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Which Joker was more evil? This one or the one in Dark Knight?


Which of the two Jokers was more evil?

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The Dark Knight

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I agree on that. The Arthur Fleck Joker became what he became because he felt he was wronged by society whereas the Ledger Joker just wanted to make society a jungle. So the Dark Knight Joker was far worse in my opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

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Definitely TDK's Joker, we didn't see his vulnerable side unlike in Joker so the audience wasn't able to make that connection. Even if we had I'd still be banking on Heath's Joker as being the most evil based on his lack of empathy alone.

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What lack of empathy are you refering to?

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Well, Arthur Fleck was sympathetic towards those he felt had been wronged by others, we didn't really see that side to TDK's Joker, which was fine because that worked best for Nolan's rendition of the character.

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Improper comparison...

Flecks Joker wasn't evil.
He was insane.

Later (or earlier) Hamil's Joker was evil and insane, maybe.

I think they blend perfectly.
Youre trying to put a sane rationale on an insane person's mind.

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CARTOONS NEED NOT APPLY.

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This one

Ledger's Joker was a force of nature. Earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, and volcanoes kill masses of people, but they are not evil. They are simply powerful forces. What separates evil from non-evil is the ability to recognize the difference between right and wrong

Arthur Fleck, as the protagonist of the film, is shown to have a moral compass. He takes care of his sick mother. He comforts her and dotes on her. He conviviates with who he thinks is his little brother. He is capable of feeling empathy and kindness

So by the opposite token, his acts of violence and madness are a conscious rejection of his formerly moral behavior. He transgresses. He kills his co-worker, his mom, his idol. People who have played significant roles in his life

Plus Ledger's Joker gave the city authorities a fair warning to evacuate the hospitals before blowing them up. He behaved by some sort of internal moral code, even if he ranted against that sort of thing in his convo with Harvey Dent. Phoenix's Joker, on the other hand, took no responsibility for the riots and the mass chaos that he was causing. He simply danced like an autistic retard as the city around him was being burned to the ground.

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You described well why Arthur Fleck is also the realistic Joker. Ledger's Joker, just like Batman, was very archetypal, a force of nature as you said. He represented chaos opposite to Batman's order. That made him more but also less than human in some ways.

EDIT: I also disagree on the premise that it's the ability to differentiate between good and evil that determines how much someone's actions are evil. To losely quote Batman "It's not who I am, it's what I do that defines me". Because by your standard a psychopat will always be less evil than someone who feels empathy. Can psychopats even be evil then?
I mean, Ledger's Joker tried to blow up ships with hunderds of people in them just to make a point and killed a bunch of people who did him no wrong. Even betrayed his partners in a heist. On the other hand, devil's advocate would argue that every Arthur's victim deserved it to a degree. And blaming him for the chaos that errupted is as fair as blaming one serbian extremist with a gun for world war 1.

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The one in the Dark Knight.

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Ledger. And it's not close.

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Easily the Dark Knight. Heath Ledger's Joker was a criminal mastermind. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker is a man who life has beaten down relentlessly and has reached his breaking point.

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First of all, let me say up front that I know this is not supposed to be viewed as though it is the "same" character as TDK per se. I know that we are supposed to view this as a different reality than TDK etc.

And I did not enter this movie with the intent of viewing it as a "prequel" to TDK.

But having said that, one of the things which really appealed to me at the end of the movie was how WELL it worked as a prequel to TDK. (in a way). I really thought this character applied perfectly to Ledger's Joker.

To me, this was the perfect beginning to the same character. He still has vulnerability and humanity. He still has kindness deep in his heart. He is just now seeing the decay of society. But he likes it, and it goes well with the arrival of his insanity.

Then jump forward several years to TDK and he has become completely numb to humanity and any kind of hope towards society. He now just wants to contribute to the complete decay and anarchy.

So, my point of all of this is that I think it is inevitable to call Ledger's Joker more evil - but only because it is a proper evolution of the same character. It's not like it's a different "interpretation" of the same character. It's the same character who has continuously declined and completely lost any kind of mercy or humanity.

I think it even enhances TDK in a way, painting more of a picture of how/why Ledger's Joker would get to the point where he hated society so much and thrived upon anarchy.

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Uh, TDK Joker, easily. Pheonix's Joker can barely even be called "evil." Ledger's Joker was the very personification of Evil. It's not even really a debate who was worse.

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