Who did more damage JJ or Rian?

While the fans and their reactions were a contributing factor to the writers and producers decisions; the fans did not write and shot these films. That was JJ and Rian that did that. So of them which did more harm?

Since Lucas's story treatments were tossed, I think the 2nd view is the only one that is valid.

Your breakdown of what went into the motivation behind the decisions is fairly likely and we see the results. You can't corporate produce art and STar Wars was art.

Abrams definitely now has the edge on influence now; but as of the release of TLJ it was 100% equal. Abrams in TFA only cared about doing his 'love letter' to ANH and fill it with his brand of fast paced mindless action, visual imagery mimicking, and riddled with empty mystery boxes. When tasked with actually filling those mystery boxes he first told Rian to do whatever he wanted and then when he had to fix it himself you see what he did with TROS.

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tribute to the original trilogy to make it exciting and absorbing in a manner which he feels was effective. In the first film he dutifully presents new characters as the youthful heroes and villains who seem to owe their experiences to the heritage of older characters that were once young themselves and from a time rather long ago. The presence of the new characters promote courage and social diversity but the message is symbolically delivered more than literally conveyed in speeches or dialogue, so the audience are made aware of the themes on some level (in this way the socially positive messages are marketed to reflect the values of Disney and perhaps as a response to the perceived values of the audience being targeted).

Here Abrams vision of Star Wars is of a frenetic battle where the characters are kept on their toes as they move from one challenge to another. They are people under pressure and there is no time really to talk or relax. One might ask where is the Force in all of this, where is the "spiritual" feel or tone? It's there somewhere but what's more important is the action sequences which are often impressive. It is hard to see how the characters are really established in this film, we just know what they are meant to represent - inheritors of tasks from characters who are their archetypal matches, ie. Luke, Leia, and Han. The appearances of these classic Star Wars characters is a little lacklustre - they seem tired and really have limited roles to play in the story - they are there as theme brand recognition and fan service.

The first film has its good points but it obviously is seeking acceptance from the audience as being genuine, true and authentic without necessarily being creatively engaging - there is too much borrowing from specific aspects of the original films. He wanted to "freshen" the old by adding new droids and new humans but with the benefit of a template that reinterprets scenes with great similarity from the old

Snoke had no set up; there was no backstory. He was a carbon copy of the Emperor but had no plausible explanation for even existing in the first place. If I got handed that mess to sort out I would just kill the character too and try to move on to something else. Snoke got replaced with nothing because he was a nothing charcter to begin with. He was a stand in for the emperor and when JJ got tasked to fix his existance he actually did make him a stand in the for the ACTUAL emperor. That is on JJ, not Rian.

What explanation would Rian provide for why Luke was absent for years while Snoke and his former apprentice/nephew inflicted unimaginable harm on the galaxy? There was never going to be a good answer to this.

Phasma should have been dead after TFA; and she was even more of an empty character than Boba Fett.

I can't imagine trying to write my way out of the empty, completely implausible set up that TFA was.

What was the biggest criticism TFA got almost unanimously? It was unoriginal and relied too much on nostalgia. So what is Rian supposed to do with the next film? more unoriginal and rely on nostalgia? The guy was boxed into a corner and said 'f' it I am taking this franchise down with me'. I blame TFA for being so implausible and open ended that Rian had the narrative ability to do whatever he wanted to fill in the gaps.

TFA was not an introduction it was a film not a preamble. and it was was not an into either , it was a reset to a pre- ANH universe. . "doesn't do any major damage"? seriously? Han a dead beat dad regresses back to being a smuggler? First Order and Snoke being the same as the emperor (thus undermining the victory of ANH)? Luke running away? Rey turning the force into a marvel like super power that one just has and doesn't have to 'learn". Seriously the damage was done by the time Rian go there. You can say that he just put it out of its misery.

Exactly. The damage was done already and JJ had FAR more liberty to craft his characters and story. Rian had to get the broken pieces that JJ created and try to make a story out of it. Now Rian took those pieces and figuratively burned them to ash, but IMO opinion the one more at fault for that is JJ.

It is like you have a violent assault that leaves a victim in pain suffering and bleeding out. A really crappy paramedic comes along and decides to start amputating limbs to avoid gangrene. Who gets the more severe charge in this case?

I gotta tell ya', 5 was pretty damn exciting in the theater back in the day - I was only 14, so the perfect target audience.

I don't know, JJ ruined Han at least as much as Rian ruined Luke; IMO. With Luke being ruined I also put that on JJ for having the "Luke has vanished" plot in the first place. He was ruined the moment he went missing without a planned reason for it. They needed to have a 100% acceptable reason for why Luke would run away, and they didn't. That is 100% on JJ not Rian. Rian had to try to figure out the reason Luke would run away and he should not have had to figure that out in the first place.

Really, you take more issue with Midichlorians than JJ bringing back the emperor thus effectively undoing Vader's entire redemption and the OT's entire plot. Come on man, you have got to be blinded by your hate of the PT to see it that way. Midichlorians were annoying because they were trying to quantify force potential (like an IQ test). That does not undermine the mysticism of the force. What undermines the mysticism is turning it into a 'marvel' like super power and having an untrained person just pull mind trick out of their ass and out force a trained user. Rey hurt the series far more than Midichlorians did.

While I agree with you that Kennedy is arguably the person most at fault for managing the IP so incredibly disastrously. I wanted to narrow it down to the actual writers/directors that people blamed more. The way I see it is she had these boxes she wanted checked but it was on the writers/directors to get those items she wanted in but still in a story satisfying way; which they both failed out, and in my opinion JJ was the worse of the 2.

Now that is based on my assumption that Kennedy had little to do with the actual story portion of each film. From appearances she did not seem to care what the story did so long as her agenda was fulfilled. But I might be wrong, she might have ben the one to put crazy criteria in there such as Rey being super overpowered, never losing any fight or battle, never facing any real consequences, and not taking any help or training from a male character. If I was being cynical I would assume all that came from her. But actually I think that Rey is JJ's wish fulfillment character that just happens to be female because Kennedy wanted a female lead.

Yeah if people did not feel that JJ was the bigger offender after TFA they definitely should after TROS. Bringing back the emperor completely undermines the entirety of the OT and renders it pointless. If people actually love the OT there is no justification that is acceptable to not be outraged by this.

Yes, that is how I felt too. Snoke was just a stand in for the emperor and was a cardboard cut out. It was a stupid character to begin with. Then since Rian was 'bold' enough to just kill him off unceremoniously, it forced JJ to remove the cardboard cut out and just present the 'real' emperor; which is what he was doing in all but name in the first place. This all a failing on JJ's part for not having an actual plan for Snoke and just making a carbon copy Emperor.