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Arghhhh's Replies
"SW fans are literally the worst fans".
You know you're on an message board on the bowels of the internet defending/whining about star wars right?
You do realise you are a Star Wars fan by definition?
Do you include yourself in that sweeping statement I wonder?
Tell me how many films feature the villain from the first film as the hero in the 2nd?
Almost none.
So yeah - it's the same story line but they gave it a nice twist and then filled it with new action beats.
I'd think a better example would be say Die hard 2 which is a decent action film in its own right but is a shameless rip-off of the original and it got a lot of flack for that ("How does the same shit happen to the same guy - twice?" Yeah, exactly!)
A dumbed down version of Kurosawa
with cool visual effects
Set in space
And remind me again how many other dumbed down Kurosawa films set in space with cool visual effects have you seen? Has anyone ever seen?
None.
Because it was....
Incredibly. Original.
So how did it change cinema - almost overnight, if it wasn't unlike anything anybody had ever seen before?
It had it's impact *because* it was original.
If I was to take the story of King Lear and tell it in a way that has never been done before, in a way that redefines an established artform, then I would say that is something original even if the DNA was taken from something else. It's the presence of the new that counts (with regards to originality), not the total absence of the old.
Your 2nd point makes no sense as I never said it was the story that caused the impact (though that's a part of it) - it was the film as a whole.
You actually make a good point here Froggy and this is one of the many many flaws with the prequels. The Luke and Yoda we've seen in the prequels would never just bugger off to planets unknown and sit around waiting for something to happen. They're far too heroic and also way too powerful. Yes they've gone through the trauma of the Emperor taking power but they would be in the front lines, leading the resistance, not skulking around in caves. It's pretty clear from ANH that the Force - while powerful - is quite subtle and doesn't turn its users into indestructible super heroes. Which is why Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Because they're NOT the super heroes they're shown to be in the prequels.
But once again you can't excuse away flaws from one film just by pointing to flaws in another - especially films that are widely regarded as being terrible.
And - as everybody here knows - your points re Luke as a Mary Sue are simply put: bollocks.
ANH is one of the most original films ever made which is why it changed cinema forever. It was influenced by many many things (mainly, as Froggy says below - Flash Gordon) however the final product was unlike anything that had ever been seen up until that point. Saying Star Wars is unoriginal is like saying the Beatles were unoriginal as they just 'imitated Buddy Holly and the Crickets'.
TFA is a near beat for beat remake and what little originality there is essentially breaks the story.
If episode X is yet another remake of ANH will that be ok too? And if not, why is it ok for VII?
Well, I'll look forward to it to. And I'll be sure to look out The Lady Eve.
One thing though - the UK version of pusher is a remake of the original Danish film (and most like terrible).
You're totally right but I guess people justify it because Jon loves his brother.
Here's how BotB should have gone in my head (more GRRM and less Hollywoo - hopefully):
Jon and Sansa *plan* to catch Ramsay in a pincer between themselves and the Vale
Ramsey goads Jon into a stupid rescue attempt which *almost* wrecks the plan as Jon's forces have to attack early (just like in the show)
The vale get there just in time and save the day (just like in the show)
However, many men and lords of the north have been killed, eroding Jon's power base
And they are now totally dependent on the Vale and Littlefinger (And we'll just pretend that terrible Littlefinger Scooby Doo inspired 'trial' never happens....)
Which has big consequences for the future
His character is further defined as: Great man, terrible king
For me this makes Jon's foolishness acceptable (from a story point of view) because it has consequences. That is one of the key themes of GoT: choices have consequences. Especially foolish choices. Now that theme has warped into: Go nuts with foolish consequences because the writers will dig you out of any hole you fall into with an ass-pull. Such a shame.
I haven't seen the Lady Eve but the others are all great films, no question.
My 5 favourites....? Impossible to say but just from the top of my head I will go with:
Oldboy
Once Upon a Time in the West
Pusher
Branded to Kill
Kind Hearts & Coronets
You may enjoy this [url]https://www.theringer.com/movies/2018/7/2/17524984/armageddon-dvd-commentary-20th-anniversary[/url]
Yes, you're right and the BotB was actually the exact moment (for me) it went full Hollywood. I wouldn't have minded so much but the idea that Sansa kept Rob in the dark about asking the Vale for help... I mean, why? For the lulz? To see the look on his face when they turned up? Assuming they're not all dead by that point of course! It was a completely unnecessary 'twist' that almost spoiled a fantastically exciting episode. In fact, I only gave it a pass because it was the first time GoT pulled that shit and I justified it in my head as 'well, Hollywood moments have to happen in real life at some point so fair enough'. Little did I realise this was going to be the new norm for the show - constant ass pulls from the writers.
All fair points Filmbuff.
I'd only add one thing - for a fair comparison we need to compare the people that watched that video to the people who watched TLJ, rather than the entire population. But yes, it's still going to be a tiny percentage.
No doubt see you in another post - where we will probably completely disagree!
Vi ses.
Froggy. Your words are a mirror, one that reveals the ugly truth concerning my words and actions, my thoughts and deeds. It has given me cause to pause, to consider and reflect. I want to tell you I have reached a startling conclusion and I shall forever be in your debt for the part you played in its unveiling: Rey, is indeed, a Mary Sue.
Just saw it. Thought it was great. Title is a bit of a spoiler though....
The A-team mission beyond the wall complete with quick travel, Skype ravens, and a double deus ex machina (first dragon lady THEN uncle half-zombie rescuing Jon Snow whose plot armour is now so thick it includes resurrection).
It's up there as one of the all time 'worst thing to ever happen to a good thing' in history.
The most infuriating thing about GoT is that it seems to be betraying it's core ideals. People loved it because it was *anti* Hollywood, they want to watch the tragedy and triumph of deep characters betraying, murdering and fucking each other: even if that meant plot points took 3 years to be resolved or having to watch people taking so long to walk through a forest they've gone through puberty before they've reached the other side.
Now it's just fucking cgi dragons and cliched goodies vs baddies story-lines with a main villain with less depth than Skeletor.
It can still be rescued in the final season but I hope to god they've listened to the criticism - or that they are forced to include more GRR Martin stuff that he's given them for the ending.
Buffy, I know I've been very critical of your views in the past but it always brings joy to my heart when people with differing views find something they actually agree on.
You make some very good points, and maybe I need to remind myself that this site is a bit of an echo chamber, with 'haters' seemingly outnumbering 'defenders'.
This said, I still think there is a disconnect, and a big one:
Cinemascore gather reviews on the opening day (I believe) - this is when hype is maximised (true for all films I know but the hype for a new Star Wars film is something else - prior to TLJ backlash at least).
IMDB seems to be suffering from severe ratings inflation with more recent films having unfairly high scores (IMO). I feel like any film made in the last 10 years needs at least a point knocking off the score to make it a fair comparison.
RT themselves state the score wasn't manipulated (I know they're biased) and their is credible evidence that the score should actually be lower due to the site ignoring 1/2 star reviews.
Then we have the Youtubers who only have to put an anti TLJ comment in the title to get 100,000+ views. Maybe this is a relatively small group of angry fans all watching the same types of videos, all working each other up, but still, look at this for example:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk[/url]
This is part 1 of a 5 hour rant(!) by an almost unheard of (until recently) Youtuber and it has 650,000+ views and 20,000 likes (vs 750 dislikes).
When over 600,000 people are happy to watch random strangers tear apart a film that 91% of professional critics showered in praise I'd call that a pretty huge disconnect.
And I think it's an example of market correction: as you say, most critics seem to be lefties and I think we've seen a very unfortunate 'coagulation' of the web leading to a slew of sites that seem identical: Vox, Huffpo, the Verge, etc - all selling the same crap in the same way to the same people.
Because of bias. I don't think a reviewer watches a film and thinks, 'Well, that was awful but now I'm going to give it 5* do to X, Y & Z'. I think it's more a case of 'Well, that was wonderful due to X, Y & Z, 5*!'.
So no, I don't think anyone watched VIII and disliked it but then gave it a good review, I think the critics watched it, went *exceptionally* easy on it and then gave it 5*. Now I don't really care if lots of critics do this but what happened with VIII is that they nearly *all* seemed to, resulting in possibly the biggest disconnect between critics and audiences in history.
We've seen this before of course, but it was usually with 'arty' films which makes sense: those films are never meant to have mass appeal so when a small arthouse film gets rapturous critical praise and is exposed to a large audience - who then hate it - we see these kinds of discrepancies, but Disney Star Wars is as popcorn blockbustery as it gets so I'm at a loss to explain it.
But that was VIII. And now we've seen the argument turn more and more toxic, with many critics writing articles accusing large numbers of Star Wars fans of being problematic... so that leads me to the question: even if IX is awful, will the critics admit it, even to themselves? Like it or not Star Wars has become an internet battleground and I suspect that even if IX is beyond TPM levels of terrible very few bloggers will be prepared to admit it, lest 'the other side' 'win'.
I think it's ridiculous that it's come to this but this is where I think we are. What do you think?
"Have a nice life"?
Did we just break up!
"then why do you waste so much of your time and money seeing movies when you already have such low expectations, and then waste even more time picking them apart and wondering why they are so bad."
Because you don't know they're bad until you see them - then you see them and you realise they've bad - then you read the reviews which just seem to ignore all the faults - then you go to an internet forum to discuss whether it actually is a bad film or not, to gain different perspectives, to vent, to argue, to discuss - then you find one of the periodic posts that pop up here which go something like "It's just a movie". Well, no shit! It is just a movie and this is just a movie discussion board, so how the hell anyone can have the brass neck to state that people shouldn't discuss movies but apparently it's ok for them to discuss the discussions of movies is beyond me. It essentially boils down to this:
"I don't like what people are saying here and so I just wish they would stop saying it". You're not going to try to engage and find out *why* people have these views, you're not going to try to explain *your* point of view you just want everyone who disagrees with you to instantly change their minds because you say so.
This is the approach of a child.
And then when somebody challenges this childish approach to life you come up with lines like "Have a nice life!" which is only 2 shades less pathetic than "La la la I'm not interesting".
Well I've tell you what Artguylarry - why not set up your own movie forum, where everyone can get together and agree with each other about how they couldn't care less if films are well done or not, and see what wonderful and insightful conversations you can have.
"It was mediocre - I loved it!"
"I too didn't care about many of its flaws!"
"It was the most average film of the year. 5*s out of 5!"
Good luck!
Your first line was that 'you didn't care less if it was done well or not'? What good film wasn't 'done well'?
Now it's fine if you don't care but I find it a very strange argument to try and demand your fellow movie goers be as blase as yourself with regards to quality.
And we're now at a point where abjectly awful Star Wars films *outnumber* the good ones. Thanks - in part - to the attitude of "I couldn't care less if it is well done or not". Well guess what - neither does Disney! So I think it's wonderful you've found each other!
Well I can tell you - it's no act!
And thank you for quoting my own post back to me and then offering no explanation for your points. Just "I'm right because I'm right". I expect nothing less from you by now Buffy.
It's a post with about 70 replies and lots of legitimate discussion... so why don't you join in?
I still have no idea how you think it's political? You could say it was crass, you could say it was childish, you could say it was unfunny... but I have no idea how you think it's political.
And while I'm been hyperbolic I'm being serious - there have been a series of race baiting articles written recently be established sites with titles like "Star Wars has a white male fandom problem" which has further politicised the debate (NOT something I am for) which brings me to the post: Do you think - given how toxic the debate has become - that IX will get honest reviews? Honest question and I genuinely want to know what you think.