If you remove the idea that 'God is good' and say 'we were created with purpose' it raises some questions - General Discussion Discussion

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 5 years ago

Intothenight have you been staring into the abyss again ? Is the universe the result of intelligent design or a purely random mechanistic process ? These questions are imponderable.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Everything is designed. That's why I'm starting to believe that we were designed with major flaws....on purpose.

reply

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 5 years ago

When you stare into the abyss you will never get to the bottom of it. That's why it's called an abyss. Still everyone needs a hobby I guess...

reply

[–] AndyKing1967 (39835) 5 years ago

We’re just an alien ant farm.

reply

[–] nyctc7 (44104) 5 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4eS2SceeFk&t=1m48s

reply

[–] Prelude (1443) 5 years ago

Nothing was "designed." Everything on the planet is the result of natural selection and adaptation for purposes of best survival, that's all.

Whatever falls short or goes wrong (murderers, chronic illness etc) is random, not "designed" as part of a plan. "God" didn't create anything. We created an idea that there's a god.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I see how everything works within parameters. That's planning. That's design. Evolution cannot explain intricacy.

reply

[–] Prelude (1443) 5 years ago

No, the intricacy is part of the evolving in order to adapt ideally. It's an illusion that that has to be planned by a higher intelligence. It's only the way it is because evolution is all about arriving at the most successful "intricacy" - and everything that failed to fell away.

There doesn't have to be a god or anyone or thing who planned anything.

reply

[–] TexasJack (12516) 5 years ago

Why not? Evolution could be part of the design.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Your looking through the wrong end of a scope. You see how everything works together and assume it was made that way but it's just the opposite. When two things compete for the same resources, one is going to lose and die or adapt to use a different resource, in the end it creates a stable environment.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

And you know this, how?

reply

[–] slimone (7996) 5 years ago

You are right there is no "god". The idea of a god is to help a group of people understand the beginning of the universe. Nobody really knows how it began. I don't know and I don't care. I live in the present.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

So how do you know "there is no God" if you don't know how everything began?

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

God doesn't answer the question of how the universe began. God or not, you have to accept that something always was.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Actually it is clearly stated that God created everything. God always was.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

What is the difference between God always was and the primordial thing that expanded into the universe always was? God myths don't explain anything.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

All created things must have a creator.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

That is circular logic and assumes purpose, and you didn't answer my question.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

The difference is God is a thinking, living all powerful being who is capable of creating. Primordial ectoplasm or whatever, isn't.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

You are projecting human qualities on a mythical being that I believe you yourself wrote can't be understood by us. The only evidence for god was created by men.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

You're using honor-less tactics while pretending to have an enlightened, respectful conversation. I have not belittled your beliefs buy applying descriptors such as "hogwash", "fantasy", mythical", etc. Why would you stoop to doing that?

By the way, the only evidence of non-intelligent design was also created by man.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Only if you believe Man created nature.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

I see purpose in infinite quantity, every where I look.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

I don't know what that means.

reply

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 5 years ago

I think he's talking about money...

reply

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 5 years ago

All created things must have a creator.

Not necessarily. If God created the Universe then who created God ? And if God has always existed then why can't the Universe have always existed ? It's like I said trying to answer this question is staring into the abyss. We just don't know.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

You are correct. These are my beliefs. I believe the explanations given in the bible and the scientific and prophetic evidence to back it up. Not to mention my personal experiences and at least one very clear "intervention" on God's part, in my own life. Until all the unanswerable questions have answers, it all faith on everyone's behalf.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Boredom searches for purpose. Remove the idea of God and a lot of mysteries are solved

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

What mysteries?

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Philosophical ones like why are we here, what is our purpose, what is the nature of good and evil, etc.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Okay, so how are they solved? Atheists as well as people of faith, have those questions.

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Boredom.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

What are you talking about?

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

There is nothing special about being atheist. If you accept the truth that we are just fancy animals then all those questions go away. The only purpose we have is the purpose we create.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

First, you have no right to say what the truth IS, since no one actually knows. It is your BELIEF, just as I BELIEVE God is real.

Second, I feel your thoughts on those questions "going away" are not even remotely close to widely held. I have never met anyone who doesn't have those question and trust me, I have asked. If I had to speculate, I'd say in your heart of hearts, you still have those question.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

I removed the mental clutter of religion and distraction of unanswerable questions to focus on the real. The truth is in plain sight.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

I agree. The truth is in plain sight. Hopefully you'll see it soon.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Ah, so now you're going to just copy what I say? Disappointing after such a lively conversation.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

If you're going to continue to say your beliefs and opinions are truth and facts, the conversation is already over.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Doesn't religion do the same? Claim it is the truth and has answers to questions? The difference is religion requires blind faith because it's a lie.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Okay, since you can't grasp the concept of respectful debate, I'll just say this. You and I are having a conversation about our different beliefs. You are not having a conversation with "religion". I already stated, my thoughts and opinions are based on my BELIEF. I never said your belief is a lie because that's not conducive to enlightened, friendly debate. I will discuss anything, with anyone in a friendly, respectful manor. If you want to be disrespectful or insulting, find someone else.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

are you angry because you think I'm being disrespectful or are you angry because what I'm saying actually makes more sense than what you believe.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

I'm not angry at all. I've met many people like you and I understand what you're going through. Good luck.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

I was as respectful to you as you have been to me.

reply

[–] Knish (1721) 5 years ago

God is not separate from us. We are the universe. Not just observers.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I've thought about the same thing. If I or any of us were to create our own world and beings would we make it so complex? As in would we create a world where one kind has to eat another to live? Where the things we created die of illness, old age, disease, age terribly?

Would we come up with a complex moral system that these beings had no chance of following (for the most part)?

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

I thing that kind of thinking is fundamentally flawed. Assuming God is real, His complexities, thoughts and abilities are WAAAAYY beyond our comprehension. Imagine a dog, using it's brain to try to analyze humans. It would be ridiculous and a dog even has a brain that has similarities to ours. God, the creator of the very reality we exist in, is not even remotely on the same plane as we are.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Going to have to disagree. Not to mention if we take for granted a God does exist than this god enabled us with the ability to think and analyse which is what is taking place.

If God exists and is on a higher plane than is than I expect so much more from God.

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

What do you expect from God?

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Logic for a start would be nice.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Logic regarding what?

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I've already gone into but lets take your view on God for a moment.

If God is on a higher plane than us and infallible, all knowing than he/she/it should have known that we were going to get very confused as to how we should worship he/she/it. So he/she/it should have for starters written a clearer instruction manual on these things. Might have saved centuries of warfare and suffering.

My point is you can't have it both ways. If God exists and is on a higher plan than perhaps we are just some kind of weird experiment they dreamed up but why would they bother? If you were some kind of supreme being, would you bother? And if you were to bother surely you would provide better guidance, not to mention create a better system and beings to begin with?

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

You are looking at things from your perspective which to you, make little to no sense but to Him, it makes perfect sense. It says in the Bible, His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. He's a God of the long game, lol and long to Him, I think may be a little longer than our "long".

He could have made things super simple by just creating us to be perfect and to love Him but that wouldn't be real. He gave us the freedom to chose or reject Him. Giving us that choice understandably involved great risk, such as war and suffering but that's the only way it could have gone, being that Adam and Eve chose to not believe Him, in the beginning.

I believe this VERY short time we have here is a stage to prepare us for the next stage.

The wars, suffering, etc., etc,. etc. are not even a blink of an eye, in the scope of eternity and I believe it'll be well worth it.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

And you are looking at it from the point of view of someone who does not question anything. You just accept it and anything that doesn't make sense or can't be explained you make up an excuse/reason for.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

An incorrect assumption. I may be new to you but I'm not new to this. I have spent years researching and questioning. The more time passes, the bigger it gets, to me and I realize the only boundaries to our ides, is ourselves. :)

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

It doesn't appear that way.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Appearances can be deceiving.

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

"God is good" is a relatively new construct. Probably by the Christians. I believe, the original one is "Good is God." Everything that is good is God.

Thus everything that is not good would be no God. Or "sin."

reply

[–] [email protected] (6247) 5 years ago

This is a question that could take weeks, months, years to discuss! But the basic Christian belief is God created us with free will. Those who murder, rob, rape, whatever are using their free will. Actually we ALL sin to some degree and that is us using our own free will.

God wants us to come to Him freely. If we had no free will, it wouldn't mean much. Just a weak analogy, but think of someone you are in love with. You want them to love you. But if you could give them a sure fire "love potion" to feel the same way about you, would that be satisfying? Would they be coming to you of their own free will? It has to be a choice or it doesn't mean much

And to all the naysayers, YES there is a God. I can't convince you though. But think logically. You probably have a wristwatch. Or at least you've seen one. Compared to the human body, it's hardly a complicated piece of machinery. But there had to be a watchMAKER! It didn't just evolve" from a lot of springs and dials and parts.

I don't argue with atheists much anymore. I just pray that they will see the truth and the folly of their position.

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

I know. I'm a Christian myself. I used to be an atheist, but now I'm a Christian.

I was just responding to the OP's what if... that is what if God is not necessarily good, but all good and bad are all God's creations.

I say no, because "God is good" is a new contruct. It's what we often hear in the church, or in gospel songs, or in Christian wall decor / posters, etc.

Which while I think it's still true, God is good that is, but doesn't convey a deeper meaning as in "good is God." That originally, everything that is good is God. Good and God are one and the same. Therefore, bad can't be coming from (or designed by) God.

reply

[–] GetOrfMoyLaand (27) 5 years ago

Surely our knowledge of the convergent evolution of the eyeball puts the old "watchmaker" analogy to bed these days...

Logical thinking only works if you're not starting from a false premise.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

What is the false premise?

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

If a watch must have a watchmaker then a human must also have a human-maker (God.)

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

How is that a false premise?

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Just because A needs A-maker doesn't always mean that B needs B-maker.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Logic dictates, anything created, requires a creator.

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

Does the wind have a maker? A primitive person would say yes, wind has a maker, but we know it's the result of air moving from high pressure to low pressure and doesn't require a "creator."

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Why would you think anyone would want to have a discussion with you, when you say "anyone who has a different belief than me, is a primitive person."?

Do you even realize that you are doing this?

reply

[–] McQualude (4231) 5 years ago

You can block me if my replies are uncomfortable, but others will still see them. Why not challenge yourself to answer meaningfully.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Lol. They're not uncomfortable. It's just surprising that even when it's clearly pointed out to you, you continue to be disrespectful.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

You're looking too close. Wind is a byproduct of the functions of the earth, etc. The earth has a creator, thus, the wind has a creator.

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Look, I'm a Christian myself, so I don't actually like debating fellow Christians in open forums.

See, thing is... we often conflating two different concepts and hide behind language.

A watchmaker is not necessarily a watch creator, right? Did he create the watch from nothingness?

"To create" and "to make" are often used interchangeably. But that was the dynamic of a language. In this particular case, we know that these two have different meanings. As Christians, we should be truthful and honest.

The watchmaker analogy is an old, archaic and flawed analogy. We modern Christians should not use it anymore. In fact, it's not even biblical.

I think we need to come back more to the bible, to God and to Jesus' teachings rather than upholding what some random pastors or evangelists told us.

Yes, pastors have their places, but not all of their sayings must be true. They're still human and they can be wrong, they can lie, they can be ignorant, etc.

If we want to bring atheists to know Jesus (I was an atheist myself) the only way right to do it is to set example. To live exemplary life. To do the right things. To show what is like to have meaningful life. To love. To give. To serve.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

Very well put. :)

reply

[–] GetOrfMoyLaand (27) 5 years ago

The false premise is "YES there is a God."

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

And you know this how?

reply

[–] GetOrfMoyLaand (27) 5 years ago

That's my exact point, I DON'T know, and neither do you nor anyone else...it's a belief that's entirely built on faith. There is no evidence for His existence (no, there's NOT!), so you can't say for sure there is a God.
Ergo you're starting your argument from a false premise.

reply

[–] chilone (18316) 5 years ago

I've stated the same thing over and over. Whatever you believe, it ultimately comes down to faith. I always state that it is my BELIEF that God is real. Saying "Yes there is a God" is not a false premise in a discussion, especially when it is expressed as a belief. Evolution, big bang, (neither of which do I patently reject) etc., etc., etc., could also be called a false premise.

As far as there being no evidence of His existence, that is also a matter of belief. Creation it's self is evidence, to me. Until science (which I also believe in) can answer the myriad of currently un-answerable questions, that evidence is as valid as any.

reply

[–] GetOrfMoyLaand (27) 5 years ago

Your last paragraph seems to veer into the "if science doesn't (yet) have an answer then it must be God" field of thinking. If we (or science) don't know something then that's all we know...that we don't know. No point filling the gaps with assumption, and the existence of The Almighty is always, ALWAYS going to be an assumption, until He decides to provide some physical and verifiable evidence to put all our minds to rest once and for all! At least that seems like a logical way of approaching and dealing with the situation of "does he or doesn't he exist".

Feeding this line of thinking back into the "Yes there is..." statement still leads to the conclusion that it's a false premise, certainly as far as logical thinking goes. You can believe it all you like, but you can't expect someone else to accept your belief as a starting point if trying to discuss the matter objectively, since there's an obvious counter point of view.

At least there is some sort of verifiable data & logic on which evolution or big bang theories are proposed, and the belief in them is grounded in something that fits in with the way the rest of the world (or indeed the entire known universe in terms of the laws of physics & biology) works.

Science isn't dogmatic and is willing to admit it's wrong, belief in the Almighty not so, and my personal feelings are this is why we're still having a conversation like this in 2019!

reply

[–] Wint3rFir3 (7370) 5 years ago

Just trying to answer as succinctly as possible. According to Christian theology, we definitely were created imperfect, but our purpose is to find God, to choose to believe in God despite the many choices available to us and the many imperfections we see in the world, and to attempt to live as God wants us to live, knowing we may very well fail.

reply