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article - it's time to stop wearing masks outdoors


as will happen, the board has had its share of idiotic anti-vax takes coming up to the surface. annoying, bothersome at minimum, and a pov that simply will not die in the face of evidence and statistics and basic decency.

but here's a covid response that i think we should be ready to cast into the garbage: the high degree of out-door mask use.

https://slate.com/technology/2021/04/masks-outside-covid-risk-low.amp?__twitter_impression=true

all of the studies, from the relatively early days to current stuff, appear to show that outdoor transmission is rare, perhaps to the point of insignificance. it's almost certainly the case that there is far more risk in being in a grocery store or any kind of indoor place with people close to you with a mask on than in being outdoors passing people on a sidewalk without a mask.

this was apparent from the start, fairly obvious once we knew how the disease was relayed, and all the available data & stats supports the needlessness to mask outside.

but i know here i'd say 90%+ of people i pass on the streets are masked. & i still get looks and occasional pissy comment from people when i walk or jog by them.

which is just silly.

now we've had a bad go of it here, and i can be swayed by people saying 'go along with the performance, just to preserve the peace.' people are still freaked out.

fine. ok. show some respect to people. i can go along with that.

yet...we should be at the stage by now where we can normalize things that are clearly pretty harmless. and going maskless outdoors is surely one of them.

make masklessness outdoors ok. this is the hill i want to defend this year.

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I have been saying that for weeks. The problem lies indoors and in areas with low ventilation. Wearing a mask outside and then taking it off when you enter a bar to have a beer is like wearing a condom during the day and then taking it off when you have sex.

Because I said this, I have been called science denier and white supremacist. No kidding.

So... welcome to scientific denialism and white supremacism! The cookies are on the shelves 😂

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when i've had this chat with people in the real world & online, i've on occasion been told that i'm mansplaining & a conduit of toxic masculinity.

which is a depressingly common response i find when i actually try to talk to people about lots and lots of things where i feel commonly held beliefs don't quite align with reality.

harrumph.

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Yeah.

I particularly hate the term "mansplaining". Talking about "toxic masculinity" is the usual defamatory demonization of males, but at least something "toxic" is something that is inherently bad.

However, what's the problem with a man explaining something? I care whether the explanation or the arguments are good, that's what matters, I don't give a shit about whether who's talking is a man, a woman, a Cylon or a transgender Klingon. That's why I hate that term: we have reached the point where something that has nothing wrong can be used as a defamatory term, and it works.

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You can still catch covid outdoors if you're in close proximity to other people.

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That'd be the case if you're surrounded by lots of people (like a parade) or talking face to face with somebody (like a outdoors pub). Walking down the street and crossing somebody? The probability is near zero.

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sure. if you stop and talk with someone, it's absolutely good form to put a mask on.
or if you're in a crowd where you have to be fairly close.
though it's interesting that no outbreaks seem to have been tied to last summer's protests, for example, or at least none that i'm aware of.

but there's no evidence that there's any significant transmissions coming from normal outdoors interactions - walking past someone on the sidewalk, jogging past people.

so my plea to the universe is: make being outside without a mask ok, and not something to be shamed.

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I've never worn a mask outdoors except when waiting for a table outside where it's been required,(which I think is totally ridiculous), or an outdoor market or garden center. If it was up to me I wouldn't wear one outside - period, but as you mentioned, people will give you dirty looks if you are unmasked outside.

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I think masks should be mandatory by federal law. I see no reason to let the pandemic get any worse than it has to be.

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i don't see any compelling argument for mandating mask use outdoors anywhere, and certainly not nationally.

if people want to do it, then they are entitled to their preferences, but no one should be forced by law to do something when it's shown to likely have zero utility. & imposing a top-down, nationwide law when there are dramatically different outcomes across the country seems very ill-suited.

if you want to make an argument for mandating all businesses and interior public spaces to do it, i think you'd be on more solid ground, but my preference would be to leave that to municipalities to determine what to do, since they are the ones who are closest to the issue and who have the best feel for what is required.

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Elderly people in particular, find masks to interfere with exercise because they increase the muscular effort of breathing. We WANT people to exercise because healthy bodies are better able to fight off the virus. So I would say if outdoor masks discourage exercise, especially among the elderly, then we should not require outdoor masks, except in crowded areas like concerts etc.

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FYI the research paper that showed that last summer's protests did not "cause outbreaks", traced the effect to the fact that because of the protests, OTHER people in those counties socialized and went out less, presumably because the protests made them uncomfortable. The paper acknowledged that mass protests, even outdoors, and even with masks, would unavoidably themselves be a source of viral spread. This is because protests go on for a long time, so eventually you will probably get breathed on long enough to get an infectious dose of virus. It's also because people in protests are focused on the protest rather than on social distancing. And it is also because protests generally involve quite a bit of shouting, which is known to spread Covid. So there probably WERE outbreaks from the protests, but they were "balanced out" by the fact that other people in those areas did less mixing and less going out because of the presence of protests in their area.

I ask my kids to wear masks when they get together with other kids outside. Kids themselves don't usually seem to get very sick (occasionally, but rare), but I don't want my kids to make me sick. When kids are playing together outside, they are yelling at each other and bumping into each other. The more you yell, the more you spit. So I think it is reasonable for kids to wear masks if they are playing together and it lets them be able to play without having to think about social distancing.

Transmission from walking past someone on the sidewalk is statistically possible (ie. contact tracing has identified such cases, mainly in China where they have the ability to know exactly where people go and when) but it's extremely unlikely. It's not zero but it's VERY low. Wearing masks when out for a walk seems like overkill to me, but if you're going to be outside in a crowd I think it makes sense.

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good post.

do you have a link to the paper you referenced in your first paragraph?

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I'll try to find it but I've read so many papers on Covid by this time that they all run together. That paper was last fall, I might be able to find it, not sure...

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don't worry about it then. i'll see if i can track it down myself. no need for any special effort on your part.

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One problem with walking past someone outside is if you pass by an infected person who isn't wearing a MASK they could also COUGH or SNEEZE on you which would also put you at risk of also catching it.

Because studies also show the virus can be projected as far as 12 feet away when that happens.

So what you could do is wear the mask around your neck, and each time that you would need to pass by someone simply pull it up to protect yourself from having them SNEEZE or COUGH on you.

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that's possible, but i would take that and go back to how many cases can actually be traced back to an event like that.

if you look at the slate article, you'll see a pair of items referenced that support this. one being a piece from the irish showing that only 0.1% of the diagnosed covid cases can be attributed to outdoors transmission.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/outdoor-transmission-accounts-for-0-1-of-state-s-covid-19-cases-1.4529036

an academic article posted states that the outdoor transmission rate is '

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[deleted]

The POINT is this:

WHY take the RISK that someone you pass by could COUGH or SNEEZE on you and INFECT you with something that could KILL YOU if you catch it from them.

Simply Wear the MASK around your neck so you can pull it up each time you need to be near someone who will be LESS than 6 feet away from you --- and then pull it back down again -- once they're far enough away from you again that you don't need to worry about it anymore.

In other words, it doesn't need to be an EITHER/OR situation when it can be a BOTH/AND situation where one has BOTH OPTIONS (to both wear a mask and not wear it at the same time).

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because the risk is vanishingly small, to the point of being insignificant.

it's a pointless thing to do.

if you're going to do that, then you should never go into a grocery store or any shop with a mask. that's far higher a risk.

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[deleted]

it's a pointless thing to do.


Ok FINE.

Go ahead and TAKE the RISK that someone who might have it COUGHS on you and INFECTS YOU with it.

Then don't complain that you wish you'd paid more attention to what joi said here whenever you take your LAST BREATH.

Because I also won't be able to HEAR you saying it.


🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

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you were starting to win me over, but you're back to annoying me again.

i'll just direct you to the irish times article, which shows that 0.10% of cases can be attributed to outdoor transmission.

we should be encouraging people to walk outside without masks. it's fine, it's safe, and it will make people feel better.

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CORRECTION:

We should encourage people to BOTH WALK OUTSIDE and PROTECT themselves whenever they encounter situations where they can't be a SAFE DISTANCE away from other people that they don't know.

And the way to do that is to wear a MASK around the neck and PULL it up whenever you need to pass by someone else who will be less than 6 feet away from you.

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i will do that when you can provide me with any evidence passing by someone within six feet outdoors is an even small risk for transmission.

there is no evidence for that from all i've seen. almost all the risk comes from prolonged indoor exposure. outdoors, with some exceptions is safe.

bye!

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ANOTHER CORRECTION:

there is no evidence for that from all i've seen.

IFFY has already told you that there's EVIDENCE that this can happen to you:

Transmission from walking past someone on the sidewalk is statistically possible (ie. contact tracing has identified such cases, mainly in China


🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

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'Just one confirmed case of Covid-19 in every thousand is traced to outdoor transmission, new figures reveal.

Of the 232,164 cases of Covid-19 recorded in the State up to March 24th this year, 262 were as a result of outdoor transmission, representing 0.1 per cent of the total.'

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/outdoor-transmission-accounts-for-0-1-of-state-s-covid-19-cases-1.4529036

it as at that point that you can safely say the risk of transmission from being unmasked outdoors is small to the point of insignificance, and that we should encourage people to not condemn people for going unmasked outdoors and tell them to do so as well.

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the chance of catching it being:

small to the point of insignificance

still doesn't mean that you are NOT AT RISK of catching it by NOT WEARING a MASK outside.

So WHY not WEAR it around your NECK to PROTECT yourself each time that you encounter someone else that's LESS than 6 FEET away FROM YOU???

Again, Why take the chance of CATCHING IT if you don't need to???


🙄

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because it's better to walk outside and jog without a mask.
and there's minimal risk.

let's map this out.

262 cases of would presumably translate to 5 or 6 deaths of covid.

140 people died in car accidents in ireland in 2019.

so if you shouldn't pass by someone without a mask outside, then you should never set foot in a car, because that's far more likely to kill you.

this is a matter of sensibility and statistical literacy.

we should be encouraging people to resume things that are minimal risk.

being outside maskless is good! it's good for your mood, it's good in being able to see people and give them a nod, and it's safer than getting into a car.

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this conversation is triggering all my ocd/asperger synapses.

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'

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[deleted]

I'm of the mind that it depends on what kind of outdoor situation one is in. Out walking and passing by the occasional person? Not necessary. But at a packed outdoor concert, parade, fair? Yep, I'd wear one.

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I agree with crowds, but I have totally avoided anything like that since last March.

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I think most people are sick of masks...period.

I haven't worn one outside for 6 months. I don't wear one indoors unless I am forced to.

It's time to resume life in my view. But every time the Covid Groundhog Fauchi pops his little head up and tells us 6 more weeks everyone's like Damn you stupid groundhog.

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https://reason.com/2021/04/22/experts-agree-that-outdoor-post-vaccination-masking-is-useless/

"Is It Time to End Outdoor Masking?" That was the question posed by Spencer Bokat-Lindell, a staff editor at The New York Times, in a recent opinion piece. Bokat-Lindell noted that journalists at Reason—as well as Slate, The New Republic, and The Atlantic—had expressed skepticism of government mandates requiring mask while outdoors, and decided to ask the experts to see what they thought.

"Is Mr. Soave right?" asked Bokat-Lindell. "Here's what public health experts and journalists are saying."

As it turns out, they largely agree that outdoor masking is useless.

Take it away, experts:

"Transmissions do not take place between solitary individuals going for a walk, transiently passing each other on the street, a hiking trail or a jogging track," Dr. Paul E. Sax, a professor at Harvard Medical School, wrote in NEJM Journal Watch. "That biker who whizzes by without a mask poses no danger to us, at least from a respiratory virus perspective."…

Experts have been preaching the importance of distinguishing between indoor and outdoor transmission risks since the early months of the pandemic. But now that the vaccination drive is underway, the expectation of universal outdoor masking "almost becomes ridiculous," Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease doctor at the University of California, San Francisco, told Slate. Dr. Gandhi isn't alone: Several epidemiologists have called for an end to outdoor mask mandates, which some 24 states still have in place.

Earlier this week, The Washington Post reached the same conclusion:

Even if one is wary about the risks right now, those risks will abate considerably over the next month. More than half of all eligible Americans have received at least one coronavirus vaccination shot, which means that by the end of May more than half of all Americans will be fully vaccinated. A growing body of evidence suggests that fully vaccinated Americans are highly unlikely vectors for transmitting the disease. This means the need for mask-wearing should be reduced even further….

Just let time work its magic. As more and more vaccinated people feel comfortable going maskless outside, the social norm of putting on a mask will subside slowly, then suddenly.

The evidence is clear: COVID-19 is a disease that spreads when humans breathe, talk, laugh, and sing in each other's faces during close contact—particularly indoors, in poorly ventilated spaces. The outdoors, on the other hand, are associated with very little transmission. Moreover, the vaccinated are essentially immune from severe disease and death, and their odds of contracting the virus at all are very low. Their odds of spreading the disease are even lower. Vaccinated people who have incidental contact with other people outside are not going to spread the virus, and requiring people to mask up during such circumstances is pointless.

That's not a matter of opinion: It's the expert consensus. If you don't want to hear it, then you aren't listening to the science. Government policy makers take heed; it is long past time to end COVID-19 restrictions—especially the ones that aren't even serving any actual public health purpose.

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If no one is around to complain - take your mask off, is what I say.

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Yeah, OK, as soon as you show me your medical license.

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What I've seen people do is to go for a walk and wear a mask and when or if they encounter another individual they either step off the sidewalk, or to the side to let the other person pass with a wide ( wider than 5 foot ) separation, or they pull their mask up before they get within 6 feet.

I have to admit I was not so germ conscious before, but this last year was about the first year in a long time when I did not any cold or sniffles, certainly no flu or Covid-19, and I quite like it. Considering there will probably be another pandemic sooner rather than later I am not so sure this is not a good permanent idea -- or at least people should not be ridicules or stigmatized for wearing masks, it's a good idea.

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I never have worn masks outdoors.

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