MovieChat Forums > Obvious Child (2014) Discussion > I now understand the pro-abortion/pro-ch...

I now understand the pro-abortion/pro-choi ce stance


It took a while, but now I get it and I want to share my thoughts. See what you think.

OK, I've always had an problem understanding how a person can not realize that abortion is in fact killing an innocent human being. Unborn to be sure, but a human being. It finally dawned on me me reading a comment from a woman who'd seen Obvious Child, and it all just clicked.

She says she was so happy that abortion could be shown as a positive, well thought out decision. She recounted that she was essentially forced to carry a baby to term when she was ill equipped to be a mother, and immediately gave the baby up for adoption (this was before Rowe v Wade). She just wished that safe and legal abortion would have been available in her day.

So here's a woman, who acknowledged that she brought a REAL human being in to the world, living and breathing (that is, didn't even hide behind the whole, "oh it's just a bunch of cells" line), and she casually says she wished she could have just done away with this kid without skipping a beat. Her son's life is soooo insignificant to her, that she doesn't even see this as a moral issue at all. Just an issue of convenience. She didn't want to be a mom at the time, and therefore the kid had to die.

So here's my epiphany in all this: Pro-abortion people are just completely desensitized. They see this as nothing but a political issue, rather than right/wrong or life/death. They see this as, being pro-life is a conservative thing, and they'd rather burn to death on a bed of hot coal than be seen as someone who might possibly be associated with evil-doers and crazies like Bush, Reagan, or vile racists/bigots like Rush Limbaugh.

As far as they're concerned, taking this human life (and they refuse to acknowledge that it's life, or don't care) is a right to be protected at all costs. The pro-abortion crowd talks about rape and incest as if it's the main reason to keep abortion legal. The reality is rape/incest make up only a miniscule percentage of those seeking abortion. The reality is reflected in this movie. A healthy woman gets pregnant of consensual sex (in this case, a one night stand), decides it would inconvenience her life, so the kid's gotta go.

Ironically, it's typical that these same pro-abortion people would be the first in line again the death penalty. They're fine taking an innocent life, but don't you dare take the life of a violent murderer. You have your priorities screwed up, people.

Like it or not, you ARE in fact taking an innocent life who has done nothing wrong. If you're not ready to be a mom, then either DON'T HAVE SEX, or use a condom/birth control..etc. If you DO get pregnant after using protection, then you need to face one of the consequences of having sex---a human being.


~I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong~

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I'm against later term abortion, but having one as early as was shown in this movie is just ejecting a little bloody clump of cells, not a baby.

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Daily single-tweet movie reviews: https://twitter.com/SlackerInc

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By the 3rd sentence your "argument" was invalid; in a "not even wrong, but actually logically worthless" sense.

A potential (or real, if you want to hold a fetus is a human being) human being is not a person and thus does not posses any of the rights conferred upon human beings which have acquired personhood. A animal which is a human being is a biological fact, not a moral fact (here the is/ought distinction is important). A person can not be killed against his/her will, but a human being (or potential) one can since it is not a person and thus has no rights and thus the killing is not murder (which is wrongful killing) but just killing which in and of itself is not wrong (in fact it is often the most moral thing to do such as in the case of mercy killing/euthanasia).

This is really not hard stuff, basic BioEthics 101 material. If every anti-abortionist even read (and comprehended...if they could) a few pages of philosophic/academic material on the subject, then they would cease to be anti-abortionists. That simple. It's like teaching someone that 2+2 does not equal 5, it equals 4. Only the person ignorant of this mathematical necessity could possibly deny it. Ignorance (and intellectually dishonesty/irrationality/immaturity) is the only reason anyone is anti-abortion as there are no sound, or even decent, arguments against abortion. Thus why philosophers/ethicists (and those who study them) are almost all pro-choice (as well as those with higher IQ's and educational levels in general since they can more easily grasp the logic of such issues). Those that aren't are not proper philosophers/ethicsists (and hold low positions in the philosophic world). Abortion is not only morally permissible, in most cases it is a moral necessity given the multifarious consequences for the potential person who is brought into a world that does not want it which are so numerous it would take at least many paragraphs enumerating them.

Here's some basic material for just the very start:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/abortion/

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bluesdoctor, perfectly coherently explained every nuance.
That first paragraph in particular nailed it & I believe reveals somewhat where the problem & misunderstanding between (what is certainly ANGRY/passionate) opposing sides is born: asserting they each have answers neither truly does. That is the fact...that no one knows for certain. You are correct there.
Which, in my estimation, makes it far more imperative to exercise caution, prudence & if able to seek this out, as end objective, good moral judgement.

Arete-1.
You could NOT have been more pompous, arrogant & insulting in pontificating your outrageously incompetent thread.
To me, almost bordering on amusement--this overwhelming seething level of condescension. So palpable, you must choke on it every morning.
With every syllable you crank out, you demonstrate further your own inflated ego & flawed opinion of yourself. So you think you are more educated & intelligent than those that oppose you? Well, no, sadly, you are not. Not even close.
And appears to be your aim to be as offensive & insulting as can be to (all I can intimate)intimidate those who do not agree with you.
Fact is, I'm sure I could rip out your foundation, AND your baseless argument to shreds if I felt the urge. I honestly am confident I hold keen appraisal of your skill, just given your verbose but mistaken missive here that acts as ammunition to triumph in such debate. But what's the point on wasting time on such a worthless cretin. Plus also there's the risk I'd surely then appear as boastful, proud & intolerant as you are (jackass) which that alone, would be a total horror to learn. Thankfully, we have nothing in common.
Again, very annoyed by your deluded self-estimation where I think I judge things, myself included, rationally. Since you care to throw stones at others, I will let you know that I know I'm smart. I have the documentation & success to prove it. I also am smart enough to know that there are others far smarter than I. Just not YOU, dude.
I truly surmise you find yourself seriously compelling as you insult & spew your hateful venom. Ah......if not to hide behind your keyboard in utter anonymity (while you attack your opposition!), NOW that is the DREAM! I see you this sad, angry, impotent & useless tiny man.

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Pro-choice people are not pro-abortion, they just believe that a woman should be able to choose what she does with her own body. Dont agree with abortion? Dont get one, pure and simple.

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In this movie she had an abortion as soon as it was physically possible to have the kind of abortion her local clinic offered. How developed could the embryo possibly be? Its nervous system could not support even the most rudimentary level of consciousness. It's functioning as a part of her body--absolute zero viability outside the womb.

I can see where serious moral issues arise in the later stages of fetal development. But hardly anyone wants to have or perform a late stage abortion unless there is a medical danger to the woman if she gave birth. Out of context preaching and legislating about "partial birth abortion" tends to ignore the problems that lead to such extreme (and rare) measures.

If terminating even an embryo early in the first trimester bothers you, support the morning after pill and other forms of "abortion" that end the pregnancy before there is anything that remotely resembles a human being or any other complex organism.

In cases (the vast majority) where there are no issues worth discussing regarding viability or sentience, I see abortion as being no one else's business. Even in more controversial (and again, rare) situations that politicians sensationalize, the right of a person to bodily autonomy must be taken into account.

If not, then how do you feel about mandatory blood and marrow donations? It would save lives, after all.

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I see the future, where they will have options to transfer the fertilized egg to another woman - if wished. Or, if you want to get really scifi, they just put it in an artificial womb.

I can already see how "they" will try to use some "made up" reasons why the woman has no right to get rid of their fertilized embryo this way.

Its all about that women should marry and not having sex. Its about control, nasty style. If the kid starves to death because the woman is, for example, a careless drug addict, they couldn't care less about the dead child.

You will find lots of those "ethical" post birth examples thrown out of the window by constructing some sort of "universal parental responsibility" - when lots of the animal population gives up their newborns (to die) for lots of reasons. Since humans are nothing more than better animals, the natures law doesn't change just because you say so.

Nobody is really "pro-abortion". In many countries the safety net is so strong, that lots of women doesn't even think about that and abortion rates are at a all time minimum. You would argue, that creating a strong social net (for women) could create insane drop rates in abortions.

If they wanted this kind of paradise, they would argue about it. But they wont. Because its, again, about control of those "sluts". All the other arguments are just religious colored smoke and mirrors.


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...it's typical that these same pro-abortion people would be the first in line again the death penalty.


There's no such thing as "pro-abortion". It's called "pro-choice". Meaning we let the people decide on their own if they want to get one or not. I am pro-choice, but I would use my choice to NOT get an abortion. My g/f is also pro-choice and would never get an abortion.

I feel by saying "pro-abortion" you are purposely trying to slant the argument in your favor.

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