Aside from a few minor areas they have a huge advantage over men in almost every department.
The feminists will say the threat of sexual assault and harassment are a major issue, and in some ways they are but how many women do you know who have to deal with that with any sort of regularity? Being hit on a lot does not qualify as harassment unless the guy proceeds past “no.”
So basically women now have the majority of the world convinced that they are lifelong victims who suffer at the hands of a patriarchal chauvinistic society, but let’s be realistic. Women have it pretty damn good overall.
They receive special treatment in almost every area aside from some lingering inequality in the workplace and even that has mostly been amended. They are almost always immediately favored in any social debate, they have an extreme upper hand when it comes to dating up to about 40 and even then they still have an edge, and in divorces they still get the benefit of nearly every doubt.
The fact is that most men do not harass or assault women, but actually grovel at their feet treating them like queens and themselves as mere peasants honored to be in their presence, even with absolutely no intention or promise of getting any of this respect or a romantic opportunity with them in return. They have us walking on egg shells now because a handful of obscenely powerful and wealthy men have committed crimes that most men wouldn’t think twice of committing no matter how desperate they got.
I'm a woman and I disagree with many of your assumptions, and they are assumption because you don't know what it's like.
I won't be debating or arguing any further than to state you are so fucking wrong about the so-called advantages. Oh boy you have no idea. On SO MANY LEVELS.....
I won't be debating or arguing any further than to state you are so fucking wrong about the so-called advantages. Oh boy you have no idea. On SO MANY LEVELS.....
Yeah, I didn't bother, either. He's an MRA/Incel troll. Curiously, you can hear MRAs in South Korea spouting this same bullshit after the government cracked down on hidden cams recently.
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Yeah I don’t see how they can label the original poster as a gun nut or assume he has sexual relations with family members merely based on what he said in his post
You guys are feeding right into the MRA/Incel narrative.
Prelude: "I'm a woman, so your opinion is invalid."
Yeah, and he's a man, so how do his experiences not discredit yours? It's the same sexist argument! You don't know what it's like! Woe is us! MRA is just feminism for men. Let that sink in. So that and your complete refusal to make an argument renders everything you said invalid.
Atomic: "You can't get laid, so you aren't worth my time."
This is a common "rebuttal" from feminists. Shaming a man's masculinity. If a man shamed a woman's lack of sex appeal or inability to live up to gender roles, he would be lynched. This is the power dynamic of modern feminism, psychological abuse and using sexual power to manipulate men, but if a man dares abuse his power he's gotta lose his livelihood.
Feminism and MRA are both stupid. That's the problem. Men and women are fundamentally different in some ways, and by-and-large different in other ways. Equality is a myth, really we all should be trying to find what we are best at and try to compliment each others' differences instead of always competing for the same stuff neither of us wants. We are telling both sexes they need to compete against their own gender functions to be respected, leading to unhealthy insecurity and dissatisfaction with each other, an inability to meet each others' social conditioning needs or have "chemistry" in a relationship beyond pheromones.
I could be called incel. I gave up meeting womens' expectations about the time I got jaded against everyone and realized I was never gonna attain peer approval. I've always been the 'low man' on the pecking order, and I got tired of that game. Now I just live how I think is best for my personality type, and not how others tell me I should feel or act or focus on in life.
No, it's you who is wrong on so many levels due to your subjective personal history with men, which you need to deal with like a mature adult. The fact is, you don't care what disadvantages men have, nor do you believe they exist.
Look at your anger, foul language, and inability to have a civil discussion. Other women (and men) have it had it a lot tougher than you, but don't resort to the crybaby-antics. That is taking "advantage" of men, and selfishly speaking for other women. On SO MANY LEVELS..
I'm not saying that you are wrong in your opinion, but let me offer a different sort of opinion from a middle aged, cis, white woman.
For the most part I do not feel that I have any disadvantages. I have had to fight for equal pay at jobs, and I've worked jobs where women weren't allowed to have certain positions because they are women. Now, I will say that that has changed, but I have experienced that in my life.
I also do not feel that I have any advantage being a woman. I'd like to know where this special treatment is for me? i didn't have any advantage in my divorce, but we didn't have children. Even then where I live a most custody is being split 50/50 and whomever is making more money is the one that has to pay, no matter which sex, which I think is totally fair, and I'm glad that things are moving in that direction.
I think that both sexes feel that the other has the advantage in the dating world. Dating sucks and it's not easier just because you are female. Please, show me how that is? I think dating is easier for both sexes based on how you look. Whether you can keep a relationship, well looks don't matter so much then, but yeah. I disagree with you there.
Now, when it comes to harassment and assault, I'm going to have to disagree with you again. Granted I'm in my early 40s and I'm not a target as much as I used to be. I will also say that consent education has helped. But when you say that men grovel at women's feet, I'm glad that is how you feel. These are my experiences, but I still have to be aware of my surroundings at all times. I've had the unpleasant experience of having a man take an upskirt photo of me about a year and half ago. He had over 100 pictures of women.
Cat calling is not showing respect. Following a woman in a mall is not respect. Calling women nasty names when they politely say they aren't interested is not respect. Grabbing a woman's ass is not respect, even less respect is grabbing breasts.
And I was countering that it's not just obscenely wealthy men. I was stating that I have experienced every single one of those things and many of those things not too long ago, and I can say that almost every woman I know has experienced some sort harassment.
You have not explained how men have it way worse when it comes to dating? I do really want to know. How is it way worse?
Isn’t it obvious? For starters they have the burden of having to approach women, and once they work up the nerve to do it they usually get rejected often with a nasty attitude no matter how gentlemanly they are.
Women hold men to a much higher standard than vice versa. I’ve been told by most people, male and female, that I’m good looking. I have also been told by most people that I have a ton of personality. Yet I still have plenty of difficulty. I can only imagine how others do.
Women constantly say they want a “nice” guy who simply shows he cares and does cute stuff like hold the door and buy them flowers. They post on social media daily about how no such men exist and they are doomed to be single forever when they are constantly presented with the hundreds of men more than willing to do all of these things. Then they end up dating an asshole who cheats, verbally and physically abuses them and isn’t even attractive! It literally makes no sense, and leaves millions of more than eligible guys frustrated and confused.
When they speak out about it women lash out projecting their emotionally backwards psyche calling them “incels” and women hating trolls, and paint the majority of men as abusive dogs based on their experience dealing with the small minority of men they choose to date. It’s really pathetic and tragic.
I used to think like you. First of all, I just wanna discuss about dating and not the OG topic of the thread. All right.
Now, you said that women date assholes guys who cheat and abuse them and then lash out calling men incels from the their experience dealing with the small minority of men they choose to date. I agree wholeheartedly with this.
But then, if there are (at least) two kinds of men: assholes and nice guys... aren't there must be (at least) also two kinds of women: assholes and nice girls.
Those women you talked about are, in my opinion, assholes.
Thus, don't bother with them.
Try to find the other kind... the nice girls instead. Asshole women deserves those asshole men. The nice girls, on the other hand, deserve the nice guys.
I think it's pretty explanatory. You and me, and many other men, are nice guys. I had tried approaching those asshole women too, but either they rejected me or I'm abused by them. Either way, it's no good.
Then I realize, why bother? Right? So I try to approach the nice girls instead. Turns out, many women are actually pretty nice. As nice as us, the nice guys. I found one and now she's my wife.
The dating process was not difficult at all. In fact, it was very straightforward. I asked her for a date. She agreed. Then we talked. And talked. And doing things together. And eventually we got married.
No social media drama. No cringy status updates. No name callings. No on and off relationship modes. Nothing. I do what nice guys do, and she does what nice girls do. Nobody is being an asshole.
Like I said, I was just discussing the dating sub-topic of this thread. For the OG topic, I don't think women nowadays are that disadvantages in ALL things. Maybe in some things. But then again, men also may be disadvantaged in some other things too. That is all.
I said that they lash out at the nice guys calling THEM incels, not the small percentage of assholes they choose to date. They paint ALL men as assholes based on the minority of men they choose to date.
The nice girl/nice guy thing is not accurate in my experience, even the wholesome girl next door responds more positively to mistratement than gentlemanly behavior.
Are there exceptions to this? Sure.
It doesn't matter whom they lash out to. Those girls are assholes. Assholes do what assholes do.
I don't know about your experiences, but not all women are like that. Or are you painting ALL women badly based on your experience dealing with the minority of women you choose to approach?
See the pattern here? If that's the case, then you might not the nice guy you thought you are.
Absolutely correct. Most of these "nice guys" are just frauds who think the way to bang hot chicks is to grovel for them. They only approach these girls based on superficial criteria, then get jaded when they are shot down on superficial criteria. I see this all the time and think, "who the f are you approaching, nerd?"
Unfortunately it's not as simple as asshole women and nice girls. MovieBuff224's description of attraction politics is very accurate. It's great that you met you're wife but that kind of situation is quite rare. And I'm not saying being picky and favoring the bad boy makes women assholes. All women are predisposed to this behavior and there is a psychological reason for it:
Back in primitive times the female would be attracted to specific male traits such as confidence, alpha behavior and physical strength as these traits would determine the male's potential for future leadership within the tribe while the weaker beta males would tend to be cast aside. This would mean better protection and ability to provide for her and her offspring.
Things are different today as those alpha and physical traits are not as necessary. But evolution hasn't caught up so people are all still controlled by those same instincts.
When it comes to women's frequent rejection of men there is similar psychology at play. In those primitive days sex was actually very dangerous for women. There was no contraception so sex often led to pregnancy. And without today's medical care women often died during childbirth. For men there was no risk at all in having sex. So it makes perfect sense why women would be extremely selective about who they mated with and why men could be promiscuous. How many women would you sleep with if it meant you could die? I'm guessing you'd cross a fair few off your list.
It was a survival mechanism. And again the human race hasn't evolved to catch up with medical science.
So "just looking for the nice girls" is a nice thought but unfortunately it doesn't really work in the real world. And I don't blame women for being this way, it's not really their choice. It's just how it is.
I understand you better than the other poster. I think the difference is how we define "assholes" and "nice guys."
I used the more literal version of both of the word. Not the most literal, of course, cause that would mean "assholes" are anuses. What I meant with "assholes" are cheating people, toxic people, overly dramatic people, people that always blame others, irresponsible people, men or women. They are "assholes."
Your definition is more on the figurative side. "Assholes" means alpha, confident people, leading people, people that don't accept no for an answer, etc.
Yes, sometimes (or maybe most of the time) those alpha people are also assholes / jerks / crooks so it's interchangeable colloquially. But it's not very true. I'll get into this later.
Then there's the terms "nice guys" or "nice girls." I know, today many people use these terms to mock other people. "Nice" being equivalent to "wimpy" or "weak." The same also happens to the word "virgin," as if it was bad or stupid to be a virgin. A virgin simply means never fornicate. It's not evil or something.
Being nice is not a bad behaviour. It's just being a good person. You help others, you being considerate, you being civil and respect people, etc. Basically not being an asshole.
Like I said earlier, the other poster looks like he painted ALL women badly from his encounters with women he choose to approach. This is not what a good man do. This is exactly what people mocking "nice guys" were ridiculing.
A guy that behaves assholey but consider himself a "nice" man. The same can be said to those women. Girls that only dating assholes / jerks and then blame it on ALL men saying all men are pigs etc. But in the same time consider themselves "pretty" and "beautiful in the inside," etc.
No, these toxic women are not beautiful. They are not nice. Their behavior is not pretty. They are in fact assholes.
Being a nice guy is not about being weak and wimpy, needy and whiney, constantly blaming others, etc. We can be a confident "alpha" while still being nice. Alphas don't always mean being a jerk.
I hope I clearly explained what I meant. I think you're also right in your psycho-evolution assesements, it is what it is. Women want strong, confident, listening and protecting men. Good women know how to differentiate that from jerky behaviors. Bad women don't but they complain a lot and make drama out of it. Avoid the bad women and everything will be fine.
Oh yes, of course not all alpha men are assholes. I was merely trying to convey why women respond so well to men that are assholes. Assholes usually demonstrate alpha behavior. Nice guys sometimes do and sometimes don't. But also women respond more to assholes because when they do things like cheat or put them down they represent themselves as a challenge. A challenge to be conquered. And women feel so much better about themselves, so much more special if the man they are with is a man they have won rather than a man that has dropped into her lap.
With regards to Moviebuff244? You suggest he only chooses to approach asshole women. And I don't think that's true. Women generally are very fussy about the men they choose. Nice women and asshole women. And as I said before I don't think that makes them bad people it's just part of human nature.
I have had friends who are women (usually decent people), they'll get approached by a likable guy who is probably better looking than they are and yet they will turn them down and tell me they were ugly. I've seen this very frequently.
I don't think MB244 is complaining about the fact that women turn him down like some kind of wimpy, fake, nice guy. I think he is simply using it as an argument in the gender equality debate. An argument that I think is perfectly valid. Feminists claim that women are disadvantaged in the workplace (and their claims may be true, they may not. I'm not knowledgeable enough in that area to say.) and MB244 is claiming men are disadvantaged in romantic relationships. And I think it's very healthy to debate these things. We shouldn't only be hearing one gender's side of the argument.
I don't know much about MB224 tho'. That was just what I felt from his objection on women that they were lashing out to all men based on their experiences from small minority of men they chose to date.
I think we are generally on the same page here actually. I was more into giving an insight on how to succesfully playing the dating game without being an asshole. You are more into why things are. Which I've never disagreed on.
My current opinion on dating is that it is asymetrical. Men approach girls they like, women weed out the ones they don't like. Which one is more disadvantaged? I don't know. It's not a competition, anyhow.
About feminists' claims... they are mostly political, I believe. And with everything political, it's about who wins, not what's right.
It is way harder for men. Attraction is not balanced in a 50/50 split and women are a lot choosier. There are psychological reasons for this and if you're interested I've gone into more detail in my reply to actionkamen above.
But as MovieBuff224 already stated, it is expected for the man to approach the woman and he will often get rejected. A woman doesn't have to go through this and it is a lot harder than it looks. Which is why so many men do it badly and come across as creepy or weird.
But just consider the characteristics that each gender disqualifies on. For men there is only really one aspect that they disqualify women for. If they're fat. And that's not nice. It isn't. But do you think women don't disqualify men for being fat? Of course they do. But they also disqualify men for being short, for being skinny and for many other specific things. How many men have you heard saying "I wouldn't date her. She's too skinny."
On a night out an average looking woman will be approached by men many times a night. She doesn't count many of them because they are dismissed as weird or creepy. An average looking guy will never be approached. Not even by creepy girls.
For a shy, ugly girl it's going to be hard to find a boyfriend. On the flipside, for a shy, ugly man? It ain't gonna happen. He will most likely be a virgin for life.
While men don't understand what it's like for women regarding harassment I think that women don't understand what it's like for men regarding dating. And there are other areas in which men are disadvantaged that I won't go into here as my post is long enough as it is. But I don't think we should be making a competition over which gender has it worse.
Personally I do think that women have it a little better overall. But arguing over it isn't getting the human race anywhere. It's just making people hostile and divided. Both genders have issues and we should all be talking about them civilly and listening to each other.
But it's acceptable to cat-call men, casually put their arms around them, comment on their handsome looks, kiss them without permission (etc), and not give it a thought. Yet, a man would be punished (or jailed) for the same thing. That is very disrespectful towards men.
In general, women want a free pass when it serves them out of self-entitlement, and because they assume men are not as sensitive as women and will be so flattered and appreciative of their embraces. Not to mention, slapping a man and not expecting to be slapped back. If women want equality, then it works both ways. But I don't think really want equality; there's too much to lose.
Please don't say you. I've not cat-called a male nor would I put my arms around anyone I don't know male or female. Nor do I find it appropriate. Consent goes both ways. I consider it assault to slap anyone. I don't care if it's a girl slapping a man or another woman, or a man who hits anyone. It's assault, and the law sees it that way too. No whether police see it that way is out of my control.
Did I say that women were perfect? Nope, I did not. I even said that women were guilty as well. I just think that it happens more to women than to men, most likely due to archaic gender roles that are still prevalent to a small degree in western society.
Couple of things: Some women may actually like being cat-called and pursued since it makes them feel attractive .I don't mean stalked and harassed, that's different.
Every woman is different with different boundaries. Yet, it seems that women do not give the same thought to a man's choice of boundaries. Also, I didn't assume you implied that anyone here does these things. I, personally, think it's stupid to keep aggressively pursuing a woman who is not interested.
How come in yesteryear, just as many strong, confident, independent, self-respecting women did not mind some of the things that are now considered "disrespect"? Because they were afraid to protest? I don't feel we are really getting to the core of this; but that there could be an equal number of women who are jumping on the anti-male ''me-too'' bandwagon because they think that's what they are expected to do. At any rate, you have been willing to have a civil discussion.
Screaming at each other will do nothing for understanding, so I thank you for being civil in return.
This is a topic that I have done a lot of research on for my job, so I do like to hear different opinions. I think you are right. Some women do like attention from men, whether it be in cat-calling, or otherwise. Depending on the situation it can be flattering. Unfortunately, many times it's not, and it seems that boundaries are not quite understood. I do think things are better from men now than they were 20 years ago.
I think part of the problem with yesteryear, is that it was expected. We, women might not have liked it, but it was just the way it was and there was no point in complaining about it so we just dealt with it. When a 40+ year old man would call out disgusting things to a 12 year old, no one really said anything. Not other men, and certainly not the women or the child. Nowadays, I don't think anyone would really let that slide.
I do not think that most feminists are the stereotypical "angry dyke" types (sorry for the slur). I do think that like with every group of people you do get the assholes, and I think that there are women who are abusing boundaries. No doubt there are.
I think that what isn't quite understood by a lot of males, is that all it takes is one man to grab a woman by the ass, or to follow her in the mall or not leave her alone on the bus to feel afraid. I know that men are harassed as well, not saying that they are not, but I don't know if there is the same amount of fear attached to that harassment. I could very well be wrong. But I will put that out there to any man who wants to answer.
If you are walking somewhere by yourself, and a woman starts chatting you up, and you make polite conversation but make it clear that you are not interested, and that woman keeps following you, are you afraid? or are you just annoyed?
If this happens in a mall, of course I won't be afraid. But if it's in a not so good neighborhood I will.
See, I'm an Asian so eventhough I'm a male sometimes I'm smaller than women. You know, white women and black women.
Kungfu movies are bullshit. We Asians are NOT kungfu masters. Even if some of us do martial arts, it's still pretty much useless againts bigger opponents. Or armed one. Or even multiple smaller opponents. The only effective self defense is running away.
So if somebody (whatever sex or gender they might be) keep following me in a not so good neighborhood I'll be afraid. I'll be very very afraid.
I can appreciate that. Even though I'm tall, if I were in a sketchy neighbourhood I'd be nervous if I was being followed by a woman as well.
The thing is, I'm not talking about being in a not so good neighbourhood. I'm talking middle of the day, good area grocery store, mall, bus stop. I think that's the big difference for me.
I'm not very sure women are actually afraid if they are in a mall in the middle of the day, for example. Feeling cautious maybe, but I don't know, I'm not a woman.
Also men are conditioned since young age to not be afraid to anything (or to suppress the feeling of fear, internally and externally.) So eventhough some of men may be afraid, they won't show and they won't tell. Even when they are being honest. Because that's what is expected from a man. They are just trying to be, you know, men.
I think women can be conditioned like that too through education and training, i.e., female police officers, military, etc.
I'm pretty sure they surely would NOT be afraid when they are followed by a man in a mall.
Yeah. I feel what you said. However, there is no escape to this. If the men treated like that don't like those things please they should say so.
These women disrespecting men sometimes oblivious to the implications of what they do. I'd say call them out.
If they keep doing it after a 'no' then it's an assault. There are asshole men and there are asshole women. Like you said, these women don't want equality.
I agree. Equal-rights is different than behavioral-traits, though. All of a sudden, women expect human nature (behavioral-traits) to cease, yet then they would complain and blame men for not being assertive enough and label them wimps.
If people really had serious problems in life, so many of these issues would fade in comparison and said women would have less time on their hands to find something "inappropriate". The difference is that men accept their disadvantages in life more, while women have a need to whine about it (not all women, of course). Unfortunately, this is exactly why men may tend to not take women seriously, since the immature women are doing their female peers a disservice.
There was a journalist, I think she was Canadian, not sure though. Well, she cross-dressed and lived as a man for a whole year, everything included, looking for a job, dating, and so. She wrote a book about her experience.
She was asked whether men or women had it harder. Her answer was that both had it rough, though for different causes. If she had to choose, though, she would say that women had it better. Not much of a difference in the final balance, but a bit better.
"But when you say that men grovel at women's feet, I'm glad that is how you feel."
He's talking about most guys. Not the ones who get laid. Ironically, men who are sexually aggressive are more likely to obtain consent. Being sexually aggressive necessarily requires some element of assuming consent before it is actually expressed. Most guys are too insecure to even talk to a girl. So that's what's actually happening there.
Excuse me? Women have had it rough throughout history. Discrimination, bigotry, witch burning, weak noodle arms etc.. I could go on and on about the many reasons why being the 2nd best gender is bad.
And now with the introduction of 48 other genders women aren't even in the top 5 in the pound for pound sense. For example, male to female transsexuals have combined the superior physical traits of the man with all the good and deeply sexual qualities possessed by women while maintaining the logical and undisputed scientific brain of the man.
This would usually only drop women down to 3rd place but apparently there's this inter-species gender called furries or some shit and they have tails and all so yeah women have been unequivocally and irredeemably BTFO.
HISTORY IS HISTORY.WE LIVE IN THE NOW...JUST FOR CLARIFICATION...I HAVE A GREAT UNCLE WHO WAS BLACK...I AM WHITE AS WHITE CAN BE THOUGH...SHALL I BEGIN TO CALL OUT PEOPLE FOR DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM AGAINST ME....NOPE..PAST IS THE PAST...GROW UP AND MOVE ON.
Even throughout history, at least in the West women still had good in certain ways. But here is the real kicker for you.
Even men were treated like crap, ok now stay with me, just because a man was treated like crap in say 1755, what does that have to do with ME, right now? Can I claim some kind of victim status because of that?
Excuse me? Women have had it rough throughout history. Discrimination, bigotry, witch burning, weak noodle arms etc.. I could go on and on about the many reasons why being the 2nd best gender is bad.
You're focusing only in what women had worse. What about wars?. It was men the ones who had to fight. What about providing? men were supposed to provide for their family no matter what. Men used to work hard to build some wealth so they could marry a young woman. It was up to them to build the wealth of the family. You can't just take what serves you best and forget the rest. Being a man was really rough during centuries.
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