MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Thanks to Bubbathegut: Luke is a huge Ga...

Thanks to Bubbathegut: Luke is a huge Gary Stu, and it's apparently completely allowed.

posted 7 years ago by Frogarama (12942)
28 replies | jump to latest

I wouldn't have ever bothered posting this, but Bubba threw down the gauntlet and he made me realize just how huge of a Gary Stu we have in Luke. I don't even have to mix in a few dishonest and completely incorrect points in order to make my case, like Bubba did.

-Leia cares so much about comforting poor Luke over missing Ben, a man he knew for a day or maybe two, that she doesn't even care to mourn her entire dead family and the genocide of the planet she called home. Let's not forget that Leia only just met Luke, too!

-An old Jedi Master lays down his life just so Luke won't SLOW DOWN! He didn't sacrifice himself to save lives, he literally did it so Luke would leave.

-Luke gets to be promoted to pilot over other experienced Rebels even though he'd never flown an X-Wing. No one has even seen him fly ANYTHING at all! It doesn't matter because everyone just KNOWS that Luke is the all-important one!

-Luke puts the lives of the entire Rebellion at risk by turning off his targeting computer just to try out this new Force thing he heard about recently.

Luke gets to be the big ultimate hero just because he's Luke and he has magical powers.

Yeah, it's Star Wars, it's fantasy. The main character is literally magical. I get that, some people don't. Some people take it too seriously and start bashing female characters like crazy because they have an agenda (and yes, I mean more female characters than just Rey).

Don't blame me for trying to talk sense. The only thing needed for evil to flourish is for good people to remain silent.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

I'm only sticking with New Hope up there. We won't get into Luke's minimal Force training, beating Vader even though he never got lightsaber training AT ALL and Vader had been fighting with sabers longer than Luke had been alive, we won't mention that Luke somehow just "knew" in the beginning of ESB that he could do telekinesis even though he'd never seen it done, had never learned it, and had no way of knowing it was even possible through the Force. All he knew of the Force at that point was predicting laser blasts from a taser ball without using his eyes, and getting super aiming skills (again, all with no actual training, Ben simply urged him to do these things).

[–] castilvenia (33) 7 years ago

luke dident beat vader in empire strikes back you hack. he was beaten easly. he did trained with the light saber alot before return of the jedi. rey had not holded a lightsaber in her life and she beat kylo ren like nothing when he was well trained in it

[–] Bubbathegut (18242) 7 years ago

Froggy is immune to the facts of SW. Like what kind of training did Rey receive in between TFA and TLJ? The answer is none.

[–] Bubbathegut (18242) 7 years ago

How did I miss this gem of a thread? You know Froggy all I really do is state the facts of the movies nothing more nothing less. You just say random stuff that happened in SW movies and hope no one notices it.

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

-"Leia cares so much about poor Luke missing Ben, a man he knew for a day or maybe two, that she doesn't even care to mourn her entire dead family and the genocide of the planet she called home."

Caring for Luke doesn't mean she didn't mourned her family. She's an empathic character that cares for Luke even when she has her own tragedy. In "A New Hope" Luke is still a spoiled and selfish character, far from the Jedi knight he will become in the third movie, where he sacrifices himself to save his father.

-"An old Jedi Master lays down his life just so Luke won't SLOW DOWN! He didn't sacrifice himself to save lives, he literally did it so Luke would leave".

Obi sacrificed himself to save the whole group, that was about to be captured. Not to say the Death Star plans.

-"Luke gets to be promoted to pilot over other experienced Rebels even though he'd never flown an X-Wing. It doesn't matter because everyone just KNOWS that Luke is the all-important one!"

Not everybody. Biggs knew, and it was him who recommended him.

-"Luke puts the lives of the entire Rebellion at risk by turning off his targeting computer just to try out this new Force thing he heard about recently"

That "new thing" had allowed him to deflect lasers while being blindfolded. Not to say the targeting computer had failed several times before he tried that "new thing".

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

And Biggs for anyone in the know would have been a rookie himself seeing how he had just graduated from the imperial Academy before he defected to the rebels at the beginning of New Hope.

So considering the time scale of the film Biggs would have been almost as been untested in the rebels eyes as Luke was and yet you are saying Biggs' recommendation is all it took? Please.

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

Rebels were in need of fighters, if you could fly and someone said you could fly...that would probably be sufficient given the circumstances. Now if this were to happen in the Empire that would make a lot less sense, but in a rag tag force in desperate need of personnel? no there is really nothing exceptional about him being chosen to pilot. The Rebels had to make do with what they had on hand.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Really? That is why people who have a pilot licenses are just given the 'keys' to F16 and don't have to go through training in not just flying but navigation, flying in formation, combat tactics, communication etc etc.

Desperation or not the guy, who's experience is vouched for by a rookie and talks about how his target experience was hitting rats, would be a liability in a combat situation.

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

His level of flying is not fully fleshed out but we were not given information that said he could not fly an Xwing and in a universe that flying high speed craft is far more common a skill than it is for our world..and given the dire circumstances..yes it is possibly that they chose need over days and weeks of extra training they did not have time for...since they would be dead by then. You are reaching for this criticism.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

No I am not sweetie and you know it with the...we were not given the information that said he could not fly an Xwing.

Because sure, Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen were likely to have built Luke an X wing simulator on the moisture farm just to keep him at home. But even if they did it still doesn't explain why he is allowed to fly in the battle. Luke at that point would be more dangerous to the rebels in an X Wing than the Empire. He didn't know how they flew, their tactics, their codes etc etc.

Desperate or not they had enough for a couple of squadrons of x wings and a squadron of Y wings if I remember correctly. Having a complete novice (vouched for or not) puts those guys in danger as he is as likely to fly into them as much as take out tie fighters if he doesn't get his positioning right and those skills don't just happen no matter how good a pilot you are.

Luke in an X wing at the end of New Hope is actually less explainable than Rey's expertise with a light sabre. We saw her with a staff weapon, she seemed more than competent with it, basically they are saying that is why she is capable with a light sabre which is a totally different weapon, granted. But her picking it up and swinging it doesn't actually depend on anyone else but her picking the thing up.

Luke in an X wing however depends on an experienced Rebel officer running a flight deck going 'here your pal vouched for you, have a major piece of equipment and fly tight formation with people you don't know in a deadly battle where everyone has to be very precise and work as a team or we are all dead and the Galaxy is Fucked. Your experience in hitting small targets is taking out vermin at your leisure?....Sure that is so like combat with highly trained fighter pilots after you and other people who we need you to cover if they get a run at the trench'

Force powered or not, that scene would be stupid and is only explainable in terms that Luke had to be the one to make the shot as he was the anointed one and the saviour of the Galaxy. Just like Rey is in the new trilogy

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

Human history is filled with rebel groups doing this sort of thing taking people with limited or no experience and putting them in positions no proper military would because you have too. It is a roll of the dice, you are taking a chance. It can backfire, it could hurt you worse if it goes wrong. While they try to run things like a proper military, they are not they have to make do. But the movie proved they needed the pilots, they were getting slaughtered, there is a reason Luke was the one left to take the shot..outside of the script ;). Hell you are assuming the pilots here are all specially trained and Luke is the unusual one..it could be just the commanders, Wedge and Biggs that had formal combat training and everyone else is similar to Luke...pilots but not combat pilots. He was preparing to go to the academy it is again not beyond reason he was already somewhat familiar with some of the things he needed to do while its not practical experience it wouldn't be entirely foreign either. Its a Rebellion not a fully funded legitimate government military force with large training academies to fill its ranks, you take what you can get.

So no, its not a leap for a talent starved, pilot needy soon to be wiped out rebel group would allow a pilot, to pilot one of their Xwings they need to make this suicidal run. You have to take it from the perspective of a rebel group,a group constantly taking chances and making ill-advised choices.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

I am taking it from the perspective of the rebels and everything you have just put also justifies Rey's abilities.

If Luke isn't a Gary Stu in your mind, neither is Rey. If Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is a Gary Stu because those rebel groups in human history tend to turn the tide of battle by forcing a greater force to fight on their terms.

Vietnam was guerrilla tactics against an infantry army, Picts against Rome, same thing. Russia against Napolean let the Winter do the fighting for them while ensuring the french has no way to resupply. Russia against the Nazi's, fight them in a city and throw men at it until Germany gives up. etc etc.

The Battle of Yavin, that battle was a dog fight between two groups using similar tactics. Novices would just be more dangerous than helpful in that sort of fight.

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

Because sure, Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen were likely to have built Luke an X wing simulator on the moisture farm just to keep him at home. But even if they did it still doesn't explain why he is allowed to fly in the battle.

From http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Biggs_Darklighter

"Biggs Darklighter, a human male, grew up on the desert world of Tatooine, where he became close friends with Luke Skywalker. The two both became pilots, and often flew through Beggar's Canyon.[3]"

Most of the footage regarding Luke's friends in Tatooine and their experience as pilots was eliminated in the cutting room, but it was originally in the first act from A New Hope. There's still one scene in the the third act, though, to refer the fact that Luke was ALREADY a very good pilot.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

And where is explained that he knew rebel flying tactics, communications and the inside of an X Wing? Because an X Wing is so like the ships Luke flew in Tatoinne's atmosphere.

None of the footage with Biggs gives any indication of Luke knowing any of that. Also flying Beggar's Canyon is not the same as getting in an X Wing in the middle of battle with not only tight flying but also large explosions going off all around you.

Biggs can vouch that Luke is a good pilot but he can't vouch that Luke can cope in a combat situation in a piece of equipment that could be just as dangerous to those on his side as the enemy. Especially as Luke's experience with Biggs is flight in an atmosphere. Nothing you have posted shows Luke was a great pilot in space - two very different environments.

Biggs vouching for Luke and Luke getting is like, 'my friend has had no military training and I have no idea how he really does when shot at but we have a big battle and he is the best truck driver ever and a good shot when we get drunk and shoot at critters in his back yard can he have a tank please.'

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

And was exactly so special about the X-Wings? They basically maneuver and shot lasers pew-pew-pew. And that's all. Fighters are basically like WW1 biplanes flying and shooting the machine gun, only in space and with lasers instead of machine guns. Star Wars is Space Opera, not hard scifi.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

You been in one to say that?

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

You been in one to say that?

Ok, and now I suppose I should explain the difference between reality and science-fiction.

But... who cares? Yeap, i have been in one. And I was having some beers last week with Lando in Tatooine :DDD

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

you were the one that said it was easy to use and compared it to something in reality as a way to say the Luke wasn't a Gary Stu.

So don't be surprised if I give you a sarky response. And Lando on Tatooine? Slumming it isn't he.

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

Nope. I said that they're like old war planes, that just flied and shot, where the skill of the pilot and the hours of flight is far more important than having a good knowledge about the technological gadgets from some specific model (like modern fighters). Space Opera is based on Pulp, and Pulp was based in the technology and warfare from the early XXth century.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

thankyou so much for the BS explanation but it also proves my point.

Please watch the whole thing because Rik Mayall is sorely missed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UlaAHdcRMg

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

My problem with his argument is he seems to expect the rebellion to function like the Empire, who has a wealth of trained pilots and resources thus can obviously refuse a non combat pilot and not like a group of fighters with limited resources and in need of anyone that can fly while a moon sized base is about to blow them to smithereens.

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

If the rebellion is fighting like the empire then it needs trained pilots and there is more to being a trained fighter pilot than just instinctive flight skills. Tactics, understanding how the squadron flies, strengths and weaknesses of those flying with you. If the rebellion was acting like guerrilla outfight and Luke was walking into the Death Star control room with a bomb strapped to him I'd say fine.

One requires more than simple instinctive skill and the other well just needs Luke to understand he's on a suicide mission like those in Rogue one knew they were going on a one way trip.

[–] kuku (3510) 7 years ago

Yeap, the rebellion was more like a group of partisans using any skill they could get.

Of course, it can be argued that the rebellion was likely to have more good pilots than xwings... but it could have been otherwise, since there were not an established army, their forces could be extremely unbalanced. Having far more mechanics than they needed and lacking pilots, for example.

Indeed, the Last Jedi is a perfect example of that unbalance: they place the Admiral Gender Studies at the top of the rank, showing that they have an alarming lack of leaders with brain cells in the head instead of purple hairs ^_^

[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Poe should so have be in the brig rather than walking around because really and be objective tell me what would have been the result of Holdo's plan if Poe hadn't gotten it into his head to send Rose and Finn off without telling Holdo.

Holdo's plan would have continued and the First order wouldn't have known to look for the transports.

What if Poe had told Holdo?

Well seeing how it was Canto Bight that Finn and Rose were going to and DJ showed the people there traded with both the first order and the resistance, Finn and Rose might not have even needed to go. Holdo might have been able to get the hacker with the plum bloom to meet them as she would have had contacts already at Canto Bight. But we don't know as Poe never told her until he was already planning his mutiny and she didn't have time to change her plan.

What if he hadn't openly discussed Holdo's actions with Finn when Finn hadn't bothered to secure the control room that he and Rose were in because DJ didn't need to listen in to that call.

Oh....the result the FIRST ORDER WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN TO LOOK FOR THE TRANSPORTS, THEY WOULD HAVE KEPT FOLLOWING HOLDO IN THE CRUISER AND NOT GONE TO CRAIT.

Hell what if Poe had followed Leia's orders and aborted the bombing run?

Well the First order would have had a damaged drednought but the would have had a bombing squadron which might have given them a sodding force to push back the first order when they realised they were tracking them through hyperspace and given the resistance fleet more time.

Basically if Poe had shared with his commanding officer or followed orders less of the resistance would have died. That isn't gender studies that is deconstructing the trope of renegade has a plan and it always saves the day. Poe, Finn and Rose's fly by the seat of their pants got more killed than necessary.

[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 7 years ago

Why did no one EVER criticize Luke Skywalker as being a Gary Stu from 1977 – 2015? There’s not one single mention of him being an idealized and seemingly perfect character in the many magazine reviews, fanzines or on the internet. Not one bad comment about Luke other than Mark Hamill's acting as Luke which was criticized by a few in the 70's.

In nearly FORTY YEARS no one mentioned Luke being a Gary Stu, not one person, until in 2015 fans of Rey got hurt feelings when it became apparent that she had very much in common with the traits of being a Mary Sue.

Her fanboys hit back with venomous spite attacking the hero of the original movie now claiming he too to be a Mary Sue (Gary Stu).

Such rabid fanboys I assumed to be new fans to Star Wars, young teens or guys in their twenties with an unhealthy infatuation of Daisy Ridley and little affection or connection to the original trilogy, for it seems irrational to attack your own original hero of the saga so spitefully otherwise.

No offence Froggy but I really don’t get your obsession over this by attacking Luke all the time, you’re a forty year old man, so I guess you grew up with and loved the original movies, so it seems odd to me that you attack Luke every time just to defend Rey.

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

He seems to be one of those people that believe the core complaint has to do with Rey being a woman. Because of that JJ Abrams could say he wrote the character to be a Mary Sue and Frog would still argue the point with him. You can't win an argument with a person that believes something that is not true for the majority of people that take issue with Rey when that belief has nothing to do with the facts or arguments but on the feeling that to criticize Rey must come from being sexist or if the argument is made by a woman internalized misogyny.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Rey is a Mary Sue.

[–] Quint (959) 7 years ago

I see. So your point is that you have never seen a Star Wars movie. Thanks for making that clear.

ps: Im not such a Star Wars fan. I like other sagas way better (Im surely now will be as much hated as you :) ). But let me tell you, that this was one of the most clueless and braindead postings at a Star Wars thread Ive ever seen. Congratualtion to you! Luke a superhero at Star Wars ..... there are times when even a double facepalm isnt enough :) .