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I wonder what people understand, who do not know about christianity?


I watched this film yesterday and I liked it a lot.

It was a slow-paced film with a good message for me. I liked, that the gospel was not transported with a "wooden hammer", as we say in germany. But rather subtle and with a great focus on kindness and love.

That's where my question comes into play:
Will people, that do not know about the christina faith understand, what it is all about? Like, why Christ was crucified and raised from the death? What was his core message? Or why people believe in him and follow him?

What do you think? I am really curious to get some non-biased answers!

Hepe

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Read Bart Erhman's book to learn how bogus christianity is.

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Read Bart Erhman's books to learn how bogus christianity is.

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Core Christianity is not bogus. Some of mainstream Christianity's claims are incorrect, such as the claims that "Jesus is God"/Trinitarianism or "Jesus was the Messiah".

But as a path of spiritual transformation, Christianity is as authentic as any other spiritual system such as Buddhism or Taoism.

Christianity's core claim is to a relationship with God (or the Holy or the Spirit or the Absolute) mediated through the example of one human being, Jesus of Nazareth.

If Jesus was historical, it is clear that the Gospels and even Paul provide converging lines of evidence regarding who he was and what he taught, which basically was a "Path" away from ego ("ego" defined as "the anxious, grasping self" and toward a new, transformed life centered in Spirit rather than in culture or "the world". The path consists of a daily dying to self (Luke's Gospel) accompanied by a rising or resurrection into a new life lived in the Spirit. Paul's view of baptism confirms the Gospel meaning of the path to new life. Paul's baptism is participatory, even sacramental, a ritual of water immersion in which the acolyte "dies and rises with Christ".

In its essence of spirituality being a transformative path to union with the Holy, Christianity bears strong parallels to most other religions and mystical systems. Its Path of dying-and-rising in this life, here-and-now, is a hallmark of religions in general, and is not dependent on "belief in" or "belief about" doctrinal or intellectual affirmations. As such, it is as far from being bogus as Hitler was from being a regular guy.

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You posted twice, so I am replying twice.

:)

Core Christianity is not bogus. Some of mainstream Christianity's dogmatic claims are incorrect, such as the claims that "Jesus is God"/Trinitarianism or "Jesus was the Messiah", or that the Bible is inerrant.

But as a path of spiritual transformation, Christianity is as authentic as any other spiritual system such as Buddhism or Taoism.

Christianity's core claim is to a relationship with God (or the Holy or the Spirit or the Absolute) mediated through the example of one human being, Jesus of Nazareth.

If Jesus was historical, it is clear that the Gospels and even Paul provide converging lines of evidence regarding who he was and what he taught, which basically was a "Path" away from ego ("ego" defined as "the anxious, grasping self" and toward a new, transformed life centered in Spirit rather than in culture or "the world". The path consists of a daily dying to self (Luke's Gospel) accompanied by a rising or resurrection into a new life lived in the Spirit. Paul's view of baptism confirms the Gospel meaning of the path to new life. Paul's baptism is participatory, even sacramental, a ritual of water immersion in which the acolyte "dies and rises with Christ".

In its essence of spirituality being a transformative path to union with the Holy, Christianity bears strong parallels to most other religions and mystical systems. Its Path of dying-and-rising in this life, here-and-now, is a hallmark of religions in general, and is not dependent on "belief in" or "belief about" doctrinal or intellectual affirmations. As such, it is as far from being bogus as Hitler was from being a regular guy.

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My second post corrected a typo.

Your description of Christianity is not Christianity, but you call it that anyway. And comparing it with other supernatural (spiritual) beliefs only puts it in a larger bogus box.

What you refer to as spiritual, when in extremis, only leaves you in a state in which other people are required to be your caretaker. Such "spirituality" flies in the face of human nature. Humans are a dynamic species evolved to interact with the material world, the environment, for the purpose of improving the quality of our existence. Intellectual, and "spiritual" preoccupation, depends on such progress.

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Your description of Christianity is not Christianity

As I described, it's Christianity at its core, i.e., a path of spiritual transformation. The NT is replete with writing about "the new man" who arises consequent to entering God's Kingdom here-and-now.

What you refer to as spiritual, when in extremis, only leaves you in a state in which other people are required to be your caretaker.

First, I was not speaking about anything in an "in extremis" condition or function. I was speaking of day-to-day dying to ego and cultural imperatives, and rising into a new life in Spirit, i.e., the NT "Way". Second, the "in extremis" situation you mention does not leave practitioners "in a helpless state". Rather, that helpless state is typically temporary, leading outward into altruistic service of fellow human beings, as was the case for many mystics such as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, Ramana Maharshi and countless others. And it is clear from the literature that, post-Enlightenment, the great sages were even more vividly alive and active, and their lives and speech more vital, than before they crossed the great divide between the unregenerate life and into the new life centered in the transcendent spiritual.

Such "spirituality" flies in the face of human nature

Rather, it completes human nature on the typical religious premise that we are spiritual beings undergoing a physical/biological experience. Spirituality leads away from the mere physis of apehood and into states exemplified by divine union, non-attachment, agape-love, Nirvana and Bodhi. So - we're apes; but thanks to spirituality and its sacred technologies, now we know that we are apes for whom Enlightenment is part of our potential.

Humans are a dynamic species evolved to interact with the material world, the environment, for the purpose of improving the quality of our existence

I could almost agree, except that I do not believe that evolution is purposeful. Chances are that's not what you meant, but I doubt that we evolved, or were evolved, for any recognizable human or humanistic reason. But yes, now that we find ourselves as we are here-and-now, we can work for improving our "quality of life". Spirituality agrees with this principle and says that quality of life is not solely material, for the simple reason that life in its broadest sense - and the human psyche in its deepest sense - is not solely material. Spirituality addresses the spirit as spirit, the individual as an individual, the subjective psychic/mental realm as such. It addresses that which the mourning Sarek related to James T. Kirk about Spock entrusting "his katra - his living spirit - everything that is not of the body"...

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The fact that there are more than 30,000 brands of Christianity means that there is no core. It's only a Rorschach test, of sorts. My comment "not Christianity" referred to the traditional, the historical. The NT has Jesus and his delusions wrongly claiming that God would soon appear to form an earthly kingdom.

I should have said "logical extension" rather than "in extremis."

Spirituality, being at least in part a claim of the supernatural, is only a co-option of the wonderment humans have always experienced at the mere fact of being live in an astounding universe. There's nothing supernatural about that. It's human nature.

True, human evolution is not in itself purposeful. But we humans evolved as beings who apply a sense of purpose to our existence. That is: This "sense of purpose" is itself an adaption. It is akin to fact that we evolved to adapt. We have adapted to adapt: Clothes instead of fur etc. Ideas instead of instincts etc.

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The fact that there are more than 30,000 brands of Christianity means that there is no core

That's like saying that because there are a group of planets in our solar system, there is no central sun. The "brands" of Christianity you mention circle the core like the planets circle the sun. The "core" is what I previously described, distilled from Jesus' teaching in the NT about traveling a path from ego-and-culture centeredness to a new, transformed life centered in the Spirit. You never addressed the core because you decided to concentrate on the periphery.

The NT has Jesus and his delusions wrongly claiming that God would soon appear to form an earthly kingdom

That is only one strand of NT tradition and it contradicts other strands wherein Jesus and his disciples assume a long period before "the End". It is likely that "Jesus'" claims about the "soon" returning Son of Man at the End issued not from Jesus, but from certain apocalyptic Christian communities' reaction to the Resurrection.

Jewish eschatology held that at the End, God would raise the righteous dead. Until Jesus' Resurrection, this had not yet happened. But with Jesus' Resurrection, certain believers began to proclaim that the End period had already started - as Paul said, Jesus represents the "first fruits" of a general resurrection that would mark the advent of the End times. It was only a small step from that notion to retroactively placing on Jesus' lips the (false) claim that he, as the Son of Man, would be returning "soon". Since the End times had already begun with Jesus' resurrection, well, then - or so they thought - he must be returning soon to end the current evil age and inaugurate a new Eden on earth. A good case for a non-apocalyptic Jesus can be found in:

https://www.amazon.com/Apocalyptic-Jesus-Robert-J-Miller/dp/0944344895/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466711996&sr=1-1&keywords=apocalyptic+jesus+a+debate

and in M.J. Borg's essay, A Temperate Case for a Non-Apocalyptic Jesus, in:

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Contemporary-Scholarship-Marcus-Borg/dp/1563380943/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466712154&sr=1-1&keywords=marcus+borg+jesus+in+contemporary+scholarship

Spirituality, being at least in part a claim of the supernatural, is only a co-option of the wonderment humans have always experienced at the mere fact of being live in an astounding universe

Not at all. Spirituality is not some kind of bungled nature-worship projected onto a human-like cosmic "Potter". On the contrary, as the following citation shows, mystical experience is not sensory experience at all; it does not depend on or allude to or imply matter and its processes; and its Object is nonmaterial and "ineffable":

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He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you ... always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.
"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light...”

- The Apocryphon of John -


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The mystical experience of the Transcendent is in no way related to universe-admiring claims of Greek cosmos piety which fall from the lips of many scientists and naturalists such as N. dG. Tyson and Carl Sagan ("We are star-stuff which has become conscious of itself and taken its destiny into its own hands"). Mysticism in no way "co-opts" materialist - or even certain types of Pagan - cosmos piety. It is "pneumatic" (of the Spirit), and it stands on its own terms without reference to physis and physis-worship.

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I recommend that you avoid analogies. Analogies almost always suffer from the logical fallacy of false equivalence. Christianity is not like the Universe. The Universe has a fixed physical reality. Some of that reality is known, some of it is open to speculation that has the potential to no longer be speculation. If there is a core to Christianity, that core is only composed of physical facts: such as: a guy was brutally murdered. Scripture's claim of the supernatural has never been anything other than baseless.

Your mention of different "strands" is important because it renders scripture as unreliable: many different authors. That's one reason why scripture has fostered so many different denominations (brands): A guy is brutally murdered and people give different versions and attribute different meanings. Another reason is that people will read or analyze the very same sentence differently. There are language translation problems too.

Your comment about spirituality is circular reasoning. You are required to make your case for spirituality (supernaturality) outside the confines of scripture.

Sagan nailed it. (If you'll pardon the expression.)

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I recommend that you avoid analogies.
Sagan nailed it

And I recommend that you hand out this recommendation to matter-loving scientists and Saganites first. Typically - predictably and non-scientifically but poetically/analogically - they compare/contrast physical objects and systems with completely other things, as in their rather pathetic "billions of years ago, some star gave its life so that you could live on Planet Earth". Of course, no star has a life to give, nor does it have the capacity for altruistic self-immolation, nor does it have an imagination that would permit it to be compassionately concerned for the existence and welfare of future earth-beings. Another example is when in Cosmos, Sagan favorably compared Hindu religion's "butter-churning" theory of cosmic origins to the modern scientific view, i.e., "the Hindu model, although prescientific, is nevertheless "LIKE" the modern cosmological picture". These figures of speech, and so many others like it, are pure analogy.

Like N.dG. Tyson, Sagan never came close to getting anything right about religion (or the ufo phenomenon, for that matter). On those subjects, he did his science by proclamation - that is, he didn't do science. And he was clueless and uncritical enough to pose himself in front of gorgeous stellar photographs or lush, spreading tree branches and proudly proclaim that, "Like them, I am star-stuff!" But he never posed himself in front of steaming puddles of bloody cancerous diarrhea or victims of flesh-eating bacteria, which are also star-stuff. He salad-barred his cosmos piety in a kind of crude reversal of Genesis's Creator-piety, which also tends to praise all things bright and beautiful, while ignoring the rest.

If there is a core to Christianity, that core is only composed of physical facts

That's just scientism/reductionism. I have already, two or three times now, described Christianity's core as a path into a new life centered in Spirit, a claim you could not or will not bother to refute.

You claim that Christianity's only "real" core is a physical event - Jesus' execution, but that too is a more-than-physical category, for the simple reason that - like his Resurrection - it was experienced in the subjective personhood of the witnesses, which involves private, personal interpretations and subjective evaluations - and of course, memory.

But if you want a physical referent for this, it might equally be said that the experience and the memory of Jesus' death-Resurrection were historical facts as well as neurological facts, because they were stored and interpreted in-and-by the brains of the historical early Christians. Whether or not God actually raised Jesus up, people believed that this had happened, and the correlates of that belief could be tracked in their brain readings - i.e., had fMRI been available back then, surely the physical correlates of the experiencers would reflect the experience and the memory of it.
And of course the only physical proof of all of this would be to discover (good luck) a piece of "the true Cross" or something that Jesus wrote containing his DNA - or to somehow discover and utilize some kind of time-travel technology.

You seem to be claiming that only physical objects, events and processes are true or truthful - ours is possibly the first era to so uncritically confuse fact with truth. And of course, most of us, based on daily subjective feeling and mentation, think that is not the case.

For example, we don't need quantified material data mediated by the senses to realize that we love-and-seek the True, the Good, the Beautiful, we don't need a brain scan to tell us when we're having a migraine, we don't need fMRI to tell us that we know and love-or-dislike a person, an animal, a political group, a sports team, just as we don't require physical objects to understand and manipulate Number and numbers.

Moreover, even the most "objective" scientific experiment or hypothesis originates in the subjective personhood of the experimenter or theoretician, whether as a new way to make money, to satisfy curiosity, to add to the bulk of human knowledge, etc. Science, like religion, exists primarily in the subjective human psyche - neither of them exist in in the external realm of nature.

"Looking outside" through a telescope and confirming that Jupiter has moons - although the instrumentation differs - is as much a subjective experience as "looking within" and finding anything from contentment, lust, anger and insecurity, to one's own Buddha-Nature. The human psyche is the sine qua non of all experience, whether material, social, political, or spiritual.

A poster once opined that in a certain experiment, religious people's brains were scanned while they were having a mystical experience, and that therefore we can now, and at last, see and know what a mystical experience looks like. That's materialism at its crudest. Of course, we are not seeing the mystical experience, but only its neural correlates. The only person seeing the experience is the one having the experience, which is not itself merely a special type of chemical-electrical activity occurring in a four-pound skull organ - which in any case, remains a four-pound skull organ, not a subjective self experiencing God or what have you.

Your comment about spirituality is circular reasoning. You are required to make your case for spirituality (supernaturality) outside the confines of scripture

Oh, but I already did, in my previous post, via the citation from the Apocryphon of John, which you apparently saw fit to ignore, and which challenged your claim that religion is only a co-option of scientific cosmos piety.

In any case, scripture does support my stark, simple claim about transcendent categories and experiences. And so do most other religions and expressions of spirituality; even non-theistic religions insist on the reality of a divine Transcendent which is not always or necessarily a personal Creator-Sky Father, but something like the Tao, the Dharmakaya, the Divine Self, the Atman-Brahman, Buddha-Nature, the Ground of Being, the Sacred, Wakan Tonka, the Absolute, the Holy, the Wholly Other, the Ein Sof, the Pleroma, the Abyss, the Profundity, the Silence, etc.

Even fundamental Theravada Buddhism has its own functional equivalent of deity. As Jesus said things like, "Who sees me sees the Father", so also the Buddha said things like, "Who sees me sees the Dharma", and the following citation supports this:

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… Two meanings [of the word “God”] must be distinguished for its place in Buddhism to be understood. One meaning of God is that of a personal being who created the universe by deliberate design and periodically intervenes in its natural causal processes. Defined in this sense, nirvana is not God. The Buddha did not consider it personal because personality requires definition, which nirvana excludes... If absence of a personal Creator-God is atheism, Buddhism is atheistic.

There is a second meaning of God, however, which (to distinguish it from the first) has been called the Godhead. The idea of personality is not part of this concept, which appears in mystical traditions throughout the world.

When the Buddha declared, 'There is O monks, an Unborn, neither become nor created nor formed. Were there not, there would be no deliverance from the formed, the made, the compounded,' he seemed to be speaking in this tradition. Impressed by similarities between nirvana and the Godhead, Edward Conze has compiled from Buddhist texts a series of attributes that apply to both. We are told that

“Nirvana is permanent, stable, imperishable, immovable, ageless, deathless, unborn, and unbecome, that it is power, bliss and happiness, the secure refuge, the shelter, and the place of unassailable safety; that it is the real Truth and the supreme Reality; that it is the Good, the supreme goal and the one and only consummation of our life, the eternal, hidden and incomprehensible Peace.”

We may conclude with Conze that nirvana is not God defined as a personal creator, but that it stands sufficiently close to the concept of God as Godhead to warrant the linkage in that sense.


(Buddhism: a Concise Introduction. Huston Smith and Philip Novak. Harper, San Francisco: 2003, pp. 53-54)

= = = = = = = = = =

The universal transcendent, and the human experience of and union with it, is present in most religions, including Christianity, which shares with them the notion of a new life centered in the Transcendent.

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Re analogies: I said "almost all." Still, I don't appreciate Sagan's use of analogies or similes to explain anything scientific. I Especially don't like when an evolutionist says such and such "adapted to better use the environment...." That kind of talk wrongly attributes intention or agency on the part of evolution.

Sagan nailed it not with his analogies or similes, but with his focus on the universe as it is or as it's observed, and not as the result of any supernatural creation. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to get "anything right about religion" (whatever that means, because there's no "right" about religion since it's just stuff that people makeup wily-nily.

The burden of using science or whatever else to prove the existence of a supernatural god and ETs is on the claimants. The frequency of such claims over a long period of time has the opposite effect of positive proof. This means that the claims actually serve as negative proof. Sagan is not required to prove a negative, but the claimants are required to prove a positive--if they want to be believed.

If a scientist, Sagan too, with the intent of deception ignored the fact that poop is a disgusting aspect of the universe, they would be wrong for doing so. The decision to not mention poop in his book or on his tv show was merely a matter of taste.

Okay re: the core of Christianity: It is a path toward something that has had plenty of time and claimants to make its case, but with no success. That's my refutation.

The murder of Jesus is a fact. There are different viewpoints, true. But there is only one set of facts, discovered or not, that cannot be changed by viewpoints that deviate from that set. It is a fact that people have false beliefs. It's a false equivalence to put those beliefs on par with whatever the reality happens to have been. You are going Postmodern here.

It is believable that Jesus was murdered. We are aware of the phenomenon of murder, with no harm done if we discover that Jesus' murder is a myth. Either way, a resurrection needs proof. Plenty of time. Plenty of claimants. No proof.

There are physical manifestations to all our thoughts. Didn't I say "scripture" with a small "s"? You seem to be spinning wheels on this.

Maybe you can just tell me if you believe in things that are in violation of the known laws of physics.

Your last segment is the best possible slant on being dead. Still, it's only a slant, a slant born in wishful thinking.

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It's a belief from primitive desert dwellers and you people believe in it? I can but shake my head at the sheer stupidity of it all. What about the millions of other gods christianity so easily dismiss as untrue? Why are they false and christianity true? It's all bollocks from when people didn't understand the world around them and the universe above them. They invented reasons for things to be.

Once there was a multitude of gods for flames, the wind, earth and water, various animals and birds of the sky. Probably still are some places. Christianity dismiss them all as false even if those gods are thousands of years older than christianity. Go figure.

Who cares why the biblical christ was crucified. There is not a single shred of evidence such a person have ever existed so why should we care about it? It's all fiction from a bunch of ancient desert dwelling jews who hated the romans and needed something to gather the troops, so to speak. It was probably pretty effective as a propaganda piece back in those days - the holy messiah come to save them from the romans. I think Life of Brian was closer to the truth than any christian would like to admit.

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Good comments. Though there is slight mention of JC in at least one credible written history. Anyway, his actual existence does nothing to boost the accuracy of his earthbound accounts or the credibility of claims of the supernatural.

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han-skat wrote:

It's a belief from primitive desert dwellers and you people believe in it? I can but shake my head at the sheer stupidity of it all.

And I can but shake my head at the sheer ignorance of what you posted.

And what in the world do you mean by "you people"? I am neither a Jew nor a Christian.

First - "It" is not "a" belief from "primitive desert dwellers".
"It" is actually "they" - many books, many letters, many beliefs, many stories - and they are the product of a richly sophisticated, literate Hebrew golden age.

Second - your oh-so-fictitious "desert dwellers" were really the poets, theologians, priests, royalty, prophets and scribes who produced the scriptures against which you so ignorantly rail. Perhaps you don't know, for example, that the book of Genesis is a highly sophisticated, deliberately paradoxical origins narrative that contains the writings of at least four separate schools, or that the book of Job represents a form of subversive Anti-Wisdom literature designed to deflate the platitudes of standard Wisdom literature by questioning the latter's blythe assumption that God is always understandable and good.

Who cares why the biblical christ was crucified

People of good will generally should care why Jesus was crucified, because his death was the direct result of challenging the local Roman and Jewish domination systems - oppressive systems still operative today under different names - in favor of the welfare of ordinary people. His demonstration in the Temple was a direct slap in the face of the collaborationist priestly elite and secular authority, just as it was a strike against social investment in political/military might, and for distributive justice, which in Jesus' vocabulary was called "righteousness". Jesus' martyrdom still serves humanity's basic dignity and its right to be free of religious-political tyranny. It's a real shame that you can't see or won't acknowledge its symbolic worth.

It's all fiction from a bunch of ancient desert dwelling jews

More arrogant vitriol.
First, the Old Testament was produced by urban Jews associated with king, temple, and theological schools.

Second, nor was the New Testament written by desert dwellers - it was written by literate urbanites - even a literary elite - in the sense that education, literacy and writing materials were rare and at a premium in that age.

Your lack of historical and biblical knowledge makes your attempts at demolition and sarcasm look very puerile indeed.

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First of, when I wrote 'you people' I meant the religious. Should be obvious, no?

Second, who the hell cares what they where. They thought the earth was the center of the universe, so why should we listen to anything they had to say? They probably believed disease was a punishment from god and they do believed women to be unclean when they had their period. As I wrote, primitive desert dwellers.

Why should be care if some fictional character gets killed? It doesn't matter even the slightest for anyone, anywhere, anytime.

It is fiction from a bunch of primitive people. King, priest, theologian or commoner, it's all the same when your belief is rooted in superstitions even kids of this age finds silly.

I'm not denying that the bible isn't an important book and a historical document but what it contains is the same superstitious nonsense as the rest of the holy books of religions around the world.

Lastly, history of the bible is highly suspect so I really don't care about it and secondly, I don't need to intimately know the bible to know it's nonsense.

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when I wrote 'you people' I meant the religious. Should be obvious, no?

No. You were specifically targeting those who believe in the Bible, i.e., most Christians, Jews, and Muslims (in their own Islamic manner). But thanks for the "correction", as I am among "the religious" and therefore quite logically (now) take umbrage over your "fightin' words".

who the hell cares what they where

YOU do, cuz here you are again, inventing all kinds of canards against them - just as you did in your earlier post.

They thought the earth was the center of the universe, so why should we listen to anything they had to say?

More irrelevancy. If you think the Hebrew Bible should contain a scientifically-accurate picture of cosmic/human origins, then you're just as thick as the "religious" you condemn. The biblical message is about Spirit, its relationship to humankind, and the transformation that ideally ensues from that relationship.

It is not about externals such as how the universe was created. Those stories of course do exist in Genesis, but not as pathetic wannabe surrogates for scientific explanations - rather, they instruct faithful Israelites that their tribal deity, Yahweh, and his Covenant were already operative even in the pre-Israelite world-and-human story. Science is utterly irrelevant to that story, and it is only religious and anti-religious fundamentalists who want to make science relevant to scripture.

They probably believed disease was a punishment from god and they do believed women to be unclean when they had their period. As I wrote, primitive desert dwellers.

As I wrote, the Hebrew Bible was not written by illiterate, "primitive" desert dwellers - that idea is wholly your fiction. To repeat (cuz you are just pretending not to get it):

Genesis and the other Hebrew scriptures represent a highly literate, established sophisticated culture, fully developed and greatly creative. Their "nomad desert origins", if such there were, were left far behind in previous centuries. Their scriptures were not written to give a scientific world-account - how the Hell could they? They were PRE-scientific documents - or perhaps you were expecting a miracle where God would whisper completely unintelligible scientific formulas into the ancient writers' ears.

Why should be care if some fictional character gets killed? It doesn't matter even the slightest for anyone, anywhere, anytime.

Been there, already answered. But again, to coddle your apparent cognitive disabilities, I repeat:

1) PROVE that JC was "fictional".

2) IF you do that, then you can move on to talk about the value of his life and death for those "unfortunates" who grant him historical reality.

3) Your claim that his death "doesn't matter even the slightest for anyone, anywhere, anytime", is a blatant, easily defeatable falsehood, or an outright lie. His story matters, and has mattered, to millions of Christians, and in other ways, to millions of Jews and Muslims. The same spiritual meaning, significance, and value could still pertain even if you can prove (good luck) that "Jesus was only a myth". What an egregiously silly claim you have just made.

what it contains is the same superstitious nonsense as the rest of the holy books

Exactly wrong. I could talk about other religions' scriptures, but considering your abysmal "knowledge" of the Bible specifically and of religion generally, I won't waste my time.

Sticking to the Bible, it is painfully obvious that you are unaware that (say) Jesus' teachings are timeless for the simple reason that they DO NOT support, explicate, or in any way depend upon a scientific or technological view of reality. They tap into the deepest wells of human psychology and spirituality, which have not changed for millenia.
And because these psychic, subjective, inward elements are "eternal verities", Jesus' teachings remain true and relevant, even though they have nothing whatsoever to do with science.
When Jesus said things like, "Love your neighbor as yourself, for the love of God", or "What does it gain anyone to gain the world at the price of the soul?", it doesn't matter one bit that Jesus may have believed that the earth is a flat plane located under a half-bowl dome of "firmament". It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. At. All. That you think it does is your loss.

I don't need to intimately know the bible to know it's nonsense.

False. You are in a very perilous intellectual position when you say that, especially in view of all the other ignorant stuff you've been spouting.

Moreover, your claim is exactly the same as that of fundamentalists, scientific and religious, since fundamentalism began.

You're just the misguided, arrogantly overconfident, unbelieving version of the Christian Creationist who says, "I don't need to have a solid understanding of, or carefully read about, Evolution to know it's nonsense".

Congrats. You just dug yourself a very deep pit, and you have no ladder or rope by which to extricate yourself.

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I haven't watched this film and probably wont.I got my fill of this stuff when I was younger and didn't/couldn't believe it was true.
I like to think of the bible as the original science fiction novel. If it were written and published today, that's what it would be classed as.
Angels, gods, all those crazy parables, smiting and begetting. Pretty far out and pretty racy. Well not so racy. But too many holes to fill. Which I guess comes under suspension of disbelief.
Think about the reviews and ratings it would get. Especially this segment.




Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
Bob Dylan 1965

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all those crazy parables

The parables are not only not crazy, they are pathways toward better understanding the divine and one's own relationship to it.

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Since, as I think I already mentioned, I don't believe in the divine, I will have to remain a Philistine. The parables are describing human actions and how you should not give in to basic human desires and faults. Didn't work 2000 years ago and not working today.
A: How's that working out?
B: Do as I say, not as I do never works.
C: Some basic ideas are common to every organized and disorganized religion.


The pumps don't work 'cause the Vandals stole the handles
Bob Dylan

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Then we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Have a good one.

:)

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I agree.

What "scholarly" believers peddle comes from inside a small box that keeps getting smaller and smaller the more they peddle it.

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Well I am not christian but I know the whole story and not just me.. a lot more people with different faiths knew the story. This is kind of lame question

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The world and the short life we are given to experience it all is full of mysteries, adventures and discoveries without end having a connecting purpose. We have been created to perfectly interact and inquire with all this. We label our journey naming it in the form of a question called; what is our identity and purpose in it all? The circumstances literally beg and beckon for an answer. The ORIGIN of it all brings us together under certain, detailed, individual, personal conditions called intimacy. Our response part is to seek, ask, inquire and investigate all this with one clear intention/outcome which was all set-up by the inventor i.e. to meet your creator and thank HIM for having you. Your Host if you will and you being the guest, the one invited. Many choose to except the gifts but not the gift-giver and that is exactly the intent of the brief life process. It is a weeding out of those that love and those that do not the Creator of all things. It is a willing based journey fueled by a gladness and a joy to know this subject above all others. Eternity awaits those that answer and give all they have to do so.

Richie PEARLS SERIES author

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Ever heard the saying, "Most people know more about Christianity than Christians do."?

On religion in general: Jews, Muslims, and atheists/agnostics know more about religion than Christians do. Atheists usually score higher than the other three (Jews, Muslims, agnostics).


The Pew Forum (for the United States) found that atheists knew more facts about the Bible than Christians did. In the different denominations in the US of Christianity, Mormons knew more than any of the other denominations combined and basically tied with atheists.

While it seems surprising that others would know more about Christianity than Christians would the thing is in Christian dominated countries the only way non-Christians seem to have a voice in society is either pretending to be a Christian or playing along in the "reindeer games" or combatant it. And to combatant it: you have to know the subject.

I have read 14 versions of the Bible (thanks in part to biblegateway.com). I have read the Qu'ran. The Tanakh, the Book of Mormon, parts of the Vedas and Agam Sutras (Jainism -- which I highly respect and once considered becoming a Jain but didn't believe I had the discipline for it). At first I read them all because I enjoy debating but I also like reading historical fiction with actual facts sprinkled in parts.

Many Christians don't believe I've read that many versions of the Bible and I found from one Christian why: because if reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian then there's no way I could have truly read 14 versions. The thing is: there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity in the world, and to properly debate some of them I need to know the version they read. I actually read half of the 15th version of the Bible years ago but I moved and I forgot the name of it. Not that I care, it was an overly condescending version.

The main problem I find with Christianity: each Christian can interpret it to their own meaning. It loses value that way. Other religions don't really have that problem. I mean, a couple of years ago I read about Christian Atheists. They believe Jesus is their savior but they don't believe he's god, born from the Holy Spirit, or that the god of the Bible exists. Maybe they take a bit after Thomas Jefferson but then he believed in god.

-Nam

I am on the road less traveled...

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