In T1 Linda Hamilton was excellent, as was her character. Her character's dialog and reactions to the various situations were all perfectly believable.
In T2 Hamilton played a completely different character; a ridiculous one at that. However, it wasn't anywhere near as ridiculous as her T:DF character, and at least her acting was good.
I'm not one who's usually overly critical of acting, but Hamilton was terrible in T:DF. Maybe it was because her character was so ridiculous that no one could deliver such cringeworthy lines and actions and make them sound/look good. Her character acted like Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Jack Slater" character from "Last Action Hero," but that movie was a parody. Her character was even more ridiculous than Jack Slater though (which is hilarious, considering it wasn't supposed to be a parody), because she's not only a chick, but she's a little old lady. Did the writers/director draw inspiration from Estelle Getty's character from "Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot"?
T1 remains my favorite Terminator movie and I liked Linda in it but I loved her in Judgement Day. I thought she nailed what Sarah became in the years between T1 and T2. I take you like her "Damsel in Distress" character better than a crazy warrior?
Concerning DF - well after all of the leaks I knew what was in store for me when I went to see it the week after it was released, but I was hoping that Linda's return would make it worth my cost of admission, soft drink, and popcorn. While I enjoyed seeing her as Sarah again I thought the plot and writing of her character was so poor that I really didn't recognize her at all. I thought her acting was fine, but she didn't have much to work with.
Loved T1, thought Linda and Michael were both perfect for their roles, and perfect together. In T2, they turned Sarah's character into a cartoon, a lesbian fantasy.
I only liked the Mackenzie Davis in this movie.
The Colombian girl is an absolutely useless actress. The guy who played new the T was OK but his character was not menacing at all. And the oldsters made me feel sad.
Hmm. I thought she effectively characterized an older woman hardened by years of loss and terror. Cynical, angry, seasoned. As an older woman myself, I related to her and thought Hamilton's acting was spot on. No facial cosmetic surgery too- wonderful to see in a leading "lady".
How is it ridiculous her character changed in part 2? Yeah that's called character growth. She went through lots of trauma in the first film. That changes a person.
"Ha no. Who wouldn't change after something like that?"
No one would change into a completely different person after something like that, which is why she was still the same character at the end of T1.
"She was hardly fine."
She was absolutely still fine at the end of T1, i.e., she was still normal, the same character as she had been for the whole movie.
"Also she got locked up in part 2 and separated from her kid. That would also take it's toll on you."
So? Write it into the script that she got possessed by a demon, or that she suffered brain-damaging head trauma, and then her becoming a completely different character would have some justification.
People don't change after trauma? No she wasn't the same. She was depressed obviously at the end of T1 we saw the aftermath of that toll it took in the second one. You don't get out much do you?
We only saw her briefly at the end of the first film for a whole what 5 minutes after she killed the Terminator. Not really much time to showcase that trauma, which is why the second did just that.
She experienced psychological trauma. We're you asleep during the hospital scenes? She was locked up because no one believed her about the Terminator. That would have an effect on you.
They don't become completely different people, not without, e.g., brain damage.
"No she wasn't the same. She was depressed obviously at the end of T1 we saw the aftermath of that toll it took in the second one."
Is that a joke? She didn't show any signs of depression at the end of the movie. She was friendly/polite, and engaging to both the gas station attendant and the kid who took her picture. On top of that, even if she was depressed (she wasn't), depression is perfectly normal. A depressed character isn't a completely different character.
"You don't get out much do you?"
That's comically ironic coming from someone who's arguing something that's known to be false by anyone with even a modicum of life experience. I know / have known people who have been through similar trauma, i.e., war and incarceration, and their fundamental personality doesn't change because of it.
"We only saw her briefly at the end of the first film for a whole what 5 minutes after she killed the Terminator. Not really much time to showcase that trauma"
Utterly irrelevant. It only took one line (her first line in the movie) in T2 to see that it was a completely different character, which was only a few seconds.
"which is why the second did just that."
It did it incorrectly. Her character had already been established in T1, and we saw her before, during, and after trauma. Even in the midst of being chased by the Terminator, she joked around with Kyle at the motel. In T2 she was never even slightly reminiscent of her T1 character, not even for a single brief moment.
"She experienced psychological trauma."
Big deal. So have tons of real-world people, and they don't act like they've had a brain transplant because of it.
"We're you asleep during the hospital scenes?"
Your non sequitur is dismissed.
"She was locked up because no one believed her about the Terminator. That would have an effect on you."
"An effect" isn't even remotely the same thing as becoming a completely different character.
Some people do become vastyl different after trauma. I have had relatives change completely after a drug issue or even after being physically abused . Everyone reacts differently so yeah nope.
A depressed person is not the same as when they are not depressed. So some people hide depression very well.
Also not true I have a relative who is a war veteran and he changed drastically after the war.
Her character changed. Kind of like how Ripley changed after the first Alien. Experience does that to you.
You are in the minority in thinking that. Sarah Connor became a cinematic icon in the second film. Terminator 2 revolutionized special effects and is highly rated by critics and the mass majority of people. A character being established doesn't mean they can't change. Han Solo, Ripley, Darth Vader all go through changes throughout their stories. You just don't understand character arcs whatsoever.
So everyone reacts to trauma the same way then?
The effect changed you into a new character. Thanks for conceding.
"I have had relatives change completely after a drug issue or even after being physically abused ."
Yeah, right.
"Everyone reacts differently so yeah nope."
We already saw how Sarah Connor reacts to trauma in the first movie, and it was nothing like in T2. Since T1 came first, it trumps T2.
"A depressed person is not the same as when they are not depressed."
I never said otherwise, so consider your non sequitur dismissed. Also, since you didn't address the following...
"She didn't show any signs of depression at the end of the movie. She was friendly/polite, and engaging to both the gas station attendant and the kid who took her picture."
... your tacit concession on that point is noted.
"Also not true I have a relative who is a eat veteran and he changed drastically after the war."
Yeah, right.
"Her character changed."
Obviously, and that's the problem. There was no valid justification (such as brain damage or demonic possession) for her becoming a completely different character in T2.
"Kind of like how Ripley changed after the first Alien. Experience does that to you."
First, Ripley wasn't a completely different character, at least not in the sequel, and second, what happens in other movies is utterly irrelevant.
"You are in the minority in thinking that."
Your argumentum ad populum fallacy is dismissed.
"You just don't understand character arcs whatsoever."
Comical Irony Alert: Part III. The problem is that you don't understand the difference between valid and invalid character development. The former logically follows from the events in the story while the latter doesn't.
"So everyone reacts to trauma the same way then?"
Your non sequitur is dismissed.
"The effect changed you into a new character."
I'm not a character at all, and as such, this sentence of yours doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Consider it dismissed out of hand.
"Thanks for conceding."
Your laughable attempt to redefine the word "conceding" is dismissed.
We saw her shortly after the trauma. Trauma can occur later and overtime can be worse if not managed. The fact that people thought she made the whole thing up made the trauma worse. T1 did come first but T2 did not contradict it.
I asked if a depressed person can hide their depression? She did act fine but I myself think she was depressed given the fact she seemed so detached.
So brain damage has to occur for someone to change? Want to double down on that?
Ripley is absolutely different from the first. The trauma was showcased at the beginning of Aliens. Did you watch the film? I guess according to you Ripley changed because she was having nightmares after the events of Alien. Since she did not do this in the first one it violates her character from the first.
You are in the minority that is a fact. You denying this fact? Why should we put stock in your opinion over the majority? If you had made a compelling argument worth listening to that would be one thing, you did not.
Okay what character archetype is Sarah Connor? Lets see if you have any idea what you are talking about.
Everyone reacts the same way? Answer the question do not side step it.
We saw her before, during, and after (close to 9 months after, considering how pregnant she was) the trauma, and Hamilton was clearly playing the same character the whole time. At the end of the movie she's pleasant/polite, and even smiles at the kid while making a joking comment to him ("Pretty good hustle, kid"). She also joked around with Kyle in the motel room, which was right in the midst of the trauma. When did she made a joking comment or even smile in T2?
"Trauma can occur later and overtime can be worse if not managed. The fact that people thought she made the whole thing up made the trauma worse."
The trauma doesn't justify T2 Sarah being a completely different character than T1 Sarah. It was a change that James Cameron made because he wanted to, not because it was legitimately organic to the story.
"She did act fine"
That's what I said in the first place, so your concession on that point is noted.
"but I myself think she was depressed given the fact she seemed so detached."
Now you're contradicting yourself, i.e., if she "seemed so detached" then she wasn't acting fine, but you just agreed that she was acting fine.
"So brain damage has to occur for someone to change? Want to double down on that?"
To completely change, yes. You keep ignoring the word "completely." People's personalities can change even without trauma, just from the passage of time, but they don't completely change. There's nothing about T2 Sarah Connor that's even remotely similar to T1 Sarah Connor.
"Ripley is absolutely different from the first. The trauma was showcased at the beginning of Aliens. Did you watch the film? I guess according to you Ripley changed because she was having nightmares after the events of Alien. Since she did not do this in the first one it violates her character from the first."
Again, what happens in movies that aren't part of The Terminator series is utterly irrelevant, and also, learn the meaning of the word "completely."
"You are in the minority that is a fact."
First, it hasn't been established as a fact, and second, even if it were a fact (it isn't), it doesn't matter because it's an argumentum ad populum fallacy, as I already told you, and can therefore be dismissed out of hand.
"Okay what character archetype is Sarah Connor? Lets see if you have any idea what you are talking about. Everyone reacts the same way? Answer the question do not side step it. It is your right to be wrong don't worry."
and the hardest thing is deciding what I should tell you and what not to. Well, anyway, I've got a while yet before you're old enough to understand the tapes. They're more for me at this point... to help get it all straight. Should I tell you about your father? Boy, that's a tough one. Will it change your decision to send him here...knowing that he is your father? But if you don't send Kyle, you could never be. God, a person can go crazy thinking about this...I suppose I will tell you...I owe him that. And maybe it'll be enough if you know that in the few hours we had together, we loved a lifetime's worth...
That sounds rather sad to me... Sounds to me like someone who is trying their best to be positive in preparation for what is about to come. Second she still had her kid. It was not until second one where her kid gets taken away. That is another form of trauma. We only see the effects of this trauma in the second film. Losing the man you love, losing your kid, and being locked up in a mental institution would cause trauma.
I said she acted fine, I did not say she was fine. Too ignorant to know the difference? Sad people can act okay while on the inside they are depressed. Your stupidity on this point is noted.
Someone can completely change without brain damage. Your stupidity is noted.
Translation my point on Alien debunks your point and you have no retort. You lost this point.
Yes it has been established. Terminator two is higher received than the first one by the overwhelming majority. You are in the minority in thinking the first is better and not liking Sarah's character arc. Do not take my word for it look up the data.
Your defeat is accepted. It is your right to be wrong.
"That sounds rather sad to me... Sounds to me like someone who is trying their best to be positive in preparation for what is about to come."
She's fine, and even if that's true, it's irrelevant. A character being "sad" doesn't mean they're a completely different character. We saw a range of emotions from her in T1, and they were all believable.
"Second she still had her kid. It was not until second one where her kid gets taken away. That is another form of trauma. We only see the effects of this trauma in the second film. Losing the man you love, losing your kid, and being locked up in a mental institution would cause trauma."
We see the bullshit effects in T2, not believable effects; not believable unless you're an idiot, that is.
"I said she acted fine, I did not say she was fine."
I didn't say that you said "she was fine," dumbass. I said:
"Now you're contradicting yourself, i.e., if she "seemed so detached" then she wasn't acting fine, but you just agreed that she was acting fine."
She can't "seem so detached" if she's acting fine, because the only way someone can seem detached is if they are acting detached. The only way we can have any idea of what's going on in someone's head is through their actions, i.e., how they are acting.
"Too ignorant to know the difference?"
That's comically ironic coming from someone who just publicly declared both ignorance and stupidity.
"Sad people can act okay while on the inside they are depressed."
And there's no way to know that "on the inside they are depressed" unless they tell you. If you can tell they are depressed on the inside from how they are acting then that inherently means they are not acting okay, obviously.
"Your stupidity on this point is noted."
Comical Irony Alert: Part II
"Someone can completely change without brain damage."
False. Fundamental personality characteristics are hard-wired. Someone can feign being completely different of course.
"Your stupidity is noted."
Comical Irony Alert: Part III
"Translation my point on Alien debunks your point and you have no retort. You lost this point."
Your "point" on Alien, even if it were factual (it isn't), couldn't possibly debunk my point, dipshit, because my point is that a person in Sarah's circumstances wouldn't completely change in reality, which is why it's unbelievable. My point is not that a character can't completely change in other movies, which is why your "point" is utterly irrelevant, i.e., a non sequitur. This is yet another confirmation of your idiocy by the way, because idiots are the sole source of non sequiturs of this type.
"Yes it has been established."
No, it hasn't, numbnuts.
"Terminator two is higher received than the first one by the overwhelming majority."
T2 "is higher received than the first one" only by idiots (typically idiots who are younger than Edward Furlong), and most people are idiots. But regardless of that, your assertion is yet another non sequitur, i.e., even if your assertion is true, it doesn't establish that most people find her becoming a completely different character believable. And even if you did establish that, it wouldn't help your argument, because like I already told your dumbass, it an argumentum ad populum fallacy (look it up, since you obviously don't know what that means).
"You are in the minority in thinking the first is better and not liking Sarah's character arc. Do not take my word for it look up the data."
See above, dullard, and also, it isn't a character arc. It's a character that becomes a completely different character without valid justification.
"Your defeat is accepted. It is your right to be wrong."
Your non sequitur is dismissed, Slow Doug, and also:
Character development occurs in stories. The character becoming a different type of character is showcased in what they go through. Walter White is not the same character when you compare where he began and where he ended up. A person is going to change if they go through the things she did. It is called character development. I did not say she was a different character I said she was sad. In Terminator 2 we see the effects this trauma had on her. We only barely saw her for a few moments after Kyle died and she killed the Terminator.
We see the bullshit effects in T2, not believable effects; not believable unless you're an idiot, that is.
So no one is allowed to disagree with your view interesting. Funny well I am going to play your game then. Anyone who thinks the effects were not believable is stupid. Two can play your game.
"Now you're contradicting yourself, i.e., if she "seemed so detached" then she wasn't acting fine, but you just agreed that she was acting fine."
I proved my point with her ending monologue. It sounded sad but hopeful she will be prepared for what is to come. So no I did not contradict myself. She acted fine up until that point.
Even when people are acting fine there are signs of depression. Some people hide it better than others do.
False. Fundamental personality characteristics are hard-wired. Someone can feign being completely different of course.
Absolutely false. Trauma can alter a person's personality. Brain damage is not the only thing to alter someone.
T2 "is higher received than the first one" only by idiots (typically idiots who are younger than Edward Furlong), and most people are idiots. But regardless of that, your assertion is yet another non sequitur, i.e., even if your assertion is true, it doesn't establish that most people find her becoming a completely different character believable. And even if you did establish that, it wouldn't help your argument, because like I already told your dumbass, it an argumentum ad populum fallacy (look it up, since you obviously don't know what that means).
First lets go over your empty statement. You have any way of proving that the only people who ranked T2 over T1 are people younger that Edward Furlong or are idiots? If so please provide this proof of your stupid claim. It is just a generalization you made up because you are too stupid to think gee maybe someone could just disagree with me. Nope they have to fit a certain demographic. I never said T2 was good because the majority said so I said you are in the minority in thinking it is inferior to the first. I have data to back this up. You attempted to deflect from facts while I did not. Go ahead and provide that data for your claim I will wait. I put more stock in the majority than you.
Nope it is a character arc. You just are obviously too ignorant to understand writing/film making.
People like you need to be slapped honestly.
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It's not character development, dumbass. It's a completely different character without valid justification. Character development is organic to the story. Arbitrarily changing a character to a completely different character isn't character development, it's an instance of a character being out of character.
The rest of your asinine two-part post consists of more non sequiturs, more already-refuted points, and a few more Comical Irony Alerts. Consider it dismissed wholesale.
He's an idiot he will have a lame excuse for that. He thinks because he likes T1 better it automatically makes him smarter and more intellectual. Funny thing is I have friends who prefer the first Terminator to the second, thing is they give actual thought out reasons as opposed to this fool here.
I myself adore both. Terminator has a more horror smaller budget feel less commercialized. Terminator 2 while commercialized still maintains it's artistic integrity in my book. Flashier because of a bigger budget but still maintains it's heart and soul. To me it's like Alien and Aliens.
No excuses are needed when replying to non sequiturs, dipshit.
"He thinks because he likes T1 better it automatically makes him smarter and more intellectual."
LOL at your laughable attempt at a crystal ball reading, Miss Cleo.
"Funny thing is I have friends who prefer the first Terminator to the second, thing is they give actual thought out reasons as opposed to this fool here."
Hey you were right!
if "blindly dismissing unisputable facts that are staring you in the face" even qualifies as a lame excuse.
I dont think it does , its more the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH"
Yeah he fits that mold where he thinks he is more edgy because he prefers the first. I honestly can see why someone would prefer the first, I just think his reasons are dumb. A character changes when going through the events Sarah did. Who would be the same after all that?
You said you were putting me on ignore, dipshit. LOL at you backpedaling. In any case, your non sequitur is dismissed, and since you have no arguments, your tacit concession is noted.
"if "blindly dismissing unisputable facts that are staring you in the face""
Posting facts (such as that she was wearing a headband and driving a Jeep, lol) that are utterly irrelevant = a non sequitur and can therefore legitimately be dismissed out of hand, obviously.
"I dont think it does , its more the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH""
You said you were putting me on ignore, dipshit. LOL at you backpedaling. In any case, your non sequitur is dismissed, and since you have no arguments, your tacit concession is noted.
Those things clearly show her character has already changed with what she's been through.
However i've just looked at the full horrific scale of the discourse between you and moviefan , and I suspect nothing will change your mind.
You seem to think there is no circumstance on earth where a woman would "get tough and learn to shoot guns"
I think , in the real world in a lot of cases just being the victim of a mugging would do that .
In Sarah's case she has
- been hunted by an indestructable killer cyborg
- seen it kill countless cops
- learned that there is a war coming in which the world is destroyed
- learned that she new mother of the human race
- been persecuted for her paraoid delusions
- had her child (also vital for the survival of humans) taken into care
Thats gonna change a person
Not to mention thoughout the whole course of T1 her character is growing and getting tougher
...or did you think she'd just go back to waitressing?
"Those things clearly show her character has already changed with what she's been through."
They show no such thing. As I already said, none of those things have anything to do with personality traits.
"You seem to think there is no circumstance on earth where a woman would "get tough and learn to shoot guns""
It's her personality that completely changed, numbnuts. Learning to shoot guns has nothing to do with someone's personality. She was friendly/polite, smiling, and made a joking comment to the kid at the end of T1 (and it can be assumed that she already knew how to shoot a gun by that time, since she owned one and was carrying it with her). Name one time in T2 that she even smiled.
Skipping over your non sequiturs...
"...or did you think she'd just go back to waitressing?"
This sums up your idiocy. What someone is doing, such as waitressing or driving a Jeep, has fuckall to do with their personality traits, and is therefore utterly irrelevant to this thread.
Strange, a lot of viewers and critics are saying she was the best part of the movie. They could've deepened her dialogue more, I guess. Towards the end she did turn into a simple foul-mouthed one-liner machine. But if you took her out, this mediocre film would've been even worse.
Linda was actually the only part of the movie I actually liked.
Mackenzie was awful. Diego Luna was a terrible choice and not the slightest bit intimidating.
Sadly Arnold just looked too old, and is no longer a physically imposing dude. Or maybe I should say Arnold is not doing at his age whatever Stallone is doing at his age.
I tried. I gave it a chance. But this movie was atrocious.