Could an entirely original Woke fantasy series succeed? - The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (2022) Discussion

[–] sokar (2098) 3 years ago

No as it won't be diverse enough. They will always find a way to complain about something.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Uh, most Fantasy genre stuff is on the woke side from the get-go, and is about people from diverse communities, races, backgrounds, social classes, and species, coming together to form a fellowship of good guys.

If you haven't noticed that, you've never read much Fantasy. Or any.

reply

[–] whynotwriteme (7817) 3 years ago

Uh, nope. Not Woke like they're pooping out today.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Oh, not woke enough to satisfy the professional complainers, but you have no room to talk shit about people who make complaining about petty political or social issues online a hobby or a full-time job!

Seriously, the Fantasy genre as a whole is left-leaning, because the demographics demand it. The typical Fantasy reader is a female who believes in goodness and common decency, who sympathizes with the downtrodden and who believes that everyone should get a fair deal regardless of race, sex, nationality, and (frequently) sexual/gender orientation, so stuff that appeals to the typical reader is what gets published. If you want stories that celebrate white men, monocultures, alpha males, or the correctness of respecting authority, forget out of Fantasy. The fandoms won't miss you.

reply

[–] LanceDance (1394) 3 years ago

Seriously, the Fantasy genre as a whole is left-leaning, because the demographics demand it.

lol the fantasy genre is quite heavy in right-wing/conservative values, but ok bud.

The typical Fantasy reader is a female who believes in goodness and common decency, who sympathizes with the downtrodden and who believes that everyone should get a fair deal regardless of race, sex, nationality, and (frequently) sexual/gender orientation, so stuff that appeals to the typical reader is what gets published.

If it was a romantic fantasy story, then sure, the typical reader would be female. Otherwise it's as I said, fantasy leans heavy on the right, which has always been about equality and tolerance; as opposed to the left, which is about supremacy and intolerance. Thanks for proving my point. That last part about sexuality/gender orientation might apply more to leftist stories, especially these days, but hey, "don't ask, don't tell". The LGBT can do their thing as long as they're not forcing others to like them.

If you want stories that celebrate white men, monocultures, alpha males, or the correctness of respecting authority, forget out of Fantasy. The fandoms won't miss you.

Not sure what fantasies you were reading/watching before 2010, but that's how it's always been, the only difference is that the race of the characters is based on who's telling the story. Whether it's white, black, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc, that's how the fantasy genre is, until 2010-2015 anyway, when the Obama years brought out the woke writers. Even in fantasies where different cultures clashed, they never portrayed each culture as being multi-racial/ethnic. One culture was one race, and another culture was another race. That's how you show diversity, not shoving a bunch of people into one area with no sense of identity.

reply

[–] whynotwriteme (7817) 3 years ago

You've obviously only been reading fantasy since 2014 or so.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

No, since the 1970s.

Ever since LOTR became really popular, lots and lots of genre writers have followed Tolkien's basic model, of having a group of heroes from disparate nations, sizes, species, and (usually) sexes form a fellowship of good guys and defeat the evildoers who believe in racial purity and other such nonsense.

reply

[–] whynotwriteme (7817) 3 years ago

The Wokeness I am talking about involves changing races of established characters to suit PC preferences and having ridiculous isolated medieval villages with the racial demographics of large 21st century American cities. The diverse adventuring parties of novels like LOTR and Sword of Shannara etc. are nothing like this. I'm not objecting to having 3 humans, 4 hobbits, and an elf and a dwarf in the party.

reply

[–] Kowalski (79128) 3 years ago

I'm not objecting to having 3 humans, 4 hobbits, and an elf and a dwarf in the party.

OF COURSE YOU AREN'T...YOU'RE OBJECTING TO THE FACT THAT THE " 3 humans, 4 hobbits, and an elf and a dwarf in the party." AREN'T ALL STRAIGHT & WHITE BY RULE.🤔

reply

[–] whynotwriteme (7817) 3 years ago

If Tolkien had written that Gandalf was gay, Aragorn was black, Frodo was in a wheelchair, Sam was Asian, Merry was trans, Pippin was an Inuit zoophile, Boromir was a Hispanic lesbian, Legolas was autistic and Gimli was a Jewish grandmother, then I wouldn't have any objections. I probably wouldn't read the books or watch the movies and shows, but I would not be objecting to the portrayal of the story as it was written.

What I object to is that they are changing the world Tolkien created in order to push their Woke message.

They know perfectly well that an original Woke fantasy series would fail miserably, so the only way they can get their propaganda made is to steal and corrupt established fantasy worlds.

reply

[–] Kowalski (79128) 3 years ago

If Tolkien had written that Gandalf was gay, Aragorn was black, Frodo was in a wheelchair, Sam was Asian, Merry was trans, Pippin was an Inuit zoophile, Boromir was a Hispanic lesbian, Legolas was autistic and Gimli was a Jewish grandmother, then I wouldn't have any objections.

THOSE ARE SOME SERIOUSLY OUT THERE SUGGESTIONS...NON OF WHICH ARE IN PLAY...WHAT IS IN PLAY IS THE SIMPLE FACT THAT SOME OF THE ACTORS CHOSEN WON'T BE WHITE...I STILL FAIL TO SEE THE STICKING POINT ON THIS TOPIC.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

But this story isn't about the end of the 3rd age when Aragorn lived, this story is about the 2nd age of Middle Earth, when the cosmopolitan and presumably multiracial empire of Numenor dominated geopolitics, and there were a greater variety of elves and dwarves around.

Of course Gandalf was still around, did you hear the rumor that we won't be seeing the Gandalf we know, but Olorin in the form of a human female? Yeah, that's the rumor, a female Gandalf! Canonically there's no reason it can't happen, because Maiar can assume any form they like. There's absolutely no reason they have to be male, but you assholes will probably lose your shit over it anway.

reply

[–] alienzen (1931) 3 years ago

The typical fantasy reader is female? What a stupid thing to say. Fantasy is the most male leaning genre that exists, except for maybe Sci-fi.
I mean technically if you include things like twilight, Interview with the vampire and other nonsense that is basically porn for women dressed up as fantasy, then you will get a lot of female fantasy readers. It's one of those lying statistics like women being the majority of "gamers" if you count someone who plays Candy Crush as a gamer.

reply

[–] Towelie_Towel (1786) 3 years ago

Just because some piece of art/entertainment sends a good message of equality, feminism and tolerance does not make it "woke".

What makes it woke is the absurd insertion of diverse characters just for the sake of diversity, and the gatekeeping of certain cultures.

Examples:
- Schindler's List advocating for saving jewish people does not make it woke
- Lord of the Rings making the dwarf and the elf, who initially hated each other, become best friends and overcome their differences does not make it woke

On the contrary:
- Forcing a diverse cast in an established world that was not imagined like this, effectively changing the original work and adding nothing substancial besides diversity for the sake of diversity; this is woke
- This week I read someone saying they will refuse to watch West Side Story because Spielberg is a white director telling the story of non-white people in America. I don't even know where to start in this.
Spielberg who made The Color Purple can't make West Side Story...
West Side Story, a musical created by another jewish white guy...
West Side Story, a musical that has half the cast being white people...
And even if these things weren't true, why do we need to "gatekeep" this? Now a director must match the race being depicted in the movie in order to be "allowed" to direct it?
Woke alert to the maximum.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Yeah, well, a lot of Wokist kids are fools, but their hearts are more or less in the right place. Which at least makes them better people than the conservative fools.

As for giving POC jobs in a Tolkien-based series, it's the Second Age, and the Numenorean Empire is going to be heavily involved. I always imagined the Numenorean Empire as being like the ancient Roman Empire, a colonial nation that both dragged and attracted people of all colors and races from over the known world. Tolkien never said that all the peoples of Beleriand who imigrated to Numenor were all white, and the Numenorean Empire extended to Harad in the south, which would definitely make darker Haradrim members of Numenorean society. As for hobbits, Tolkien described them as having curly hair and browner or fairer skin, so no problem there, and he never described how the dwarvish racial groupings looked, and only ever talked about a few of their seven nations. As for elves, what the hell, I don't mind if they aren't all pasty-pale, as they're traditionally conceived, Tolkien didn't pay much attention his rules about elven coloring anyway.

Don't take this as an invitation to debate, BTW, I only debate people I take seriously, or when I want to say something to the world at large and use a response to some asshole to tell people in general what I think. And I definitely don't take the racists who are whining about actors of color in a Tolkien show seriously.

reply

[–] Towelie_Towel (1786) 3 years ago

Ok, cool, I guess?

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Bye.

reply

[–] Towelie_Towel (1786) 3 years ago

See you later.

reply

[–] JoeBlow88 (574) 3 years ago

I can only think of female written fantasy books being woke. The Sword of Truth Series was nothing like that. It was arguably more popular for the teenagers (late 90s) than LoTR - before the movies came out. Long before it was cool to read.

Terry Goodkind wrote woke stuff to portray it poorly - in one book the enemy infiltrated a nation a generation before the invasion. They were spreading leftist ideals like women into the military and positions of power. The arrogant female military believed they were as strong as men. The nation was easily overpowered and the military women were so weak they received surprise sex mid-battle battle.

reply

[–] whynotwriteme (7817) 3 years ago

Which volume was that in? Sounds like a good read.

reply

[–] LanceDance (1394) 3 years ago

I’d rather they give that a try instead of woke-washing pre-existing material. They can adapt Children of Blood and Bone or something and see how it goes. If it’s successful, then it proves there’s a market for original woke fantasy stories after all and it opens the door for other genres that are heavily woke. The far-left crowd can have their media, while everyone else can enjoy their woke-free media again.

If not, well, most things that have gotten woke went broke, and Hollywood refuses to admit it, they care more about The Message than making money.

reply

[–] unsanesarah (249) 3 years ago

The issue is one of internal logic. If you have deeply integrated groups of different races then within a few generations they will all become a fairly homogenous blend of the two, physically and culturally. So the issue becomes a choice of having races together but portraying conflict, having races together without conflict but with an explanation that the integration was very recent, or you have no integration. It's not about politics or representation or equity. It's just about making a reasonable attempt at internal logic within the framework of the setting.

reply

[–] papamihel (1616) 3 years ago

It's not impossible for propaganda art to be good.
I mean look at all the great religious art and music that has been created over the centuries. Of course something like Bach's chorales or masterpieces of the Renaissance masters are a tiny fraction of everything that artists dedicated to their God. Most of it is crap, uninspired, formulistic.

Same applies here. There is probably an extremely talented and devoutly woke scriptwriter out there. But so far only the talentless hacks get to bring their religion on screen.

reply

[–] alienzen (1931) 3 years ago

This has probably been done already, and you never heard about it because it bombed so badly. There gave already been a string of woke fantasy flops based on established books though, Shadow and Bone, The Wheel of Time, some other ones that I forgot because they were so forgettable,

reply