I still can't decide, probably because I don't have a strong desire to pick a side. I figured Spidey would be the swing vote, but it seemed like Team Ironman was on the wrong. But even at the end, one would think you'd switch over from the team dishonest and sympathize with TS. But still I'm torn!
shareTeam Rogers
shareBut even at the end, one would think you'd switch over from the team dishonest and sympathize with TS.I assume "team dishonest" would be Stark, who first forced a piece of legislation on everyone to assuage his own guilt, then sneakily imprisoned one of his own team, volunteered to hunt down and imprison other members of his team, landed quite a few of them in jail in the name of the law he pushed for, and then broke this same law as soon as it became inconvenient?
Hmm, that's a good point. I didn't think of it that way.
Tony Stark.
1) Stark didn't force anything on anyone. Ross brought up the Accords, Tony made his argument, the people who wanted to sign signed and the ones that didn't want to didn't.
2) Wanda just blew up a building, and like Tony says she's an unregistered immigrant. On top of that if we're meant to assume she's 18 or something then she's a minor. Keeping her out of the public eye in a gilded cage for her own good is hardly a crime, or "sneaky".
3) Tony volunteers to bring Sam Steve and Bucky in because the alternative is that job going to government goons who would bring them in dead or alive. He pleads with Ross to let him do it because he thinks he can get Steve to cooperate.
4) With 3 being the case, Tony never planned for his friend to be imprisoned. At worst they'd be momentarily detained like what happened after the tunnel chase.
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
Stark didn't force anything on anyone. Ross brought up the Accords, Tony made his argument, the people who wanted to sign signed and the ones that didn't want to didn't.Stark worked on the Accords with Ross and promoted them aggressively, resorting even to manipulation, promising Cap castles in the air for signing. And people were given a simple choice of signing or going the hell away. How that is not forcing it on them, I don't know. It's basically "go with the new rule or get fired" choice.
Wanda just blew up a building, and like Tony says she's an unregistered immigrant. On top of that if we're meant to assume she's 18 or something then she's a minor. Keeping her out of the public eye in a gilded cage for her own good is hardly a crime, or "sneaky".Locking her up without her knowledge and consent is sneaky and a crime (technically, abduction), no matter how gilded the cage. It's still a cage. Had he bothered to tell her - not even ask her, but tell her "listen, there are issues, you should lay low for a while" the situation would be entirely different and he'd be, yes, a concerned guardian. As it is, he's just a jailor.
Tony volunteers to bring Sam Steve and Bucky in because the alternative is that job going to government goons who would bring them in dead or alive.Captain America and Winter Soldier? Plenty of good luck. Leaving aside the principle that when you have to choose between a friend and an institution, your place is by your friend, Steve and Buck went through that German team in Bucharest as knife through butter, and they were both holding back massively. But with Tony's involvement, they have to fight enhanced folks instead of regular. Also, offering to hunt down a friend is just heinous.
He pleads with Ross to let him do it because he thinks he can get Steve to cooperate.So, is he completely unfamiliar with Steve Rogers or just plain stupid? After leaning that Hydra infiltrated all the government, after the massive, massive clusterfück in Berlin, where the authorities (whatever they are now, UN? Dept of Defense?) have proven themselves completely unable to provide even most basic security and completely unwilling to provide the most basic human rights, he expects Steve to just run into their arms?
With 3 being the case, Tony never planned for his friend to be imprisoned.So, we're back to "plain stupid"?
At worst they'd be momentarily detained like what happened after the tunnel chase.And in the meantime, the terrorist who bombed the UN would have gotten his hands on five super-trained Winter Soldiers and disappear in the wind with them. Just imagine the scale of potential destruction and destabilization.
That seems like a very black and white way to look at a very nuanced sitatution. But what do I know?
I'm not gonna write a full response cause I need to sleep, but needless to say I find the whole "never compromise, everything is a binary choice" rhetoric a pretty unhealthy way to look at things. The people who operate in life with that philosophy aren't the type I'd trust to ever preemptively regulate themselves.
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
I find the whole "never compromise, everything is a binary choice" rhetoric a pretty unhealthy way to look at things.A totalitarian regime is a pretty unhealthy environment to live in.
The people who operate in life with that philosophy aren't the type I'd trust to ever preemptively regulate themselves."Trust"...? In a totalitarian rule? Trust is not a factor, baby. You have no need to trust your citizens (I love how you automatically declared yourself on system side, BTW), because you have a boot on their throats. If they do, say or think something you don't like, they'll get vanished into a prison or prison camp.
Don't be such a drama llama dude.
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
Yeah, I know it's difficult to really understand or imagine. No probs.
I'm too old for this sh*t...
It's neither of those things. It's just difficult to accept a worldview that utterly cynical and hopeless.
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
It's not a "worldview", it was our reality for fifty years. Thank God I only caught the tail end of it, but it was still pretty bad. Seriously, read something about life in Eastern Block, it'll expand your horizons and maybe make you a tad less of a judgmental prick.
I'm too old for this sh*t...
Who or what exactly did I judge?
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
Um, me? Seriously, go read something, I'm all talked out on this.
I'm too old for this sh*t...
Okie dokie, Loki.
I Don't Hate Suicide Squad
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raE69LKD9pA
Bluehex,
I completely understand where you are coming from. I lived under a fascist state for the first eight years of my life. I lived with my grandparents, who were just as devout fascists as they were Catholics(specially my grandmother). People who live in democratic societies have a hard time understanding the totalitarian system. They throw words like fascist and communist about without a clue about their true meaning.
Yeah, I know. I've worked with journalists coming here. When they found out that neighbors spy on underground opposition members, they would ask, for example, why they don't report those neighbors to the police...
They saw long, winding line to a food store (meat) and asked why all those people insist on buying their meat in this store, couldn't they go to a less crowded one. Some things just have to be experienced, I guess.
And I guess you know the dilemma of self-limitation versus government imposed limitation. When Tony said "I'm doing this to prevent something worse being done to us" it was like a deja vu.
I'm too old for this sh*t...
You said exactly as I would. Thank you. 😂😂
shareTeam Cap. I agreed with all his decisions and understood why he made them.
Stark was an emotional mess from the very beginning and he just seemed more weighed down as the movie went on. I understood why he snapped at the end. I would have been surprised if he hadn't.
Team Cap.
I was flip-flopping the whole movie until we learn that it was Bucky who killed Stark's parents. And if you complain about spoiling it's your own fault by now. Anyway I can definitely understand Team Cap but I saw him as more as choosing Bucky over anyone again and again. I understand friendship but they literally saw Bucky kill Tony's parents and it didn't make Steve even a little like "What the hell?" So ultimately I'm Team Iron Man because Cap just pissed me off in this movie.
shareDuring the discussion among the Avengers concerning the Accords at the beginning of the movie, Cap states "If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if the panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us?"
You realize he's not just talking about the Avengers under the Accords, right? He's also talking about Bucky. All of Bucky's "crimes" were committed in his role as an agent carrying out the orders of a "higher authority". He did not act of his own volition. He didn't even choose to participate in the Winter Soldier program.
Team Stark have all chosen to be someone else's willing puppets. They have chosen to let others call all the shots so they can escape all the blame. Bucky, by virtue of the mind control he's been subjected to, cannot be held morally responsible for his actions as the Winter Soldier. Team Stark, by freely choosing to become the next generation of Winter Soldiers, cannot escape moral responsibility for their actions.
If Cap trying to save his friend, who has been systematically screwed over by both Hydra/Soviet Union and, in this very movie, repeatedly condemned by Ross and the UN to immediate execution sans trial is a dealbreaker for you just because you found out Bucky was forced to murder the Starks I'm not sure what to tell you. But then opting to go all in for Team Future Winter Soldiers seems an odd choice.
"I'm pissed at Cap for saving Bucky, so I'm gonna support the guys who all want to be just like Bucky?"
"I'm pissed at Cap for saving Bucky, so I'm gonna support the guys who all want to be just like Bucky?"
I'm with Cap... "til the end of the line".
shareAm I the only team Ironman here ?
the way i see it, signing the sokovian accord is just to please the public
just like what Vision said on the airport "for collective good, you must surrender"
The problem Capt have with the accord is that the moment they sign it they will loose their freedom to act on crisis time, making avenger nothing more than a weapon and people with agenda who can use it.
And then we see what Stark did on the final act, he ignoring the accord and go to help Capt and Bucky, proving that the accord is just tool to made people feel save
In my eyes Capt is never wrong about the accord, it could be used for wrong things
but for Stark ,the accord is only used to calm public opinion and avenger still can do anything
Give me the accord! I'll sign it to make people happy
So....Yeah....Um....Pineapple!
Cap only cares about Bucky, Scarlett Witch is a spoiled whiny brat who hurts people, Antman is a pervert and Falcon is just too loyal.
shareOut of curiosity, why is Antman a pervert...?
I'm too old for this sh*t...
Out of curiosity, why is Antman a pervert...?
It seemed like the sides were decided by previous and current alliances, rather than most of them taking a real stance on the issue. The one exception was BW. Tony had his stance and Cap had his, then everyone else pretty much fell in line. That was one of the biggest problems with the movie.
I was being patient but it took too long.