First let me start by saying that this isn't a debate about women having the right or not to have an abortion...they have that right and that's that.
I appreciate what I perceive to be your
philosophical position on a woman's right to bodily autonomy, but when it comes to their
legal right, that is
very much up for
debate at this time in the US court system. I'm wondering why you are either unaware of, or ignoring this fact in order to rush to your argument.
(I'm not in favor or against it, in reality this is a tough topic and a tough debate. I mean on one side it's true that no one has a right to tell a man or woman what to do or don't do to their bodies, on the other side it's true that we are talking about a human coming into this world so don't they have rights?).
I thought you said that this wasn't a debate about women having the right or not to have an abortion? The above quote contains talking points that are central to that debate.
This is about men having the right to decide their future just like women do.
In a biological arrangement where women are left holding the bag no matter what men decide they feel like doing, I think women deserve just a little more space on the legal teeter-totter; don't you?
When a woman finds out she is pregnant, society is trying to tell men that they should just let the woman decide and just be there to support her on whatever decision she makes (kind of like in 'Knocked Up', when Seth Rogan's character said he'll be there no matter what she decides and people say that's so sweet and cute).
Because it's a fantasy. I hope you are never in a situation where you have to make a real-world decision that may (or may not) be very difficult and painful for you and your partner. Nevertheless, as a man, you have the option to skate at any time, regardless of what anyone may call you. Women absolutely, positively, cannot walk away from a pregnancy, in that they must deal with it, one way or the other, and btw, if you continue to sit on the sidelines of this "debate", the law is eventually going to ensure that, in the case of unintended pregnancy, men such as yourself become fathers no matter what the woman
OR you has to say about it.
If the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't, it's her body so he can't tell her to have it, I agree. But if the man says he can't be a father now, that he doesn't have his life in order or whatever, and the woman has the baby the guy HAS to be there or pay child support with no questions asked.
This is why I previously said that men have to be more proactive in managing their own fertility. That is in no way a "put-down"; I am urging men to take control of their family planning in order to have that say in their destinies.
How can society tell a man he has to be the father and pay up even if he doesn't want to (how can society give women options and based on what the woman decides, that will determine the man's future without his say?) yet if a woman doesn't want to pay or take care of her child, before or after the baby is born, society accepts it? If a man doesn't pay child support he is a deadbeat dad, if a woman leaves a baby at the police station we applaud her bravery!
It is devastating to women when they relinquish a child they have birthed. And if a woman leaves her baby at a police station, the father of the child is not required to pay for the baby's care, and if lack of support is the reason for the woman surrendering the child, should we "applaud" him? The only thing I'm "applauding" is the Safe Haven Laws (there are also temporary surrender laws).
Outside of family planning clinics, there are people gathered who scream obscenities into women's faces and try to prevent their entry, regardless of whether or not her visit is pregnancy-related. In real life, women with unplanned pregnancies are probably the least-applauded persons you could name. And after an abortion, the number one emotion women report feeling is relief; it is society that tells her she is to be ashamed and silent about her decision.
Forget the argument where some women say 'you just don't get it, you don't get what we have to go through to have a baby', but this isn't about that.
I cannot, and will not, just
forget what women tell me about their experiences, because they are experts in their own lives, and what they tell me then, is primarily and continually relevant in how I form an opinion about abortion. As a man, you have the luxury of "forgetting" or ignoring women's input at your own will - but that automatically makes your argument irrelevant, because you've erased the very same people you're talking about. Their perspective is imperative, and they are silenced quite enough in society already.
Yes you have the right to not have the baby, as you should, and you have to carry it for nine months but men are being forced to pay child support (without a trial, they even get locked up if they don't pay) even if they never wanted to be a father to begin with (even if women trick guys into getting them pregnant men still have to pay!)!
It's ten months, btw; that nine months thing is calculated by doctors to make it more convenient for them. It sounds like you're more supportive of a woman's right to obtain an abortion than you are of men becoming fathers against their will. Again, men who are concerned about this must be proactive in their family planning. And if a man is concerned about being "tricked" into fatherhood, this is called "reproductive coercion", which is also carried out by men, yet you seem to choose to believe that it is only women who do the "tricking". Your pursuit of "making things equal" needs some additional information to render it effective.
When a man says he didn't want to be a father the response most of the time is 'well you knew what you were getting into when you had sex with her'. How is this fair/equality? If you could tell a man this can't you then say to a woman that she can't have an abortion since "she knew what she was getting into when she opened her legs"?
This dismissive attitude is not applied equally to both men and women, particularly when a woman seeks to terminate a pregnancy. I can tell you, I have empathy for any person who has parenthood imposed on them against their will. It is not those "baddie women" who are out to make you fathers; it is a combination of legal maneouvers; the social over-glorification of parenting as the "highest pursuit"; women's lack of value/status except as pertains to motherhood; abstinence-only programs; lack of access to contraception; outright faulty contraception; and men's lack of effective proactiveness in controlling their own fertility, to name just a few factors, that result in both men and women having to face unplanned pregnancy.
Outrageous of course! (Of course I'm talking about 99percent of abortions where it's consensual sex between a man and a woman and not rape, incest or any other horrible cases).
There are politicians who are at this moment attacking the rape and incest exemption laws. Things are more serious than you appear to be aware of. (ETA: The successful removal of rape and incest exemption laws has very grave implications for the continueed legal access to the rest of the "99% of abortions where it's consensual".)
Here's how to make things equal and fair between women and men in these cases:
The current law in the US is that a woman can have an abortion up until 5 months into the pregnancy (I believe) and once she has the baby, and if she doesn't want it, she can leave it at any police station, fire department, etc with no questions asked. To make things equal between men and women, there should be a law where men get the 5 months to tell the girl he got pregnant if he will be the father or if he doesn't want to (he can't tell her to have it or not, he just has to decide if he will be there as the father or not), this way a man's future isn't determined by the woman's decision just like a man can't determine a woman's future. This way men have the same rights to decide as a woman does and we can be closer to equality.
A man may already sign away all of his legal rights to access to a resulting child.
Meanwhile, some women are wrangling in the courts to prevent their rapists from having access to the child they bore as a result of their rape. And some of them are losing their petitions to prevent their rapists from continuing to be in their lives. Should we respect a rapist's right to "determine his future"? I know you have chosen to ignore this aspect as well, but these kinds of things are happening, unbelievable as they may seem. And the fact that they ARE happening is indicative that things are FAR from equal; very far. Again, if your priority is to avoid being a father, then you simply **must** take control and responsibility for your own fertility, and stop focusing on passing more laws that further erode a woman's right to determine her own future.
What do people think?
(I know it sounds harsh, people will say men know when they have sex the consequences of it and so on and so forth but so do women...you can't say women can do what they want then have options on the consequences and at the same time men have to pay for their actions without any options...and this ain't the so-called past where people get married then have kids and they decide as a couple, or at least according to the laws, it's a whole new world and you can't claim to be fighting for equality and at the same time tell men they have no choice).
People will look at this, and then go right back to saying "she shouldn't have spread her legs" - the way they've always said. If men want to have a say in their family planning, then they have to manage their own fertility. That's the way you make things equal.
By the way: I did like this film, 3 stars out of four and people should see it (glad when independent filmmakers get their films out their).
I've never seen anything like this film. Raw yet elegant.
Spoiler Alert:
Though I was a bit taken aback on how happy they both seemed to be after the abortion happened...it's just me maybe but I would be thinking about that child who I'd never know.
As I mentioned, many people experience relief as the primary emotion after an abortion. Perhaps you were taken aback at least partially because that fact is rarely mentioned in mainstream portrayals of abortion. It's about time we were given the chance to see abortion in a different light than the doom/shame/end-of-the-world portrayals.
And I hear you when you say you'd be "thinking about that child...etc". We all make decisions that affect our life trajectory, and "what would have been" scenarios are a part of how we contemplate our lives. Even parents may play the "what if I hadn't?" game.
**Have an A1 day**
ETA: I have had a lifelong interest in embryology...and when I took up a law class, I took a special interest in law as it pertains to reproductive rights. I don't just see this as idle chit-chat ;)
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