I wonder what people understand, who do not know about christianity? - Risen (2016) Discussion

[–] marty-130-840283 9 years ago

hi Hepe,

it may not make them understand immediately.

But, they could go away, and ponder, think about what the watched, maybe do some research, start to ask themselves questions.

ie, it might start them on a journey, to learn more about Christianity.

How about you Hepe, do you have religious views.

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[–] hepe-1 9 years ago

Hi Marty,

that's what I hope the film to do. I am a christian, but often I find chirstian films to "simple".

Best wishes,
Hepe

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[–] danrawlings 9 years ago

The Christian 'faith' is just a copy of the previous beliefs, gods became angles etc etc All a bunch of garbage anyway...

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[–] vitinho_pcc 9 years ago

Exactly

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] jcgss-17207 9 years ago

danrawlings, I must ask you, how do you know what you said? That is quite a claim to make, to say that a faith is not true. Is that a statement of opinion, or do you have evidence to support your claim? Kindly share what you may know that we don't.

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[–] bastasch8647 9 years ago

Good luck on getting any kind of responsible or deep reply from danrawlings, whose sense of history seems as shallow as his bias which dismisses religion as "garbage"... but it will be interesting to see if he ever does respond...

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[–] razy70 9 years ago

Of course faith is true No one can deny Faith as a concept exists. That however doesn't make the object of faith true. People believe in all sorts of crazy things, which aren't grounded in reality or facts.

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[–] mrwolfie 9 years ago

The onus of PROOF is on the faith in question, not the questioner of the faith. But it is a FACT that many of the traditions of Christianity date back before the times of Jesus. For example, Christmas and Easter were both pagan celebrations which were co-opted by the church.
Anyway, just remember: if you only believe in one God, one faith, then you're very close to being an atheist who doesn't believe in any. Try and think of all the Gods and all the beliefs that have ever existed, or even exist today, that you have discounted - assuming, of course, that you've studied the others sufficiently to have come to a reasonable decision...

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[–] Sejian 9 years ago

+1

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[–] Bobby9976 9 years ago

If you need proof then you do not have faith.

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[–] melchior6 9 years ago

There is no onus of proof for the beleiver. If There were proof then it wouldn't be FAITH!

Most gods in other religions are different aspects of the one God. All human beings have some sense of the divine which they will usually portray according to their culture, or individual imagination etc. If you look a the deeper esoteric teachings of most religions, you will see that they come to similar conclusions regarding an indescrible, infeffable source of reality from which all else emanates.

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[–] bastasch8647 9 years ago

There is no onus of proof on the believer because, as you mentioned, the common conclusions of esoteric spirituality are the result of evidence, of immediate experience or "gnosis" - not intellectual discourse, and not scientific "proof".

Most of these systems invite personal investigation via meditation, visualization, contemplation, watching the breath, and other "technologies of the sacred". They do not require intellection or "faith-in" or "faith-about". They require an inner search in which the questioner is not an investigator of matter as in science, but rather a "seeker" who "goes within" instead of looking outside for the answer - and the answer is direct experience of the divine (or the holy, or the Spirit, or the sacred). Therein lies the "proof". But it is not proof of external material objects. It's an immediate realization of the divine and one's situation relative to the divine. Perhaps "evidence" is a better word than "proof". It is similar to the same kind of evidence we have when we know we are in love or know that we are having a headache. It's a realization not mediated from the outside by the senses.

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[–] melchior6 9 years ago

Well said.

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[–] bastasch8647 9 years ago

Thank you, melchior.

:)

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[–] Octavian1034 9 years ago

What Dan has posted about Christianity being a copy of old religions is completely true. Go ahead and try to prove that there is a "god." Good luck with that. The only thing that religion is good for is the Earth itself, as religion since the dawn of time, not fake time 2016 years, has caused many wars and many deaths, thus reducing the human population, which in turn is the best thing for the Earth as there are way too many of us as it stands. I fully expect this to be deleted along with many of the previous posts about this subject.

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[–] life4all 9 years ago

Actually most wars are fought over land and resources rather than philosophical differences (even most "religious" wars). Christianity has embraced some ancient pagan concepts but the New Testament books themselves appear to reflect an incredible amount of detail regarding Jewish life, history, pathology and tradition. In that regard, it is not truly the "clone" religion that so many folks suggest it to be. Today no one can prove the miracles ever happened but we should tread lightly when trying to throw the Christian "baby" out with the bathwater.

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[–] lltracyhawkins 9 years ago

Faith by definition is not a truth. It is an unproven theory that one believes based on faith and not science. It is fair for people who rely on scientific evidence to questioning what really happened. There is a new religion called Naturalism that is more science and nature based.

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[–] nammage 8 years ago

Faith is believing in something without evidence to support it. In that way it is not "true", it's a strong opinion one holds about something.

-Nam

I am on the road less traveled...

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[–] trisul 9 years ago

It's a bit more complicated than that. Yes, Christianity is, as you say, just an amalgam of previous faiths, everything from virgin birth to the Christmas tree exists in older, more authentic stories.

However, that does not make it all garbage. For example, the Bible says that in the beginning there was just the Word. It is explained to us that the "Word" is Jesus, although he never made such a claim. In fact, this was taken from a belief of ancient seers about the beginning of the universe, at the beginning there was just a vibration, a sound, specifically the sound of Aum or Om, and this vibration was said to coalesce into the universe, which eventually explodes into vibration, going so in cycles. This is what physics now calls the Big Bang theory. It is even used by Hawking as his idea of how the universe came to be without divine intervention. Although the ancient seers considered the universe to be God.

Back to Christianity, we sit in churches, chanting Amen, without being aware that it is the Word, as mentioned in the Bible. Amen is Aum or Om ... the divine sound, that represents premordial resonance or vibration or sound.

So, yes, we picked up bits and pieces everywhere, put it together and give nonsensical explanations for their meaning, but at the base of it is not garbage, but truth. A wisdom that science is starting to confirm, just as it rejects the stupid interpretations we have grown accustomed to.

In other words, not garbage, but profound truth, hidden in a layer of garbage.

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[–] Sejian 9 years ago

+1

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[–] jorge-769-710105 8 years ago

the Bible says that in the beginning there was just the Word. It is explained to us that the "Word" is Jesus, although he never made such a claim

Actually, since this passage is from the Genesis, it's inferred by non-Christians that it refers to God. Me, being an agnostic, can even infer the "Physical Laws of the Universe", now that the Big Bang and that the possibility that the universe could create itself has been demonstrated.

Cheers!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's just a movie... Get over it!

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[–] trisul 8 years ago

Yes, Om is the vibration that fill the universe, the end result of the Big Bang, as the Universe spreads out to its maximum and begins to coallesce into a ball in order to trigger the next Big Bang. Ancient sages of India called this one cycle of the universe One Life of Brahma, as Brahma or the universe collapses on itself, a new Big Bang creates the new Brahma ... in an unending cycle of self-creation. Brahma creates himself out of the word or vibration called Om.

What Hawking has rediscovered is the ancient Indian theory of how God came to be, God is the universe, which is the meaning of the phrase that God is omnipresent, infinite and omnipotent. Every atom is part of God, the universe and nothing happens outside it. There is no supernatural, God is nature herself.

Somehow, in Christianity, this vision got twisted into a Sunday School version of God, illogical, supernatural, in conflict with the laws of physics. This is just an infantile version of the divine, as tought to children and uneducated laborers who could not fathom an abstract notion. Sadly, the ancient Indian philosophy is ignored, as scientist rediscover their findings. No one asks themselves how did they figure it out, without access to instruments and tools of modern science. A century back, we would have laughed at their ideas, now they are turning out to have been correct.

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[–] Octavian1034 9 years ago

Presisely!

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[–] beaverkisser 9 years ago

Hmmm...
I've never heard that "gods became angles". Did you hear that in a geometry class?

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[–] beresfordjd 8 years ago

Totally agree - no more real than Star Wars.

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[–] raf-33 9 years ago

The only people who don't understand the Christian faith are either extra terrestrials or live in the Amazon... Neither are likely to find a copy of this movie.

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov

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[–] hepe-1 9 years ago

that's not right. in germany, many people do not know, what's behind most of the holidays. 40 years of communism in the east left its marks. and additionally we have lot of refugees now, with cultural backgrund.

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[–] lucascolebooks 9 years ago

The road is narrow...

Most people--no matter how educated or literate--who populate these message boards--will have anything good to say about this film or the Christian faith. The film was well made and, because of the Tribune's role, kept the viewer in suspense. It could have ended in many ways. The Christian faith is increasingly disparaged in what was once the most prominently Christian country in the world, but now rapidly becoming secular, if not pagan. As someone sarcastically pointed out, it is not through lack of sending out the Word that will cause many to fall, but rather rejection by lost and hardened souls who point out how foolish believers are. A nice summary though for them, courtesy of the Bible: The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.

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[–] lucascolebooks 9 years ago

Make that "nothing" (instead of "anything") above.

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[–] mkxlng 9 years ago

A nice summary, courtesy of me: The fool has said he believes in dumb made up *beep* written down 2000 years ago without any empirical evidence.

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[–] bastasch8647 9 years ago

he believes in dumb made up *beep* written down 2000 years ago without any empirical evidence

You have made a testable claim. Let's test it:

What part or parts of the New Testament are just "made up"?

Why are they - what makes them - " *beep* "?

What in the world could possibly constitute empirical evidence for Christness, Godness, the conversion experience, the descent of Spirit at Pentecost, and/or spirituality?

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[–] mkxlng 9 years ago

"What in the world could possibly constitute empirical evidence for Christness, Godness, the conversion experience, the descent of Spirit at Pentecost, and/or spirituality? "

Nothing. That's what goes to show it's rather meaningless. The best evidence for Christ is a book written at and unclear time by unknown men about and event 2000 years ago, most likely those stories were passed down by word before actually being written down. It contains magical events, it was translated multiple times and edited by the church. It contradicts itself at times. The only reason people believe in it is because they are indoctrinated into their belief, and if they weren't, they would take it for the nonsense that they think every other religion is.

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[–] bastasch8647 9 years ago

"What in the world could possibly constitute empirical evidence for Christness, Godness, the conversion experience, the descent of Spirit at Pentecost, and/or spirituality? "

Nothing. That's what goes to show it's rather meaningless

Except that you brought up the empirical evidence issue. Godness, Christness, centering in the Spirit, "rising and dying" into a new, transformed spiritual life, conversion, union/communion with God are not materially quantifiable, but that does not make them unreal. Since God or the Spirit or the Holy have always been objects of personal experience, then of course, and inevitably, evidence for God cannot be found in the external world, any more than can (say) one's love of Truth, Beauty, or Goodness, or the fact that you may be experiencing a migraine attack. The God-experience is subjectively verifiable, which means it is something, not nothing. The major truths of religion are all subjectively experienced and not physically quantifiable, but that doesn't make them false or unreal.

It contains magical events

Depends on the events. The paranormal has always happened and will continue to happen, so some of the NT's miraculous events may have actually occurred in consensus-reality spacetime. But more to the point, most of the "miracles" or wonders reported of Jesus' ministry have been documented in cross-cultural anthropological studies, as have the major features of his social role:

According to the NT, Jesus was:

a charismatic leader
a reform movement founder
a social prophet
an exorcist and healer
a shamanic or shamanistic practitioner
a transformative sage
a subversive wisdom teacher
a mediator to the divine
a divine union mystic
a protester against an established priesthood
a teacher of a new kind of life via participation in a novel inbreaking of "God's Kingdom"

None of the above traits call for a leap into the "magical", the "Pagan Myth", or supernatural. On the contrary, they are documented traits, actions, and features of scores of "holy people" the world over. In ascribing these well-known categories to Jesus, the NT presents him as no more implausible than are the many shamans, healers/exorcists, enlightened sages, prophets, etc., of which social science so richly informs us.

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[–] jcgss-17207 9 years ago

mkxlng-So then, what do you do with the various noted and dependable historians, like Josephus, as well as many other Atheistic historians, who have confirmed that not only did Jesus live and was seen after his crucifixion, but that it is proven without a doubt with eye witness testimony? Do you have a way to refute that?

You see, you think that there is a problem with us proving our faith, which is quite easily seen, but the actual problem is in secularists and humanists disproving our faith. And, if I may take this a step further, why is it that Christianity is the only faith which is singled out so?

Perhaps because it is the only true one? Is that what you, and people like you are so afraid of, that you must attack us, and God?

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[–] atmadarkwolf 9 years ago

I watched this, and I found myself thinking of so many various ways the events could have happened (with mortal hands) - Could easily have been one of the earliest heists, hoaxes, with so very little 'sleight of hand'

This is considering what was available at the time, without suggesting any of the 'testimonies' were false. (Although this whole 'confirmed' from 'eyewitness testimony' concept directly contradicts each other- Confirmed would be evidence he was at said location at said time, IE: in our day and age it would be video evidence, or a photograph with something to confirm where/when said photo was taken, etc)

Saying that it is 'irrefutable proof' when so and so said something or other, is just plain silly.

Case in point, if you talk to ANY person who's convinced something is true, even when you prove it otherwise, they will find 'ways' to explain it, even so much as 'I know its true because I saw it myself' (Which is a direct lie, but they refuse to 'accept' that they lie)

So regardless what others think, and I apologize to the faithful, watching this just did nothing to 'convince me' of anything. It WAS a good movie, well made and shot, but I didn't get anything coming out that I didn't have going in. (Possibly had 'more' going in, in the sense that I came up with multiple ways a hoax could have been done to convince others.. basically just an attempt at politics.

but as with anything, and sadly so many faithful out there refuse to do this, don't believe what others TELL you to believe simply because they told you. Believe what you see, decide for yourself.

Remember: Science got us to the moon, religion flies planes into buildings.

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[–] Seth_Raven 9 years ago

Remember: Science got us to the moon, religion flies planes into buildings.

The last time I checked it was fanaticism and not religion who flies planes into buildings.

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[–] jcgss-17207 9 years ago

Of course there was no video recorded evidence of this, as you said, it was not invented yet. So therefore, how do we know that the Romans even existed as is recorded in history? Can't we then use your own means of conjecture to written fact? And while we are there, how can we believe anything at all that we haven't seen with our own eyes? Your path of doubt is merely situational with you, my friend. You must be an atheist, as the believe is a firm grasping at straws that everything is subjective, yet so much of nature and life is based upon firm rules which CANNOT be circumvented. And also, with that line of reasoning, you cannot prove anything, and you also cannot DISPROVE anything either. Careful with your argument.

As far as the story, it is a work of fiction. It is centered around a historical event, the most important event in history. Don't miss that last statement I made, it is true.

And about your very Nye statement about science, you must remember it had to come from somewhere. The naive belief that all natural laws and principles just sprang into existence with no cause is utter ignorance of the facts all around you. The rules of physics, for example, cannot be refuted, and also cannot be created by man.

And false religion is what causes man to fly planes into buildings. Please do not compare Biblical Christianity to the islamic faithful, as there are no comparisons between the two. Biblical Christians do not murder, suppress, or cheat to cause terror. Only insane people do.

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[–] icxnamjah 9 years ago

We know because we have evidence of their existence. Mountains of it. A historical Jesus could have existed, but the biblical claims of his 'divinity' remains unproven. I don't care that a normal man by the name of Jesus could have existed, I question the claims of his 'divinity'. There is hardly ANY evidence of his existence period. 'Eye witness testimony' is utter bullocks. No real court of law even remotely takes it seriously. Why? Because people LIE. People's brains are also extremely fragile to deception and illusion.

"When someone looks at me and earnestly says, 'I know what I saw,' - I am fond of replying, 'No, you don't'. You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under." - Dr. Steven Novella; Neurologist.

Now go back over 2,000 years where the world was practically illiterate, not to mention have virtually no knowledge of basic science. Add in hysteria, hearsay, etc. and boom, a myth is born. Not to mention the enormous amount of stories similar to the Jesus myth that have already existed at the time.

I LACK belief in your claims or any religious claims about their 'faith'. What can asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nor is it the 'most important event in history'. China is a near 10,000 year old civilization that archaeological evidence shows began ~8,000 BCE. and had never even heard about your christian religion until the late 8th century CE. I bet to wager that they believe other events were FAR more important. I bet many americans believe that the signing of the declaration of independence is even more important. I can go on and on. What a claim to make when said claim has never been proven to be true or even happened. Just written about via HEARSAY and nothing more.

Just because you don't know something does not give you the right to assert something that has never been proven to be true. Why exactly does it HAVE to come somewhere? How did you exactly prove that there is some kind of universal intrinsic purpose? Because it HAS to be true? Why? Quantum physics have proven that things actually DO in fact pop into existence. Why must our universe be the ONLY universe? Why isn't "I don't know until evidence comes to light the far better stance? You may not see it this way, but believers are the arrogant ones. You assert unknowable knowledge as fact or 'truth'. I prefer to wait and never claim anything that isn't knowable. That is the MOST intellectually honest position.

Is islam not a religion? Their religion was what made planes fly into buildings. Therefore logic states that it is in FACT because of religion.

Christians do not murder? Supress? Cause terror? ARE YOU JOKING ME?

Who were the ones going APE *beep* when gay marriage was FINALLY legalized? Who killed those people at planned parenthood? Who were the ones that chopped off people's heads during the crusades? Spanish inquisition? Shall I go on?

Go ahead and bring up Stalin. I don't care if he was an atheist. One can not KILL in the name of no god. If you believe that you need to believe in a magical sky daddy in order to be good, you are insane. Therefore, he killed for his OWN agenda. In modern times, take a gander at all the atheistic nations in central europe, scandanvian countries, japan, s. korea., etc. - lowest crime rates in the world. Leading in economy and education. I have proven statistics ready to fire off with peer reviewed evidence in case you need more.

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[–] jcgss-17207 9 years ago

My friend, after reading your post you still are just offering the word of mouth rhetoric you are accusing me of. I have evidence of highly regarded historians of the time when Jesus lived that He not only existed, but is who the Bible says He is. That the exact events of his life and death were not only true, but chronicled. Your quote of Dr. Steven Novella just further shows what I said-that when you view life through the lense of atheistic objectivity, that you doubt EVERYTHING. Therefore, nothing can be truth, and therefore you do not exist. Does that make any sense? Why do you ignore your own flawed views of life, and then attack mine, which have concrete evidence? I have millenia of documentation as well as evidence to support my claims. You have merely supposition. I am only saying this in the hope you will open your eyes to what is actually all around you.

Now you say China had no evidence of Christianity until the 8th century, I ask you-how do you know? And if they are the oldest civilization in history, why are they nearly the worst? I mean, are you aware of their state of affairs? The pollution? The welfare of the common person? How they ostracize Christians only, and let other religions go? Do these things mean anything to you?

As far as your quantum mechanics statement, I really need to see the evidence of things "just popping into existence". That is quite an absurdity, to think something comes from nothing.

Christians do not murder. Read the Bible, and see what it teaches. One who murders is not a Christian, and that is quite clear. Jesus said that those who follow me will listen to me. He teaches not to murder. Therefore, a Christian is not a murderer. And the Crusades have a bit of a problem for your argument. First, the Roman Catholic church was who was leading that, not Christians. Same book, but different beliefs. And the Crusades were not about beheading people, it was about protecting people from islam and the subjugation it was causing. You see the evidence today of the cancer of islam. And the Inquisition? Please, I would think you were more educated than that, the inquisition was nothing more than the hand of the king, they used and abused the Roman Catholic church name as power grabbing and oppression of their own people. As far as I can remember, no European king/queen was a Christian. If so, they would not have done the things they did.

Just so you know, South Korea is predominately Christian, which speaks to the low crime rate. Japan is in a state of decline due to socialist government model, and your beloved socialism is forcing Scandinavian youth to commit suicide at record rates. This is a good thing? You need to truly do your due diligence into what you believe is good about this world. I agree that in education, we are lagging. But, again, that is due to the influence of Marxist philosophies infecting our government. The Constitution is not a fluid, living document, but a concrete, ironclad backbone for a government that works.

So, I ask, please share your facts which support your statements.

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[–] hepe-1 9 years ago

Hi Wolf,

many scientists of old times thought, that the scientific rules point to the "ruler" god. :-)

I think, that it is a good thing to think about and challenge religious beliefs. Had the people in the past known more and thought more about the core of the christian belief, so much pain and suffering could have been avoided! So you are right about that!

Best wishes,
Hepe

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[–] GreenTintedSpecs 9 years ago

lmao

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[–] jcgss-17207 9 years ago

May I ask why you respond this way? Do you have something to add to the conversation?

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[–] hakmer_thefake 9 years ago

Why would the disbelief in god makes one a fool?
And believing makes one what? A smart person?

I'm an ex-Christian and I must say that I really like the movie. I don't believe in Jesus anymore as I used to. What made the movie good to me is not exactly the Jesus story but rather the journey Clavius went through. Say, hypothetically there is a god and a son of god and you meet this son of good whose culture, whose ideas, whose doing is somewhat beneficial through your eyes, kind and benevolent as it is through Clavius eyes, wouldn't you have a change of heart?

I can appreciate the movie that way, but that still won't make me believe there is a god, and that would not make me a fool.

There are many reasons people don't believe a god or in my case stop believing in one.

One for example is, there's no proof that god exist. Which is one of the reason for me. Another reason is, people go through life doing certain things expecting heaven, a reward. And in a lot of cases, people care less about people, and all they care about is this reward. And I see greed there. The ultimate reward. Some people do good things not because they are good, but because a book told them if they acted kindly then they're going to heaven. Which is I guess, though disturbing for me, is fine. After all your faith is not my business (nor my lack of faith yours) . But there are people who would do anything to get to heaven. Suicide bomb, somebody hearing Jesus or the holy spirit that they should kill their children, or whatever. Where people see salvation, I see greed. And my appreciation of this movie is that it didn't talk about heaven. It talked about a better way of life.

"An end to travail, a day without death. Peace."

Now do I appreciate Jesus' teachings? Sure. But I would never agree that to be saved you need to have faith in him first while he said the most important of the 3, hope faith, and love is love. And yet if you're kind and don't have faith, if you love people and don't have faith, you're going to hell anyway. So why bother with that kind of god, who value whether people believe him or not over whether people are kind or not. Even if Christianity toned it down, it's still a megalomania ruling the universe (assuming god exist).

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[–] Tyrfingr 9 years ago

I understand it in a philosophical manner why he was put to death and resurrected. My way of thinking is that the bible was/is a collaborate work of morality and ethics as represented by stories that carried such notions. And is not supposed to be read into as a literal story of actual events. But that's of course where believers and unbelievers divide. The former really believes it. I suppose that the reason why people believe in and follow Jesus is personal enough, that it is hard to state a common general reason for it. People find their way into all sorts of beliefs through different experiences. Some immidiately get caught up in what they read. Others hit rock bottom and find a good reason to lift themselves up by living up to higher standards that Jesus put upon himself, striding towards something impossible. Yet others who feel alone in the world, find solace in what they read, and that common believers works like an extended family.

Unbelievers quite generally seem to take the stance towards any faith as one would do towards say, hellenistic beliefs or the ancient Egyptian faith. If a person today were to worship a religion of a dead culture, people would certainly react at once. If you worship a religion that is still carried on through a living culture, people only barely question it.

In the end i'll be watching the movie and hope that it will be a well played out story.

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[–] eimarmeni 9 years ago

You asked a really simple question that has an equal simple answer.
What do YOU think every time you watch a movie based on stories from religions other than your own? What do you think when you watch "The Mahabharata" (http://tinyurl.com/zs8zzap)or "Confucius" (http://tinyurl.com/ztv8pom) for example? You stand back and think or you write the stories off cause your culture is different and you can't relate to them?

Christianity is just another religion among thousands in the history of time. It's not the best, it's not the worst. It just is. And as all religions before and still, tries to answer mans ancient spiritual questions of "why", "how" and "where".

How people in the ages used religion, it's another story altogether.

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[–] mrferrin 9 years ago

Simply put, Jesus bought back for us what Adam lost. When Jesus was here on earth, it was a preview of what life will be like on earth under God's Kingdom with Jesus ruling as King.

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[–] Bobby9976 9 years ago

Faith is an entirely personal thing and opinions regarding it are just that.

Seems a shame though that people have no respect for other people's beliefs whatever they are. This is truly the age of the keyboard warrior, troll and cyberbully.

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