basis for it in biology -- a gene, chromosome, hormone, whatever -- it really is all 'in the head' and just a game of semantics, isn't it?

Anyone?

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

https://scitechconnect.elsevier.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sex-and-the-developing-brain.pdf

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[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Dl'd it... will read it at length.

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

It's the most widely used neutral 3rd person pronoun in English. People use it when they don't want to be addressed neither as male or female.

And if it's only trans why would they not prefer he/she to the gender they identify as ?

Most transsexual people hate this neo-pronoun trend since transphobes often use it to address to them using the neutral instead of their chosen gender. The problem the word trans has become so wide and inclusive than transsexual people have become a minority in the trans community, they don't matter much in that community anymore.

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[–] aliensalmon (5605) 2 years ago

They/them is used simply if you want to avoid mentioning the gender of a subject (to be gender-neutral), or if the gender is none (agender) or unknown.

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[–] ColumboKate (5678) 2 years ago

That's what confuses me though. How/why can you not have a gender ? Surely you are male or female - by birth or by choice. For example, i believe that Elliot Page uses this pronoun, so why change their name from female Ellen to male Elliot ? Why not Alex or Jo/Joe which could be either ?

This is getting more confusing the more I read lol.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

How/why can you not have a gender ?

I think, and I could be wrong, but a trans person will most likely switch to their gender. Like Elliot Page is he/him. I think that the people who don't have a gender, is more that they don't feel that they fit in any of society's defined gender roles. Some do switch to more non gendered names.

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[–] ColumboKate (5678) 2 years ago

Oh ok I've understood that wrong then, I thought elliot used they/them. Bad example.

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

I think he goes by both "he" and "they", but the "they" seems more of a compromise for those who find really hard to use the masculine with him. Some kind of "if you don't wanna use the masculine, at least use the neutral".

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[–] moviechatterer (15583) 2 years ago

They/them is used simply if you want to avoid mentioning the gender of a subject (to be gender-neutral), or if the gender is none (agender) or unknown.

so i think the question Kate is asking is

Who wants to be referred to as gender neutral if its not trans people who are using whichever they transed to .

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[–] huwdj (4566) 2 years ago

Possibly because labeling someone as he/she comes with a whole bunch of assumptions about physical/mental/sexual attributes. They/them doesn't. If not predefined and limited by expectation, your own and others, then you're able to explore all the things that make you comfortable and happy.
Does that sound reasonable? I'm just making this up as I go along myself so any answer is a work in progress.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

I think very similarly to you on this, and I wish I would have read this before I responded so I could have just gone, "Yes, I agree."

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[–] Gubbio (3893) 2 years ago

I reject the entire pronoun thing as stupid and ridiculous. The Woke want to reinvent language. Be what you are or what you identify as, and leave the rest of us the hell alone! And fuck your "feelings."

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[–] April-151-CT (10210) 2 years ago

https://i.ibb.co/f1kCzPg/DBWwFwz.gif

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[–] ColumboKate (5678) 2 years ago

I'm just trying to understand it.

I understand being gay or bisexual, I understand wanting to dress differently to gender norms. I understand being born in the wrong body.

But this they/them thing just doesn't quite stick to my logic meter 🤷🏻‍♀️.

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

I think what may confuse people on the use of "they/them" is the overloading.

Just like "He/him" can mean either male or gender-neutral.

If I say, "I saw someone in the dark! He's running away that way!" The "he" could be male or gender-neutral because it was dark, I couldn't see clearly whether that person is male or female. I would only use "she" if the person was female. But at the same time, it could be that the person was indeed a male. This is an example of an overloaded word.

In the same spirit, now "they/them" can mean either singular or plural. The terms used to be always plural, but now they're being used as singular or plural. That's it.

They were always gender-neutral since forever. That doesn't change.

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[–] ColumboKate (5678) 2 years ago

So is a gender neutral person another way of saying they are bisexual ? They are neither male nor female and so are attracted to both ?

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

I don't think it has anything to do with sexual preference. It's just about the gender.

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[–] kukuxu (5409) 2 years ago

Sexual orientation and gender identity are different things. A gender neutral person would be the gender identity equivalent to what bisexual is in sexual orientation, supposed it's honest (many people could use the non-binary label as a way to feel special).

According to the current research, it seems that sexual orientation depends on the level of estrogens in the brain during its development while gender identity depends on the level of androgens (during its development too). The relations are way more complex, but this is more or less an over-simplified summary.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

I'm bi/pan sexual and I am 100% a she/her.

I really just think that a lot of the younger people who use they/them, are just trying to figure out who they are. It's a way of saying "you can't tell me who I am".

There are also those who know 100% that they don't fit in the box of she or he, and don't want to be confined to the roles that society has told us she or he need to fill. I think that they/them is easier than Ze/hir which is also used.

English speakers already use they as a singular. This example has been around for awhile.

Just found a wallet on a ground at Macy's . Found the cashier and together we tracked down the owner. They were so happy that I returned their wallet that they tried offering me cash. Of course I refused bc it's not their fault that they lost their wallet.

So we are already used to using they/them/their for a singular.

My advice, is don't think about it too much. If you meet someone who asks to be referred to as they, do your best to remember, and if you really want to know more, you could ask that individual as to why they choose to use they/their.

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[–] ShogunofYonkers (77378) 2 years ago

Good on you for getting the wallet back to the owner, I did the same thing years ago, I went to the address on the driver’s license…the guy wanted to give me money but I declined. It’s a good feeling to do well for a stranger.

As to the ‘pronoun’ thing I’ve met a few younger people that prefer their chosen pronouns. I admit that I’m really bad at remembering all of it…’Old dog, new tricks’ if you will. I still call an obvious woman ‘she’ and so forth, but I’m trying.

Happily, most of them insist on their chosen
Pronouns but are somewhat understanding with the rest of us for not really understanding much about it.

Respect for another person and some mutual patience seems to be really important.

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[–] sslssg (34211) 2 years ago

I didn't return the wallet, that was just an example of a sentence using they/them/their for a single person. I will put quotations on it. :)

I still have issues remembering. I also use "dude" a lot, and I refer to groups of people as "guys". I do try to be more aware, and I also do remind anyone who has been upset when people don't automatically get it, that sometimes it's difficult to just drop 40+ years of vocabulary in an instant.

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[–] Theman (1224) 2 years ago

One person but they take up two seats on an airplane or in a movie theater.

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

Or parking lot.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (7146) 2 years ago

Aside from choosing a pronoun that doesn't relate to gender based on how they perceive themselves, it could also be a pointed rebellion from gender norms even if they do align with their gender and biological sex. A lot of people don't want to be told to do and not do things based specifically on their biological sex, nor do they want this for their children if they have any. It's just a way to loosen the confines that come with gender-based expectations.

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