MovieChat Forums > Obvious Child (2014) Discussion > I now understand the pro-abortion/pro-ch...

I now understand the pro-abortion/pro-choi ce stance

posted 11 years ago by scorp123-1
42 replies | jump to latest

It took a while, but now I get it and I want to share my thoughts. See what you think.

OK, I've always had an problem understanding how a person can not realize that abortion is in fact killing an innocent human being. Unborn to be sure, but a human being. It finally dawned on me me reading a comment from a woman who'd seen Obvious Child, and it all just clicked.

She says she was so happy that abortion could be shown as a positive, well thought out decision. She recounted that she was essentially forced to carry a baby to term when she was ill equipped to be a mother, and immediately gave the baby up for adoption (this was before Rowe v Wade). She just wished that safe and legal abortion would have been available in her day.

So here's a woman, who acknowledged that she brought a REAL human being in to the world, living and breathing (that is, didn't even hide behind the whole, "oh it's just a bunch of cells" line), and she casually says she wished she could have just done away with this kid without skipping a beat. Her son's life is soooo insignificant to her, that she doesn't even see this as a moral issue at all. Just an issue of convenience. She didn't want to be a mom at the time, and therefore the kid had to die.

So here's my epiphany in all this: Pro-abortion people are just completely desensitized. They see this as nothing but a political issue, rather than right/wrong or life/death. They see this as, being pro-life is a conservative thing, and they'd rather burn to death on a bed of hot coal than be seen as someone who might possibly be associated with evil-doers and crazies like Bush, Reagan, or vile racists/bigots like Rush Limbaugh.

As far as they're concerned, taking this human life (and they refuse to acknowledge that it's life, or don't care) is a right to be protected at all costs. The pro-abortion crowd talks about rape and incest as if it's the main reason to keep abortion legal. The reality is rape/incest make up only a miniscule percentage of those seeking abortion. The reality is reflected in this movie. A healthy woman gets pregnant of consensual sex (in this case, a one night stand), decides it would inconvenience her life, so the kid's gotta go.

Ironically, it's typical that these same pro-abortion people would be the first in line again the death penalty. They're fine taking an innocent life, but don't you dare take the life of a violent murderer. You have your priorities screwed up, people.

Like it or not, you ARE in fact taking an innocent life who has done nothing wrong. If you're not ready to be a mom, then either DON'T HAVE SEX, or use a condom/birth control..etc. If you DO get pregnant after using protection, then you need to face one of the consequences of having sex---a human being.

~I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong~

[–] drew_atreides 11 years ago

"So here's my epiphany in all this: Pro-abortion people are just completely desensitized. They see this as nothing but a political issue, rather than right/wrong or life/death."

I don't think that's right at all. I think people today are more self-aware then ever before, and they are able to gauge whether they feel that, at their current point in life, they are in a position of both maturity and financial security to realistically be able to support and raise a child in a healthy environment.

I think the pro-choice vs. pro-life debate ultimately comes down to what you, as an individual, define a responsible human being to be. Pro-life says "once you're pregnant, that's it. You have a child and you are responsible for it, no matter where you are at in your life."

Pro-choice is more concerned with what kind of life-style that potential child might have.

"King of the Monsters: Savior of our City?"

[–] scorp123-1 11 years ago

"
Pro-choice is more concerned with what kind of life-style that potential child might have.

So if that person decides they can't properly take care of the child, the child dies? That's still murder. The child wasn't given a choice, and that child is being killed for the selfish convenience of the mother.

I still say, pro-abortion people fail to see it as what it is: a moral issue. They see it as political. It's their "right" to take their own unborn child's life if they feel like it.

~I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong~

[–] doggie_rodriguez 10 years ago

There is no such thing as "pro-abortion". That is just something people with low IQ's say to slant the argument.

Me & my girlfriend= pro-choice

And we will use that choice to not get an abortion.

Thanks for playing!

You conservatives sure love fetuses. Too bad you want nothing to do with them once they are born.

[–] ciocio-2 11 years ago

Yours was a thoughtful post, and well written (although you did misspell "minuscule," but that's being really picky). I want to ask, though, do you honestly believe that all the people who've been killed by various states, with official sanction, are violent murderers? Or even murderers of any kind? Many are, of course, but many have not been and were put to death nevertheless. I would think that you would also be opposed to state killings, as well as being against abortions (and you probably are). Even if we could somehow be absolutely certain that every prisoner on death row was guilty of the crime of which he or she was accused, I would still be against the death penalty, simply because I think state-sponsored killing is barbaric, and not something I want my country to be doing; I don't want the USA to be that kind of country. I think it only fosters the kind of culture where more and more violent crimes are committed. It also puts us at a disadvantage with other, civilized countries, who refuse to extradite US criminals they apprehend, if there's a chance those criminals might receive the death penalty back here. It's pretty incredible that our government still engages in this. Killing babies is wrong, and so is killing any human, except perhaps if that human is directly threatening the life of someone else.

Multiplex: 100+ shows a day, NONE worth watching. John Sayles' latest: NO distribution. SAD.

[–] scorp123-1 11 years ago

Yes, I'm perfectly OK with the death penalty. The reason I'm OK with it because it is indeed reserved for the worst of the worst... those whose crimes are so horrendous, they simply need to be gone. That's what the death penalty is reserved for these days. That is, it isn't used for just any crime (if it were, I'd have a different take on it).

I'm not against abortion simply because it's "killing" a human being. I'm against abortion because it's murdering an *innocent* human being... as in, has done absolutely nothing wrong, and cannot defend him/herself. His/her only sin being the mother has decided it just won't be convenient to have the child live. Again, the death penalty is saying, you can't simply brutally murder someone, and expect to live.

Please note, the Bible doesn't say "thou shalt not kill", it says "thou shalt not murder". Huge difference between the two.

~I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong~

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] The_Mahatma_Fonzie 11 years ago

The justice system is not perfect. Innocent people have been put to death by the death penalty. Innocent people, who have done nothing wrong, have been captured by the state and murdered. You support continuing murder.

Fetuses spontaneously abort all the time. Purposefully aborting a fetus before it's born harms no one. Why do you care about every possible baby being born? There are lots of babies. Go take care of the neglected ones if you care so much about babies. Just because someone has become pregnant doesn't mean she has to have a baby. Why the pathological demand that all fetuses be born?

My smile is stuck, I cannot go back to your frownland.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] red_red_robyn 10 years ago

Actually 10-20% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage which is also known as spontaneous abortion.

[–] The_Mahatma_Fonzie 10 years ago

10-20% of known pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. The overall number is certainly higher.

My smile is stuck, I cannot go back to your frownland.

[–] The_Mahatma_Fonzie 10 years ago

Do you think that emotional manipulation is a rational argument?

You love your baby? Wonderful! Keep'em. But why should every woman who gets pregnant have to have the baby? There will still be plenty of babies, and you can still have your baby.

Why do you want all possible babies to be born? Is there a reason that we should force women who don't want to have children to have children?

I'm genuinely curious why you want all possible babies to be born? Is it just because they're cute?

Go watch them rip the babies limbs off and then stab it in the head with scissors and then tell me its not alive.

I'm pretty sure if the baby's been stabbed in the head, I could safely tell you it's not alive.

My goodness with people like you in the world its no wonder the moral decay and intelligence continues to decline. Educate yourself, idiot.

Yeah? And in what way do you derive your morals?

My smile is stuck, I cannot go back to your frownland.

[–] doggie_rodriguez 10 years ago

You are an absolute idiot without a clue in the world.

I like how you didn't understand what he was saying so you called him an idiot.

My goodness with people like you in the world its no wonder the moral decay and intelligence continues to decline. Educate yourself, idiot.

Actually as people's dependence on religion has decreased people's IQ's have increased. I'm not saying religion is bad, but I am saying you are inaccurate about intelligence declining.

[–] activista 10 years ago

@thecreamofthecrop

Liberals like this always love to act as if the death penalty and pro life are contradictions. Um, they're not. The death penalty was reserved for the most evil of evil who have taken innocent lives with no remorse like a rabid dog. How is that the same thing as some selfish whore snuffing out an innocent child's life simply because they're too lazy and selfish to want to raise it or give it up for adoption?

You know what? You are out of your damn mind. You sound like one of these pro-life nuts who harass women going into abortion clinics. Bottom line, if a women wants to have an abortion, it's HER damn decision, NOT yours. So who gives a damn what you think about it? And,yes, a baby is nothing but a clump of cells before it first starts forming. A woman had only up until the 4th month to have an abortion, after that forget it. You fcking crazy pro-lifers make it sound like fully-formed babies are being aborted---which isn't the case. "Selfish whore"? WTF?!? Get the hell back on your fcking meds before you post some of your crazy reactionary bulls*** again.

[–] MissVCI 10 years ago

But being pro-life and killing are contradictions. There are extreme pro-lifers who kill doctors who perform abortions. I always found that fact ironic. You are against a woman killing an unborn child, a child that if born at that point wouldn't survive on it's own, but have no problem killing a full-grown human.

And honestly, you don't know if that child is innocent or will grow up to be innocent. I'm playing devil's advocate here think how many lives would have been saved if the Oklahoma bomber, the columbine teens, the dark knight shooter, etc.. had been aborted

Adoption isn't 100% guaranteed option for every child. You hope your child will go to a good home, but might in up in the foster system. I wouldn't want to spend 9 months of my life just for my kid to wind up in the foster system. When you are pregnant you need all kinds of support family support, financial support, medical support and some women don't have any of that so abortion is there best option.

Abortion may be considered a selfish option, but sometimes it is the best option, when the woman knows she wouldn't be able to prorperly provide for the kid when she can barely provide for herself.

Honestly i disliked this movie because they made abortion just seem way to casual, the mom, the friend both had abortions, and the friend just expected her to get one. I

[–] Mr Blue-4 9 years ago

Wow, you really suck at this.

Liberals like this always love to act as if the death penalty and pro life are contradictions. Um, they're not.

I'm a pro choice liberal that also is for the death penalty. EXCEPT...that this country can not administer the death penalty fairly. So until we can, I'm for a hiatus in it. However, the main point remains: if you are anti-abortion that you have to be anti-death penalty as well.

The death penalty was reserved for the most evil of evil who have taken innocent lives with no remorse like a rabid dog.

Seeing as it's been PROVEN that innocent people have been put on death row, and it's been PROVEN that there are racial disparities in executing the death penalty (black criminals receive it more often than white ones, higher penalties for white victims over black ones), then your statement is proven false.

How is that the same thing as some selfish whore snuffing out an innocent child's life simply because they're too lazy and selfish to want to raise it or give it up for adoption?

Thanks for continuing to prove how wrong and stupid you are by insisting it's lazy and selfish to have an abortion. And you're clearly a dude. Can you get pregnant? No. So you can't interfere with any woman wanting to control her body. You're not the one that is pregnant for 9 months, so as usual, you have no basis to insist on adoption.

Oh, dictating an ultrasound must be had, accompanied with anti-abortion propaganda, proves that you have no legitimate argument against abortion. You have to try and get everyone as bent and bitter as you are. Too bad most of us are smarter, saner, and more respectful of women than you are. Another way in which progressives run circles against knuckle-draggers like yourself.

[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

You're not the one that is pregnant for 9 months, so as usual, you have no basis to insist on adoption.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone that has even mentioned adoption (as an option) in this forum has never actually adopted a child. Probably never even got a pamphlet, let alone gave it any serious consideration.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (33407653) 10 years ago

You are perfectly okay with the death penalty! You are such damned hypocrite! I worked for a Catholic nonprofit for many years. Unlike you those nuns were genuinely pro-life. Yes, they opposed abortion, but they were also vehemently opposed to the death penalty and almost every war this country has fought over the last century. I used to gaze in astonishment and disgust when those supposed pro-lifers came out in droves to support George Bush, who presided over a couple of hundred executions and forced his way into Iraq in an invasion that cost over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis, many of them children, their lives. Pro-life indeed! Only in your addled mind.

[–] butaneggbert 10 years ago

Yeah, so - how did you like the movie?

Oh wait - you didn't see the movie that this board exists to discuss, huh.

Okay then.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] remembervhs 10 years ago

I think your worldview is a little simplistic.

[–] nginx 10 years ago

I am pro-abortion and at the same time pro-death penalty as well. So what you're saying is not always true.

I understand you are taking the moral high ground with your anti-abortion stance but we have to face the ground reality as well. What kind of life do you think an unwanted child will have? They are often given up for adoption or sent to child care homes where they are left to rot. Their entire childhood is wasted, many take the path of crime, all because the mother decided to carry on with the unwanted pregnancy. Is this preferable to killing an unborn at a stage when its nothing more than a fertilized egg?

If you're so anti-abortion, it equally makes sense to not eat meat and basically not bring harm to anything living & breathing and that includes the creepy crawly insects as well. Do you abide by this principle? I can confidently say most anti-abortion people don't.

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither ~ B. Franklin

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] nginx 10 years ago

When you give life to a child, you're already playing god with life. So why not play god with death as well? You have never heard of a ethically consistent and morally reasonable justification for abortion because you are closed off to the idea that any justification on this front can ever be reasonable.

If a woman has full authority to bring a life to this world, she also must have full authority to take that life away atleast when its still unborn. If you don't believe in this stance, then you might as well make it mandatory for everyone to take permission from the government before giving birth.

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither ~ B. Franklin

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] patrick_bateman_90029 10 years ago

And what about the other side? Where are they AFTER the fetus becomes a living human being? :the only mention of politics I'll make in these comments:

I honestly don't have a definitive side regarding abortion because, let's face it, it's as grey an area as a great deal of life is. Should some girl be allowed an abortion just because she's fast and loose with every guy who flashes her a smile? No. I believe there should be some responsibility from both parties in this event. Maybe help out some childless couple who would really like to be parents (although maybe it'd be nice of said theoretical parents to help out the orphans looking for nice homes)? But what about the women who have survived rape and incest or in danger of losing their lives because of their pregnancies? Why should they be forced to carry to term a lifelong reminder of the traumas that they've had to endure? I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like for the mother OR the child to realize their existence is because of a forced violation of the mother.

"Obvious Child" is the second film I've seen on abortion this year, the first being the director's cut of "Nymph()maniac". Both of them put a very human face to the abortion dilemma happening today (and in the case of "Nymph()maniac", a very harrowing, blunt and graphic depiction of how the procedure is performed by the main character in her own apartment after her psychiatrist won't sign off the procedure). Speaking as a man who would eventually like to have children one day (but not at this point because I'm struggling with my career and know the last thing I need is to bring a life into it when it'll be impossible for me or my partner to give him/her the proper care and love they deserve), what a woman does with the fetus in her should be up to her because it's ultimately her. It's physically impossible for us as men to understand what a woman's going through during those months. Now, again, not saying ALL women who want an abortion are necessarily in need of one, but pregnancy and what leads to it is a messy and complex situation that requires a lot of thought.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on this matter. I really enjoyed the film because it was nice to see a well rounded female protagonist that says a lot, both positive and negative, about the modern generation of women who aren't the overrated human walrus known as Lena Dunham.

[–] melissaped523 10 years ago

This is stupid. The government has no right to force a woman to be an incubator against their own will. If there is a person who needs a kidney and they will die and in the next room contains a fresh dead body with a perfectly working kidney, but that person wasn't an organ donor, they legally cannot take that person's kidney with out their consent. Making abortion illegal gives more rights to fetuses than actual people and gives more rights to dead people than to pregnant ones.

Bodily autonomy, have you heard of it? Each woman has the right to control what happens in her body.

Of course the fetus/zygote is """"innocent"""" that doesn't mean it's rights stomp all over the mother's. It's only innocent because it can't think feel, act, it's not even conscious, or aware that it's alive.

I would have an abortion if I were to get pregnant. I am an atheist, a liberal and pro choice. I don't care about "killing an innocent child" because I don't believe in a soul or believe that "children are a gift from god." People are just people, and they result from sex. If I don't want to have a child (which I don't) I am not going to let my uterus dictate my future if my birth control fails. I simply do not care if you all have these wonderful family values "how could you do that to YOUR child!!!" because I don't want a child, and doctors won't tie my tubes because I don't already have one. Different people have different values and opinions on the world. You can't force me to believe the same thing as you.

My life my decision. If all you judgmental people don't like it, tough. It's my right.

[–] 10 years ago

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