Personally for me, I don't see why it's wrong at all. We're taught it's wrong, but I've never been told why it's supposedly wrong. What makes a profane word worse than another word that means the exact same thing? They're just synonyms. It's a taboo for no real reason that's perpetuated for no real reason. It's a paradox.
shareCertain words used at the right time are fine and in private situations, who cares? But dropping F bombs in public is gross and makes people sound uneducated and crude.
shareWhy though? Why is "fuck" considered crude?
shareIt's basically another synonym for fornication.
shareI have no idea
My inner dialogue cusses constantly, I have a filthy inner voice...'Oh, not this f**cking guy again!,' 'What is this sh*thead bugging me for now?,' 'That guy is driving like an a**hole!'
I frequently employ crude terms, I just keep it to myself.. Old Ladies tend to dislike crude talk so it's best to just keep it down and amongst the boys
Its a great bedroom word
shareI tend to agree with you on most matters, you are a Class Act, you are correct here as well
Shouting 'These F**cking NY Giants can't defend our Quarterback!!!' at the pub is reasonable behavior
Loudly declaring 'These wafers taste like drywall f**king smells!' during church services is totally inappropriate
There's a time and place for profanity
Exactly.
share
Many English swear words are Anglo-Saxon in origin.
When the Normans invaded Britain, the language of the royal court, legislature, &c, became French.
The French-speakers looked down on the 'coarse' language of the ordinary people. And French language and manners became something to aspire to for the group of people who would eventually morph into what we might call the 'middle classes'.
This Norman influence is the reason we keep 'cows' (Germanic) but eat beef (Latin via Old French). You'd be looked down on if you said 'Yum, that was a nice piece of cow.'
Eventually, even long after the Norman influence waned, this created different 'registers' in the English language - which is largely class-based.
That's the over-simplified origin of taboo words in the English language. Of course, it's also to do with the manners of different classes, and subjects that were not considered polite to discuss in public... but as for why directly synonymous words are treated differently, that's where - in English, at least - it begins.
The origin of the term "vulgar" comes from a Latin word (vulgus) which means "the common people."
shareIndeed.
And you bring up another strand of this that might be worth remembering. Aside from the Norman influence I mentioned (Old French, from Latin), Latin itself was also the language of knowledge and learning for centuries, and therefore considered more 'refined'.
'Sex' - Latin. 'Intercourse' - Latin via Old French. 'Fuck' - Germanic.
I appreciate the explanation. Thanks!
shareOh, and another thought: profanity - from Latin profanus - 'not sacred, outside the temple.'
The Bible wasn't translated into English until 1382. And that translation was suppressed. So again, 'profane' is basically the same as 'vulgar' - the language of the common people.
It’s a real pleasure to read a caring, informed and cordial discussion on language. Language absolutely says a great deal about the speaker or writer. It can also create class conflicts. What I call the High Tongue can annoy someone whose touchstone is the vernacular. Words like “snob, egg-head, intellectual, asshole” then get tossed around. We all, however, have a choice about how we choose to be and present ourselves. It’s my observation that too many believe that their words really aren’t all that important and that their audience “will know what I mean.” The reality is, the audience will not. Words carry energy. Every truly self-respecting person therefore chooses her or his words very carefully. Thanks for the superb conversation.
That's kind of you to say. Thank you.
And you bring up an interesting point with the reverse snobbery. While the people I'm calling (for convenience) the 'middle classes' aspired to the 'refined' language of the Norman ruling class, I suspect the so-called lower orders became more stubbornly entrenched in their own Anglo-Saxon vocabulary. Attitudes that may persist.
'Ooooh, la-di-da, Frenchie. Well, we don't call it "excrement" in this household.'
Of course, these attitudes, informal/formal registers and class distinctions exist in other languages too; but English being so mongrel in its origins, having such a comparatively massive lexicon and so many direct synonyms, these fault lines seem especially pronounced.
My post to you was kind. It was also something that you and others here deserved.
I think you’re onto something about the plebes deciding to cling stoically to the vulgate as a “fuck you” to the privileged classes, and I can’t fault them for that, at least not on the face of it; but how much did they damage themselves in terms of being able to climb the socioeconomic ladder? I wonder about toughs who get a Toxic Waste symbol tattooed to their foreheads. How are they ever going to get a bank loan, or a job? There are more productive ways to rebel and resist and defy. Chief among those ways is beating the bastards at their own game.
Agreed on English’s mongrel birthright. I labored through Chaucer as an undergrad. Middle English is as much German as it is English. Our modern English is one of THE hardest languages, particularly in regard to our spelling.
Well, there wasn't really much of a concept of social mobility in feudal England, was there? So there probably wasn't much benefit to the peasantry even if they did choose to adopt Frenchified ways. Even if they were permitted to adopt Frenchified ways. All the more more reason to resentfully dig in.
But you're right that it matters now.
I used to know a woman who would text me the word 'av' for 'have' (among other similar things). She was an intelligent person, so at the time, I assumed it as an affectation. She was a) abbreviating to save letters under a 140 character limit, and b) writing in her own accent in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Then later on, she asked me to proof-read a formal letter she had written and I was wincingly disavowed of that notion.
We all use different registers and communicate differently in different environments, contexts and to different people. But if you don't have the ability to switch or (as you say) to 'beat the bastards at their own game' you'll forever be at a disadvantage.
It just occurred to me that 1 time when profanity is not only appropriate but almost pretty much required is during sex, whether in person or on the phone or online. After all, the brain is the primary sex organ. It’s no surprise that women are generally better at sex chat than men. Women are more verbal than we are. Also, women are erotic. Women enjoy nuance, detail, creativity and passion. Men are just horny. We wanna get down to the job at hand. I think a woman is thrilled to be with a man who still has enough blood flowing to his head that he can have a conversation while tumescent.
Hell, even Shakespeare talked dirty. When King Lear is being led to his death, he says , “I will die as gladly as any bridegroom,” or words to that effect. As you know, in Elizabethan slang, “to die” meant “to experience climax.” Even the Bard was verbally naughty!
Shakespeare was absolutely more dirty than most people today think.
It is not like his plays were fancy high culture back then either.
You are absolutely correct. He wrote to sell tickets. He had no thoughts about leaving a legacy. He is an excellent example of why pleasing the audience can lead to immortality.
shareInterestingly enough, some of the swear words in Swedish are of a Greek origin or even a Hebrew origin.
It is the ones, which have to do with the Devil/Satan and are derived from his Greek and Hebrew names.
The rest of the bad words are Germanic though.
I've noticed that occasionally in English subtitles of Swedish films; you folk get a lot of use out of your 'devil' word - it's very flexibly translated.
We've never used it in quite the same way in English, but it certainly used to be taboo. In 19th century novels people are forever saying 'To the deuce with you, sir', where 'deuce' is a stand-in for the much more shocking 'devil'.
And 'heck' is a euphemism for 'hell'. 'Geez' is a less offensive way of exclaiming 'Jesus!'... That sort of thing. But I think all of that has lost its power by now. But it seems devil and Satan words are more baked-in to Swedish.
But on the other hand, we don't use our literal equivalents of "fuck" and "fucking" as swear words.
They are seen as rude terms for an intercourse and for having intercourse respectively, but not as swear words.
Many believe “heck” derives from Hecate, the Greek goddess of magic and spells. Most folks who say “heck” think it is a very mild word. How do you think the Goddess of magic and spells feels about having her name taken in vain? As I said earlier, words have energy. We need to use them judiciously.
Being of German heritage, I’m not surprised that we coined most naughty words.
Not quite.
"German" and "Germanic" are two different things.
Then please enlighten me.
share"German" refers to just one language or to the people of Germany.
"Germanic" refers to a whole branch of the Indo-European language family and to the peoples of many countries.
Sweden, Norway, the UK, Denmark, Germany, Iceland, the Netherlands and Austria are all Germanic countries.
Belgium is Germanic in Flanders, but Latinate in most of Wallonia and most of Brussels.
Switzerland is very mixed as well with a Germanic German-speaking group and three Latinate groups.
Thank you for that. I could have done my own research, but I may not have reached the same conclusions as you, and I respect your opinion.
shareI don't think its wrong when its genuine.
---What a fcking Asshle, so this stupid bi$ch had the nerve....etc
I hate when you can tell that someone is just cursing on purpose for no other reason than to show you they can.
---using every curse word out of context. ???
That being said, I'm not into my kids cursing.
---Ever watch an episode of Soprano when the kids are being testy and they just a wild cursing in front of their parents.
yeah. That's a no from me.
Fuck no!
It's inappropriate or unprofessional on some occasions, but overall I approve of it.
I don't think it's wrong in certain instances but if you say fuck every other sentence I'll think you are an idiot.
shareI swear A LOT but I refrain from it when I’m around children or elderly people. That’s just basic respect, for me anyway.
shareSame.
shareDitto.
shareAgree, but people have to realize that there is a new generation of elderly who curse like there’s no tomorrow. These boomer ex-hippies are not the golly swell gee grandmas and grandpas from the 50s. Sadly those kindly folk are less and less amongst us.
shareI basically never swear. I consider it low class.
share