I hate this movie so much. - Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015) Discussion

[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 7 years ago

I agree with you over the Disney ratings but you’re far too generous with Phantom Menace, I’d give it a 4 just for the last twenty minutes, everything else about it sucked, but at least it was original unlike the uninspired SJW Star Wars movies of today.

My ratings are:
1) Empire Strikes Back (10/10)
2) A New Hope (10/10)
3) Revenge of the Sith (8/10)
4) Return of the Jedi (8/10)
5) Attack of the Clones (6/10)
6) The Phantom Menace (4/10)
7) Rogue One (3/10)
8) The Force Awakens (2/10)

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Fair enough, I recognize that TPM has numerous flaws and idiotic moments all over it. I just think that deep down buried underneath all of the kiddie nonsense there is a good story, but if someone doesn't like TPM I am not going to tell them they're wrong, it is a very flawed movie.

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[–] Threadkiller (3075) 7 years ago

Agree for the most part but despite Di$ney bastardizing the franchise like i knew they would, Rogue One wasn't nearly as bad as TFA which was just a hot cup of diarrhea with nostalgia bait sprinkled on top.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Forgotten you have, that anger the path to the Dark Side is!

But if you've actually made a hobby of hating this movie for two years now, you're not on the path, you're inside and having drinks with Palpatine. No, fetching drinks for Palpatine.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I think TFA is fair game as long as we are in the middle of the trilogy. 2 years after episode 9 comes out if we are still bashing it; then yes we are pathetic.

Are we supposed to forgot about all the plot problems that TFA left us with when viewing the next film? If so, that means we are right to judge TFA as a stand alone and nothing in the next one will make up for it. you can't have it both ways. either TFA matters or it doesn't. If it matters the seemingly inconsistent plot must be addressed to a satisfactory level. if it doesn't matter TFA can be judged based on it own merit without consideration to 'fixes' coming later. Either way you argument is invalid.

Is basic logic just null and void in those that like TFA?

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

At this point nobody likes the derivative script, although some find it possible to enjoy some elements of the film in spite of it.

But really, the level of obsessive, frothing, fake-threats-of-violence rage directed at this film and the character of Rey is disturbing. You guys could try, you know, going on with your lives like the rest of the fandom did after the prequels came out, instead of making a hobby of bashing a film. Because really, that kind of anger is not healthy and absolutely leads to the Dark Side.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I think the baseless accusations of sexism at any and all critics of the character Rey and the film in general is equally disturbing.

Also at this point I think my star wars ship is about sailed. I was clinging on but I can see more and more I am the type of fan that is getting left behind, those that actually care about story seem to be a minority now. So Disney will continue to pop out soulless popcorn flicks that pander to nothing but modern cultural pandering mixed with nostalgia and you all will just eat it up until you are fat blotted and as soulless as the marketing garbage you defended for years.

Tragic, but I guess I can still always enjoy the OT and pretend nothing exist outside of that.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I certainly have issues with the TFA script, but liked R1 enough to stay with the franchise. Not because I think they're likely to produce great art, but because fun light entertainment is likely enough... and because MY life is better when I take things in a spirit of enjoyment rather than hatred.

Which is why I'm rethinking my engagement with you lot, BTW. Some you are everything Yoda warned against.

As for originality, that's never been a striking feature of Star Wars, but what really matters is whether you like the finished film. If you don't you don't, and yes, it's absolutely true that Disney isn't catering to the old hardcore fans. Better to find something you like than to rage against things you don't, life is just better that way

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

The OT may have used a lot of cliche and archetypal story elements but it did so in a completely new way with a new setting and combined archetypes in a way no other film had done in the past. So a discussion on originality would require us to be specific about what we view as "originality". ANH borrowed heavily from multiple stories told over hundreds of years and did so in a completely unique setting. I would call this originality but with inspiration from other sources. TFA does not have a unique setting as nearly all are direct (or very similar) copies of planets shown in previous films. All the aesthetics are basically the same to the point were one is wondering if this is actually taking place 30 years removed from the last entry. And the story and plot arch is almost a complete rehash of the plot of ANH, I mean even some parts being nearly frame for frame identical. This goes beyond inspiration and looks more like a lazy reboot marketed as a sequel. Had they made this a reboot instead of episode 7 I likely would not have had as much an issue with the lack of originality because the focus would have been on what they did that was new (as a reboot it would be expected to be similar in story to the original and would not be offensive). It was not a reboot though, it was a sequel and a continuation of a story requires a little more effort on 'what's next' in the story and not moving the story to almost the same position before the original began.

Why is it that defenders think they are the only one's allowed to discuss TFA; seemingly you just want anyone that saw the films negatively will just go away. I don't want you to go away. I want to make compelling arguments and make you realize TFA was not a good film and will be very difficult to follow up.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I wouldn't call ANH strikingly original, it is however, pretty damn perfect. Lucas took tons of cliché elements, and YES, elements of the standard Mary-Sue narrative, and made them fresh and exciting and thrilling, used them better than anyone ever had. So while being derivative is a Star Wars tradition and part of its charm, well, Disney didn't carry it off as well as Lucas had.

And if the anti-haters* are the only ones who are able to discuss anything rationally, then yes, they act like they're the only ones who should be talking. That's how rational people always treat the irrational. I have to tell you, you're being a bit of an exception here.

* Please take a moment to consider the difference between "defenders", which implies more fondness for this film than I think exists, and "anti-haters".

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"and YES, elements of the standard Mary-Sue narrative, "

WTF are you talking about? do you even know what the Mary-Sue narrative is? based on this it seems not. How in the f*** can Luke be a Mary Sue, he has no power and gets belittled, ridiculed and his ass kicked the first 95 minutes of the film and only has one lucky shot that propelled him into greatness. It is a archtype of the standard heroes journey. Not a Mary-Sue narrative.

"And if the anti-haters* are the only ones who are able to discuss anything rationally, then yes, they act like they're the only ones who should be talking. That's how rational people always treat the irrational. I have to tell you, you're being a bit of an exception here."

IN what way is labeling all critics as sexist a rational discussion or counter-argument. Maybe since you don't know what a Mary Sue is perhaps you do not understand what rational means either.

"* Please take a moment to consider the difference between "defenders", which implies more fondness for this film than I think exists, and "anti-haters"."

if that is the case, the pro-TFA crowd is misrepresenting themselves to a hysterical level.

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[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

And then Luke's a full-blown Jedi with full Jedi powers, with absolutely no evidence of further training.

Anyway! Hon, I spent years involved in fan fiction, and know more about Mary-Sues than any sane person should. Like, I know that about 93% of all Mary Sue stories start with some kid being told that their real parents are much more important and glamorous than the clods who raised them, and that they born to some sort of glorious destiny and great power and the fate of the good guys/world/galaxy/universe is in their hands! Sound familiar? I'll give you a hint, the Star Wars film that started that way was NOT "The Force Awakens".

Bye, and enjoy your path to the Dark Side.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I have read the entire original Mary Sue story. this "93% of all Mary Sue stories start with some kid being told that their real parents are much more important and glamorous than the clods who raised them," Doesn't appear in it. I understand the Mary Sue was a satire version of the multiple Fan fics that plagued the Star Trek fandom for years; but Mary Sue is about wish fulfillment and manner in which the character is presented.

"that they born to some sort of glorious destiny and great power and the fate of the good guys/world/galaxy/universe is in their hands! Sound familiar?"

Consider this does not fit Luke Skywalker in at least ANH in the slightest, no it doesn't sound familiar in regards to him.

-Obi-wan does not tell him he has a great destiny, it is only "you must learn the ways of the force, if you are come with me to Alderaan". That is is. He offers to train him because he was friends with Luke's father and realized he had potential. That is vastly different from the universe revolving around him and it being in his hands. You are projecting you narrative to fit your argument. This is not how the story was actually presented though.

-Luke has very little power in ANH and ESB. It is not until the third film does he have any greatness and he had 2 films of failure to earn that. Rey did not earn it.

So yeah your arguments are crap and you are full of it.

Bye, enjoy living in ignorance.

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[–] MissTique (26) 7 years ago

I think you are being too generous by giving TFA a 0. It deserves less! :-)

I personally would put TPM over ATOTC. I feel that with just a little bit of editing, TPM could look amazing. Unfortunately no amount of editing could ever fix TFA.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

The Force Awakens was quite possibly my worst movie theater experience ever. After all of the hype and after hearing how great it was to find out that it was nothing more than a shallow, poorly made, politically correct rehash of A New Hope was a sucker punch to the gut. I think my two most hated movies of all time are The Force Awakens and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

👺👺👖🔥

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I was going to agree with you, Hippo, but then you said you despised Last Crusade MORE than Crystal Skull. You lost all credibility then.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

For the record I don't like either of them, Raiders and Temple are the ones I like.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Remember according to the data Last Crusade is better than Temple of Doom. You may think that but you need to accept reality. That reality is when you measure objective data Crusade beats Temple. Therefore objectively Raiders>>>Crusade>>>Temple. I love doing this to this ass hole. Beware folks this is a dumbass who votes on films before he sees them. Anything which threatens films he loves he will vote them down. Ratings only ever get referenced when it suits him. Notice how when he claims to like Temple better than Crusade data does not get referenced a single time. Then one time someone claimed they liked Batman Begins better than The Dark Knight Rises and then suddenly ratings are the first thing that gets brought up. I wonder why that is?

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Okay what is your objective data for 'rating' of TFA?

here is mine:

Story: 2/10 poorly layered retelling of ANH (with elements of ESB and ROTJ) with lazy nostalgia and incoherent pace.
Character: 0/10 Bland characterization that did not fit the given backgrounds of new characters. Inconsistent or no development. Returning characters poorly fleshed out, returned to pre-ANH personalities without explanation.
Editing: 4/10 Utilized too much CGI and too many scenes at high frame per minute creating messy hard to follow action. Character randomly appearing in plot contrived spots without much focus as to how or why.
Cinematography: 8/10 each individual shot well crafted and utilization of good color schemes throughout.
Setting: 5/10 No originality. All settings were seen before but just with names changed.
Action/Fight Choreography: 9/10 Probably the only truly above average aspect of the film. The action scenes with the exception of a few poorly focused moments was well shot and created a sense of action and tensity effectively.
Music: 6/10 Unimpressive for a star wars film. Music was background noise at best and mostly unnoticed at worse. Nearly making it impossible to appreciate any of the scores within the film itself.
CGI/Special effect: 7/10 About standard for a big budget action movie. Nothing impressive but nothing exceptionally bad.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I am not really big on Star Wars honestly. I simply like to troll Hippo because of how hypocritical he is. Let me ask you a question though. Why should people put more stock in your words than what film critics and the average users? When it is all tallied up the reception for TFA is positive. People act like that if someone likes a film they dislike people who like it owe them an explanation. You're entitled to your opinion you do not owe anyone an explanation on why you dislike it. However if we are going to call it like it is the one who is in the minority is the one that should more than likely do the explaining. Lets be honest though you are married to your ideas and opinions. When that is the case there is no discussion. You know how tired the whole oh it's a remake of a new hope point is? Even if it is true make a more original point for Pete's sake.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Honestly when it comes to popular opinion only time can properly measure it to see if it has any kind of 'staying power'. A film like Star Wars it will take years for the emotion and nostalgia to wear off. If in 5 years time it still holds such a positive opinion I will be surprise.

I am not one of those that expect people to like everything I do or demand a explanation when they like something I don't, what bothers me is them defending the criticisms with poorly thought out arguments that are rather insulting to the critic more than anything. Like trying to write off any criticism of Rey as being sexist in nature. That is just lazy non arguments. I find it annoying.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

So you think the critical reception on metacritic Rottentomatoes in another three years will suddenly dip? I do not see that and if so how much is it going to dip? The prequels were criticized from day one. It got some decent critical reviews but I remember the Phantom Menace being criticized and not that well received the day it came out. People were disappointed but a little in denial. People thought it was a fluke. Then Attack of the Clones happened and it was clear it was no accident.

So no sorry I do not see the opinion TFA dipping at least not too much. I say that as a person who is not even the biggest fan of it.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

It dipped significantly for TPM by the time ATOC came out. If you remember the reviews for TPM were mostly positive fore the first few years.

"The prequels were criticized from day one"

No they did not. You are remembering history wrong. the prequels came out over a 6 years. 1999-2005. It was not until 2002 that TPM started getting regularly viewed negatively. And it was not fully viewed negatively until 2005 when the prequels were complete. The only regular thing that was 'bashed' was the character Anakin.

You even admit yourself, that people "little in denial". I see their reaction to TFA as "hugely in denial" to where they can't even admit it to themselves out of some bizarre subconscious fear of being ostracized from 'civilized' society. I think you are right in that the opinion of TFA will never dip as much because people will never let go of their denial this time.

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[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

I agree that TPM's reputation took a hit after the prequel trilogy was done. People bitched about Jar Jar from the beginning, but it got worse over the years. They also complained about Anakin being overpowered and goofy ("Yippee!") and I think that position hardened when the older Anakin turned out to be such a whiny and almost embarrassing character in II and III.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Yes that was how I remembered it as well. I imagine if TLJ is terrible and is does not bother to try to cover the rather large holes TFA left, the opinion of the ST will be lowered as well. But it, IMO, will never be as disdained as the PT. It just seems that too many people are blinded by ideology and stuck far too much in denial to ever admit it.

Because as I remember it, even though the PT was not initially hated, no one tried to come up with ridiculous insulting defenses of criticism Jar Jar or Kid Annie, like they do with Rey and Finn; who as far as I can tell are every bit as bad (if not worse) as Jar Jar or Annie

Edit: For example no one accused Jar Jar critics of being racist, or accused Annie critics as hating children. Though some did complain about Jar Jar being a stereotype and Annie being too 'kid friendly'.

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[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

The only defense for little Ani was that they literally told us he was The Chosen One, who had a higher midichlorian count than any Jedi including Yoda and was possibly conceived by the Force itself. Everyone panned the midichlorians for what they were -- a ham-handed way to quickly overpower the kid. Now, if Lucas had just stopped with the pod race, it wouldn't have been so bad. But destroying the Federation ship with "oops!" was just too much, even in light of his backstory.

Jar Jar never bothered me as much as he bothered everyone else. In the first half, I actually thought he was kind of funny. I thought the decision to turn what could have been an awesome land battle at the end into a vaudeville act was a huge mistake, but Jar Jar was just the tool used for that purpose.

Similarly (and I've said this elsewhere on this board) I liked Rey as a character, despite the Mary Sue stuff. It's one of the reasons I criticize TFA so harshly -- they ruined a good performance and wasted a lot of audience good will with their cheap power-up shortcuts.

Maybe Last Jedi and Episode IX will be so good that they have the opposite effect of redeeming TFA somewhat. I'm skeptical, but anything is possible.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

With Annie you are obviously right it went over the top with the Federation ship battle. But even in that case he had a lot of help from R2 fixing the ship and helping him with the ship functions he did not know. And annie still never utilized any fully developed force abilities. It never went further than knowledge, intuition and reflexes. Compare that with Rey on her first outing. This is why even the Rey/Anakin comparison is ridiculous.

Jar Jar I just found annoying and rather distracting in a bad way. Too over the top with the attempts at 'funny'.

I did not find Daisey's performance all that good. Mostly odd facial expressions; mouth a gap too often, and too much camera awareness and forced cutie looks. And every action scene was the same look, baring teeth. People don't actually do that in a real fight/battle. I think a lot of the good performance people saw was they were charmed by the actress and were taken in by the posh British accent. And think about how lazy her "cheap power-up shortcuts" were, the film does not even attempt at an explanation like with Anakin's midchlorian counts excuse. TFA gave us absolutely nothing. "A good question, for another time" was the entire film. It is either TFA was the laziest cope out of a film script ever or it was a 2 hour commercial. Either way it is a bad film through and through.

I am skeptical mostly because I can't think of a single scenario in which the problems of TFA can be addressed satisfactorily. Even a good explanation is going to feel tacky now.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

No I actually remember correctly. The opinion definitely lowered over time but Phantom menace was being labeled a letdown even back when it was released. Remember it got a bunch of razzie award nominations. It is just the reception got worse over time. TFA reception is very positive especially if we are judging the reception of when the Phantom Menace came out. Comparing both from day one TFA had a far better reaction. Attack of the Clones was criticized right off the bat. The main reason being it's competition at the time was far superior. That came out the same year as Lord of the Rings the Two Towers and Spider-man. Both of those films were far better made films.

If the Last Jedi is good and by all accounts it is looking like it will be TFA will still be remembered fondly. After all it did restore the people's hope in the series after the disappointing prequel trilogy. You are leaving out a detail. When the Phantom Menace came out it had a huge opening weekend. However the staying power was not that strong. It fell off considerably even though it made a billion dollars.

The sequels never reached as much box office success as the phantom menace. TFA had long lasting legs. It after all is the 3rd highest grossing film ever. Not saying money means quality movie just giving you a perspective. The Last Jedi is on track to be a huge hit also. Nothing is standing in it's way when it is released so it will have legs.

The thing which people enjoyed about TFA was it did not overly rely on cgi and green screen like the prequels did.

So even not a big fan of this I think you are wrong. TFA restored people's like for Star wars in the similar way Batman Begins did for people's love of Batman.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

YEs but the reception to TPM was not bad, it was mostly postive until ATOC came out and it lowered drastically after and even more when ROTS came out. OTher good films being out at the same time had nothing to do with the critical success or lack success for ATOC only the financial success would have been impacted. ATOC got bad rating because it was a bad film after one already bad film. It took 2 for anyone to even admit it.

"If the Last Jedi is good and by all accounts it is looking like it will be TFA will still be remembered fondly."

This is a problem I have, no matter what TLJ does to 'answer the questions' left from TFA it is going to feel tacked on. No genuine argument can ignore that. It is more likely most people are just going to over look it and not care. Which means disney is going to get away with making a movie that is a 2 hour commercial and the people left satisfied.

"It after all is the 3rd highest grossing film ever. "

adjusted for inflation it is not even on the top ten.

"The thing which people enjoyed about TFA was it did not overly rely on cgi and green screen like the prequels did."

TPM had more practical effect than TFA and the entire OT combined. The problem is the cgi was used 'abusively' in some of the wrong places and it made it feel off. It was ambitious for the time but a poor choice in the long run. TFA has way more cgi effects that the entire PT but they are better about hiding it today. CGI use and cinematography techniques have obviously improved in the last 20 years.

The thing that bothers me about TFA "restoring people's like for star wars" is it does not seem genuine. Like people are going along with liking it because they are supposed to. Like some unspoken rule says you have to or something is wrong with you. So most people will not go against peer pressure or even perceived peer pressure. For example; most people will not criticize Rey, even if they did not like the character, because they don't feel like being called sexist.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Yes exactly, I feel like people are just liking it because right now it is the "cool thing" to love TFA and hate the prequels. I looked at TFA objectively and I didn't see anything remotely special about it. I still found flaws with the prequels but I was able to recognize that under some of the nonsense there was a really good story and had many original ideas. I also love the self fullfilling prophecy they did with ROTS however Anakin tried so hard to keep Padme from dying but by trying to prevent it he actually caused it himself (possible homage to Oedipus???)

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Yes the story of the PT was structurally sound but fairly poorly executed. If only Lucas had only drafted the main story and allowed someone else to touch up and direct. How special could they have been. Even with just a few fixes a work arounds and minor changes the films could be measures better.

TFA would need to be redone from scratch to even begin to resemble anything close to a good film.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I completely agree, my main problem with PM as with the rest of the prequels was the complete overreliance on CGI, at times I felt I was watching Space Jam again (cartoon with real actors inserted in), they were still strong films however and needed to be tweaked and I agree Lucas probably shouldn't have directed. TFA is a complete mess on all fronts. The prequels at least felt like Star Wars, TFA feels like some dudes really bad fan fiction.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Well at least we see eye to eye on the TPM being flawed but decent story and TFA being basically an irremediable mess. whatever our disagreement about Dark knight be, this is more important.

because if one can't look at TFA a realize it is bad; I am not sure to what degree I can trust there judgment on anything.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Adjusting for inflation is silly to me. Bottom line it had better legs than the prequel trilogy did. That was the point I was making on that.

Here is the thing why does it bother you what other people do? Okay so lets say you're right. Lets say people are going to willingly let Disney get away with that and look the other way. You are not forced to watch these films. If you do not like the direction it is going stop watching them. That is what I did after the second Pirates of the Carribean film. I barely liked the first and I found the second one to be a bore with an unnecessary over complicated plot.

So you know what I did? I stopped watching them. I could not care less if people want to keep watching that drivel and it makes money.

People will not criticize Rey? On what planet are you living on? I have heard TFA is a remake of a new hope and that Rey is a Mary Sue hundreds of times. You ever consider people get sick and tired of a cliche criticism? Yeah there are people that will call you sexist for criticizing her. You have to consider the other side of the spectrum as well though.

My favorite film of 2015 was Mad Max Fury Road. I have been a Mad Max fan since the 70's. You know what people said well of course you liked it. People like you would like that feminist trash movie. It is the sheep mentality people jump on. Oh this person likes a film I don't so they must fit into this category of person. Or get this drum roll they might just enjoy the film... No lets go with the fact that he is a feminist douche bag yeah that is what it is.

What film is flawless might I ask? Thing is when it comes to films people enjoy they willingly look the other way at any error. When it is a film they dislike not the slightest flaw will be forgiven.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Dude TPM was universally loved for quite a while after its release date. It wasn't until people had time to soak it in that they realized it was weaker than the previous 3.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"Adjusting for inflation is silly to me. Bottom line it had better legs than the prequel trilogy did. That was the point I was making on that. "

No because adjusting for inflation TPM is number 18 all time and ROTS is 68 all time and ATOC is 94 all time. The series has 7 movies all on the top 100 movies of all time. The series has legs no matter what.

"Here is the thing why does it bother you what other people do? Okay so lets say you're right. Lets say people are going to willingly let Disney get away with that and look the other way."

Obviously I am/was a star wars fan. That is likely no longer to be the case. But even if I stopped being a fan does that mean I have no right to criticize the film?

"People will not criticize Rey? On what planet are you living on."

oh so now it is twisted back and Rey is not a popular and beloved character. I love how you defenders just pick a position that suits whatever point you are currently making and forget the other 20 things you said. I thought Rey was a popular and loved character and the critics represent only a tiny fringe toxic insecure man children afraid of a female lead. Now you are saying she is constant criticized by a majority.

I also like 2015 Mad Max Fury Road and thought Furiousa was a great character, because I do not care about a character's sex, only if they are written well. Furiousa was, Rey was not (Mary Sue is not a sexist trope it is gender neutral and fits Rey almost perfectly so it is not a cliche criticism it is a applicable title)

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

The series will always have legs that was not the point I made. The point I made was that the Phantom Menace had the strongest legs. As evident in the fact it made the most money. You missed my point on that entirely.

Obviously I am/was a star wars fan. That is likely no longer to be the case. But even if I stopped being a fan does that mean I have no right to criticize the film?

Never said you did not have a right to criticize. I just think it is dumb because as I said you act is if people owe you an explanation. Not to mention your critiques are not new I hate to break it to you.

oh so now it is twisted back and Rey is not a popular and beloved character. I love how you defenders just pick a position that suits whatever point you are currently making and forget the other 20 things you said. I thought Rey was a popular and loved character and the critics represent only a tiny fringe toxic insecure man children afraid of a female lead. Now you are saying she is constant criticized by a majority.

Also not true. Did I ever say the majority criticized her? I simply said on what planet are you living on? Her being criticized has happened by a lot of people not the majority but a lot of people. The people who criticize her are very vocal. Mary Sue thing is just as tired as a new hope remake.

I also like 2015 Mad Max Fury Road and thought Furiousa was a great character, because I do not care about a character's sex, only if they are written well. Furiousa was, Rey was not (Mary Sue is not a sexist trope it is gender neutral and fits Rey almost perfectly so it is not a cliche criticism it is a applicable title)

I thought Furiosa was better than Rey as well. Thing is though when I voiced my like of that film people called me a feminist douche bag who is sexist. That film got called a feminist trash film. Do not act like everyone plays nice on the other side pal. I openly admitted yeah there are people that will call you sexist if you criticize a female character. Now admit that there is another side to the spectrum as well.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

" The people who criticize her are very vocal. Mary Sue thing is just as tired as a new hope remake. "

this is getting boring and akin to talking to a wall. These 2 criticisms are the most pointed to because they are the most obviously and glaring. And if the defenders won't budge or concede even the slightest admittal to the weaknesses of these aspects how can we ever move on to anything more specific. use logic here.

I already said no one owes me an explanation but if they respond to my criticism with weak point, logic or even insults I am going come down on them like the hammer of the gods. That is my prerogative and if they are too weak to defend themselves and resort to shrinking away to pathetic cope outs, like "I just think it is dumb" to discuss, then that is a reflection of the weakness of their argument to begin with and a suggestion they do not have a actual defense so the whole thing became a trivial exercise to a loop around someone pathological ideology and not even a discussion of film.

" people called me a feminist douche bag who is sexist"

funny that you bring this up because I have neither said nor hardly seen any discussion towards the anywhere towards Rey. I admit I am not on Mad Max discussions as much but all the criticisms I have seen of Rey have been about character and writing and nothing about gender (or at least very seldom). The fact is one of the only defenses I have seen of such criticism of the writing is it was based in sexism (of course without any proof to substantiate the claim). This is seemingly what you are trying to do here yet again, but being a little more guarded about actually casting the label.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

this is getting boring and akin to talking to a wall. These 2 criticisms are the most pointed to because they are the most obviously and glaring. And if the defenders won't budge or concede even the slightest admittal to the weaknesses of these aspects how can we ever move on to anything more specific. use logic here.

So the question I have then is there no difference between a New Hope and TFA? I am going to counter and use your way of thinking here. If you will not concede to there being any difference between TFA and a new hope then the conversation is dead in the water. I myself do think there are too many repeats. Now lets see if you're mature enough to admit the differences.

I already said no one owes me an explanation but if they respond to my criticism with weak point, logic or even insults I am going come down on them like the hammer of the gods. That is my prerogative and if they are too weak to defend themselves and resort to shrinking away to pathetic cope outs, like "I just think it is dumb" to discuss, then that is a reflection of the weakness of their argument to begin with and a suggestion they do not have a actual defense so the whole thing became a trivial exercise to a loop around someone pathological ideology and not even a discussion of film.

You sure about that? The way you present your arguments it's as if you demand an explanation.

I did not defend Rey... So that entire point is irrelevant. I simply pointed out to you that if someone even tries to they get attacked. Do not act as if everyone is so diplomatic as to hearing the other side's point.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Of course there are differences, we have BB-8 instead of R2-D2, we have Jakku instead of Tatooine, we have Starkiller Base instead of the Death Star. The story however is the EXACT SAME, the same events happen all we did was just substitute in different names. If you can't understand that then you are a f-cking idiot.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

So a storm trooper turned against the empire? Luke got taken hostage and interrogated by the main villain? Lightsaber duel happened between Luke and Vader? We saw behind Vader's mask? Vader got defeated by Luke?

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

All very MINOR differences

- In A New Hope we had a smuggler working for the gangsters of Tatooine turning against the Empire

- In A New Hope Leia was taken hostage and interrogated by the main villain

- In A New Hope we had a lightsaber fight between Obi Wan and Vader

- We did see behind the mask of Vader in the sequels

In A New Hope/Force Awakensa rebel gets a piece of information that is critical to the destruction of the villains but has to put it in a droid just moments before being taken hostage by a villain dressed in all black, this rebel is eventually rescued by someone else in a storm trooper uniform. Said droid is then stuck on a desert planet and is saved from a scrap pile by a force sensitive character who yearns to see the galaxy. When the villains try to reclaim the droid the heroes escape in the Millennium Falcon and meet up with an older character (Obi-Wan/Han Solo). It turns out there is a planet destroying weapon and the weapon is used to destroy a planet/planets (Alderaan/all those other planets) to demonstrate the villains power. The heroes eventually invade the planet destroying base to rescue another character but before they can escape the older mentor character is killed by the main villain, then everything climaxes in a space battle where the X-wings have to maneuver down a trench and fire a torpedo to destroy the planet destroying weapon.

If you can't see that The Force Awakens directly ripped off A New Hope then you are living in denial. History is not going to be kind to The Force Awakens, as soon as the nostalgia wears off people are going to realize what a godawful piece of sh!t it is much like how they realize TPM wasn't that good.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

We saw behind Vader's mask in the sequels. We are talking about a New Hope not the sequels. Luke did not fight the main villain it was Obi Wan. With that being said Vader was not defeated in a New Hope. Kylo Ren was defeated by Rey.

No I am afraid you're wrong about the reception dropping. No matter how much time passes TFA will be better received than the prequels were. No you just are hoping the reception drops as time passes. It still is in the 250 films of all time on imdb. A list which you constantly reference. It is funny how insecure you are.

In order to feel validated you want the public's response to be the same as yours. Remember when you said Rogue one would make the bottom 100 of imdb? Lmao I am still waiting on that one. By the way do not see the Last Jedi if this was so bad. No one is forcing you to watch it.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again you are splitting hair. By your logic Home Alone 2 and Home Alone are not the same movie because in Home Alone 2 Kevin made it to the airport when he didn't in Home Alone, or in Home Alone 2 Harry and Marv already knew who Kevin was when in Home Alone they didn't. The difference here is that the acting in Home Alone 2 was somewhat decent so I was able to overlook some of the flaws of Home Alone 2, The Force Awakens the acting, the dialogue was ATROCIOUS so I can't give the recycled plot a pass. I just showed you concrete proof that the events of A New Hope and The Force Awakens are virtually identical and you ignored it and instead just found petty, minor differences. And give me a break buddy I'm typing from my ipad.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

A storm trooper turning against his empire is not a minor difference. The fact that he played a huge role in the story is major as well.

You claimed A new Hope and TFA were the exact same. Even if there are minor differences that violates what you tried to say. I proved there are differences therefore they are not the exact same.

Seriously dumbasses like you make it too easy.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

LOL, I have been kicking your little bitch ass ever since the IMDB days, you are just throwing out minor tidbits and acting like they are major plot points. Finn is the new Han Solo character, Han was a scumbag and a scoundrel but he came around and eventually fought for what is right, same thing with Finn. The only difference is Han was a smuggler for the gangsters of Tatooine and Finn was a stormtrooper, same character arc, they just swapped out characters.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

No but it's okay cute little boy I will let you delude yourself. Return of the King is nestled in nicely well above the Dark Knight Rises. Therefore Return of the King>>>The Dark Knight Rises.

Funny thing is Return of the King beats The Dark Knight Rises better than the Dark Knight Rises beats TFA. Lets look at the data.

imdb TDKR>>>TFA
Rottentomatoes TFA>>>TDKR
Metacritic TFA>>>TDKR
Box office TFA>>>TDKR
award nominations TFA>>>TDKR

imdb Return of the King>>>TDKR
Rottentomatoes Return of the King>>>TDKR
Metacritic Return of the King>>>TDKR
Box office Return of the King>>>TDKR
awards nominations Return of the King>>>TDKR

Damn talk about TDKR getting it's ass kicked!

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Um I'm pretty sure we were talking about how TFA ripped off ANH, why are you all of a sudden talking about LOTR vs. TDKR. You changed the subject that proves that you couldn't hold your own. I just beat you again.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

This is too easy. If you want more along the lines of Han Solo that would be Poe. Anyhow how was Finn a scoundrel? The second he turned against the empire he was a genuine good guy.

Risking his life for Rey as well as confessing everything he did was far more than anything Han Solo did in a New hope.

Rey meeting the mentor in the end was not like a New hope either.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Finn continually lied to Rey and Han how does that not make him a scoundrel??? I've noticed that you continually deflect from the obvious similarities that I posted showing how TFA and ANH are the same movie and instead you are just digging up whatever minor, nit picky tid bits you can come up with. Again I can play this game: Home Alone 2 isn't the same movie as Home Alone because in Home Alone the family had a hard time getting a flight back to Chicago but in Home Alone 2 it wasn't much of a problem getting a flight to New York. The Hangover 2 isn't the same movie as The Hangover because in The Hangover 2 they were in Bangkok instead of Las Vegas. Just more proof that you don't have a leg to stand on. Do yourself a favor and never become a lawyer, your clients will hate you and I don't think you are going to get a lot of business.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Funny okay then lets use your logic. You said people over time will learn to hate TFA because it is a ripoff of a New Hope. Okay then if that is the case answer me this question. Why is Last Crusade still held in high regard among critics and fans even though it is as you claim a ripoff of Raiders?

It has been over 20 years and guess what that is still on the top 250 and has not budged.

I have not seen Hangover 2 so that point you're making is irrelevant. Lying automatically makes someone a scoundrel?

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Last Crusade does not ripoff Raiders to the degree that TFA rips off ANH, I will give you that. Reusing the Nazis was just lazy just like it was lazy of ROTJ to reuse the death star. There is A LOT more wrong with LC than the recycled Raiders plot. And it did well because it was more family friendly. Parents didn't like Temple because it was too dark and violent for their children (again did they not see the first movie) but they felt comfortable taking their children to see LC because it was watered down, not violent and very campy.

OK let me just save you the trouble, its the same damn movie just in Bangkok instead of Las Vegas, like Home Alone 2 was the same movie just in New York instead of Chicago.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I am not going to take your word for Hangover 2. I saw the bad reception and had no interest in seeing the film.

Anyway so after 20 years it is still seen as a great film. Therefore I think TFA will be the same.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

That's fine, I personally don't like watching one of the great adventure heroes ever reduced to Mickey Mouse jokes.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Jokes? As in plural? I must have missed one. Tell me where the other one was? There is the one when Indy is faking that accent where is the other?

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again splitting hairs, the point is a Mickey Mouse jokes should never be in an Indiana Jones movie, that shows it is being dumbed down to appeal to children and the first two movies were NOT movies for children. You see this I am arguing based off of evidence from the film, something you are incapable of doing.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

You completely made yourself looke dumb. You claimed jokes as in plural. I myself thought the joke was hilarious. Apparently so did a lot of others given the film's prestigious rating.

That scene alone makes it better than Temple of Doom. Crusade>>Temple so glad the public and majority of critics agree.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Hahahahaha, OMG you actually liked the kiddie Mickey Mouse humor. You do know that the line was supposed to be "Jesse Owens" instead (someone who I learned about in 3rd grade) but they changed it because more children would know who Mickey Mouse is. Thank you for proving my point you f-cking imbecile.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again your argument can't stand on its own so you have to throw in a bunch of critical reviews. I guess by your logic you aren't allowed to dislike TDKR or Interstellar.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I can dislike any film I choose to as can you. Thing is though it has to stop at in my opinion.

In your opinion Crusade and TFA are bad films. However when measured objectively they are considered great films. Check and mate!

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

And objectively speaking TDKR is a great film and it's way better than that piece of sh!t TFA. By your standards I can call TFA a "piece of sh!t" when compared to TDKR.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

No you actually can not. Because when factoring in all the data TDKR does not beat TFA. Only on imdb you small minded dumbass. TFA wins in RT, MC, Box office, and in award nominations.

So out of 5 rounds the force awakens won 4 and TDKR won 1. Return of the King ass raped TDKR on 5/5 rounds. LMAO I absolutely love it!

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again when did I ever introduce data into this dicussion? You did because you know you don't have a leg to stand on so you need MC and RT to bail you out. You want to talk about data, TDKR made over a billion dollars, is the 64th greatest film of all time, has amazing reviews on RT and MC and is one of the most well received 3rd entries of any trilogy. That completely contradicts your claim that it sucks. How do you not understand this? You can throw all the data you want at me, I don't care, you will never convince me that TFA is any better than the sh!t I just dropped in the toilet. You will never convince me that ROTK respects the source material and is anything more than just an average fantasy adventure. I don't even consider LOTR to be a trilogy (and neither did Tolkein) so bringing ROTK into this discussion is irrelevant, especially considering they had to stretch the story into three movies by introducing subplots that they didn't have the time or the intelligence to finish (such as why are Eowyn and Faramir a thing?)

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Game, set and match! I also love how you couldn't defend TFA ripping off ANH so you had to bring in Indiana Jones, LOTR and TDKR along with a bunch of review data. Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, just give it up buddy.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

No I already pointed out the differences. I brought up Crsade because you claimed that to be a ripoffof Raiders. Years later people still love Crusade the same will be the case with TFA.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

You haven't proven a damn thing, Last Crusade did recylce the "let's race the Nazi's to this artifact plot but there is A LOT more wrong with Last Crusade than that such as the boring, lifeless acting, the juvenile humor, Marcus and Connery acting like complere morons (Jar Jar antics????), John Williams completely underwhelming score, the list goes on. You know you want to talk about how Last Crusade is still "beloved" I am pretty sure not one, not two but three Dark Knight movies have beaten it on IMDB, that is an absolute ass raping if I ever saw one. You are using Indiana Jones to support your idea that TFA will be loved 10 years down the road, something tells me that using an actual Star Wars movie is a far more accurate indicator. Again I am very happy for you, I think it's great that you can find joy in your little Disney Star Wars movies, go play with your BB-8 action figure and continue to convince yourself that he really isn't R2-D2 2.0, dickhead.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Give it time, it took years for people to realize how bad TPM was, the same thing will happen to these Disney Movies once people have a chance to process them and they finally admit to themselves that they sucked. The Force Awakens is almost off of the top 250, it has been dropping steadily ever since its release while films like TDKR have a very solid ranking.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Fat chance. Rian Johnson who directed Looper which was a strongly received film is penning the screenplay and directing the Last Jedi. If Last Jedi is well received it will make people love TFA even more.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Oh I want TLJ to be good, I want all of these movies to be good, I wanted to add TFA and R1 to my collection but right now I just can't because they are so awful. Rian Johnson directed some of the greatest Breaking Bad episodes ever so I do have faith but a lot depends on the writers and the script which he does not have full control over.

That is awesome though that you are able to predict the future, you must have a high midi-clorian count, you should talk to Master Qui Gon.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Kind of like how you can predict the future about people hating TFA right? Lets see who has a higher midi-clorian count.

Your ass will be in the theater no matter what they do so quit whining.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I actually have something to base that off of though because the world adored The Phantom Menace when it first came out however over time they started to wake up and realized it was heavily flawed.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Um no the world did not adore the Phantom Menace when it came out. Is that why it got all those razzie award nominations? You think TFA will go from the 90% range all the way down to a 55% where Phantom Menace is? Wishful thinking.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I completely disagree with this guy on his opinion on The Force Awakens but he does bring up a very good point about Phantom Menace:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GamrRXyIUs

Watch the first couple of minutes, it is filled with people praising TPM

Again you have no way of predicting the future, plenty of people loved TPM when it first came out, quite the public's opinion on TFA will change just like it did with TPM

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Just like how it would change with the Last Crusade and it being a Raiders ripoff oh wait. People still love that film. In fact it is held over Temple of doom and it has been over 20 years. I see the same happening for TFA.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again I am glad you like your crapfest, I am very happy for you. You are able to look at a piece of dog sh!t and see something good in it. That is a rare gift, not many can do that. That and your psychic abilities.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

So now Crusade is crap to. Well not according to the critics and imdb. It is the second highest rated Indiana Jones flick.

So I guess the gift is not all that rare as you claimed lmao! Considering everyone else thinks the Last Crusade and TFA are better than the ones you enjoy.

According to the data TFA is better than any of the prequels and Crusade is better than Temple and Skull. Like I said it contradicts what you said about it being rare you dumbass.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

What is with you and citing critic reviews? Are you not able to argue based on the merits? Are you not able to back up your argument and you need the critics to bail you out? I don't think I ever once argued that Last Crusade didn't have good reviews. I don't think I ever argued that TFA didn't have good reviews. I just hate those films and I articulated why. You can't defend them, you have to turn to RT and MC which is pretty cowardly.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

It gets old doesn't it? You did that all the time with The Dark Knight Rises. The second someone spoke out against it and told their point on why they disliked it you would cite the ratings immediately.

Funny thing was when the ratings did not suit you they never got brought up. Which was the case for TFA. I promise if the prequels had higher rankings than TFA those ratings would be plastered all over this site by you.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

The only reason I did that was because Wallace the giant bleeding pussy told me I couldn't like TDKR more than LOTR because LOTR had better data yet he gave Titanic a 2. So I gave him a taste of his own medicine and told him he couldn't think that because Titanic swept the Oscars. You really aren't too bright are you?

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Nope I saw that entire debate you lying ass hole. He said okay is imdb's measurement the end all be all of measuring a film's quality?

He then pointed out to you that Return of the King obliterates TDKR on imdb.

You then of course got all salty because now the show was on the other foot. I am glad it beat that film. It is so much better than that film anyway and the rating proves it.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

If you knew what the hell you were talking about you'd know that was inaccurate. All I said was that I liked TDKR more than LOTR and I got attacked with a bunch of RT/MC reviews. I never said that IMDB was the sole decider in what was good and what was bad. I did say though that by his logic TDKR was one of the greatest films ever made. It's OK though I don't expect someone of your low intelligence level to be able to keep up.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Wow you're a grade A dumbass. Crusade is rated higher than Batman Begins. So um yet again more proof you have no idea what you are talking about. Crusade ass raped Batman Begins on imdb. Get your facts straight next time.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Dickhead, last time I checked Last Crusade was behind Batman Begins, I guessed things changed, you know how TFA is progressively getting lower and lower and will be off the top 250 eventually. The point still stands, TDKR still completely ass raped Last Crusade, 64 to 112 (or whatever), TDKR absolutely destroyed Last Crusade, it wasn't even close. Pretty pathetic how your own data turns against you.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

LMAO! What is your point in saying TDKR beat Crusade? Did I ever deny that? I was not the one who claimed TDKR to be without a doubt the best third entry ever. You were. I never claimed Crusade to be the best third entry. Return of the King ass rapes TDKR in every single objective measurement. You need to accept the facts.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

You are too f-cking stupid to realize that this conversation was never about data, it was about my opinion which is the point of this message board. Did I ever say that TFA had bad data? Did I ever say that TDKR had better data than ROTK? No I was able to argue based on the quality of each film I was able to put forth a convincing case why I felt the way I did, you on the other hand were boxed into a corner so you had no choice but to start researching a bunch of numbers that no one really cares about.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Oh no you care about the ratings. If you did not then why do you constantly list the data anytime someone talked about TDKR back in the day? Again do you think we should listen to you over professional film critics and the majority opinion? We put more stock in them than you.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Again you are too f-cking stupid to realize that Wallace the bleeding pussy was the one who started reciting data because I dared to say that I liked TDKR more than LOTR. All I was doing was giving him a taste of your own medicine but I made a mistake, I should have realized that someone of your low intelligence level wouldn't be able to pick up on that. Vinny I was wrong, I should have accepted that you were a complete moron from the very beginning.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Also not true. People that were not Wallace would voice how they disliked the film and you would recite the data. He had nothing to do with your childish antics. You started that crap not him.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

The only person I ever did that to was Wallace to show him how flawed and idiotic his argument was, do yourself a favor buddy and just go back to your room and start playing with your Rey and BB-8 action figures, leave the adult conversations to everyone else, it's obvious you aren't able to keep up.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Now you're lying through your teeth and you know it. It is okay live in denial. Do yourself a favor and skip the last jedi and leave us fans in peace.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

LOL, I have no problem letting you pathetic fan boys watch The Empire Strikes Back - 2017 and then pretend that it is something new and original. I am going to stick with more intelligent films like the ones I listed in my top 25. That and I am going to read the LOTR books again, you know those books that tell a coherent story from beginning to end and weren't butchered by the likes of Peter Jackson.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

All three LOTR films are in the top 250 lol. I would not call that butchering anything. What was butchered was Batman in TDKR. As someone who read the comics I was disgusted.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I have explained in very convincing detail why LOTR was butchered from the book, you have not provided a single reason for TDKR beyond "it sucked", of course I can't expect someone with a simple mind like yours to put forth any kind of convincing argument.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Oh so you conveniently forgot about the most horrible use of exposition in film I listed? Remember the clean slate and that is just a single flaw when there are several in that trash film.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

First of all that was not the most horrible usage of exposition, that honor belongs to Legolas explaining to the audience the legend of the pirate ghosts, although I did recognize that it wasn't well done but that is a total of 30 seconds out of an almost 3 hour movie, considering how awesome the other 2 hours, 43 minutes and 30 seconds are I think we can give that a pass.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

You need to be patient with vinny. Back on IMDB there was a poster by the name of WallaceHasLanded, and when I would post that I liked The Dark Knight better than Lord of the Rings he would immediately jump down my throat and tell me I wasn't allowed to think that because Lord of the Rings won more awards and was liked better by the screen actors guild or whatever, yet I would look on the guys ratings and he would rate films like Blade Runner and Titanic a 2 when they both have very good ratings. So I would throw the guys logic back at him, I would point out that The Dark Knight Rises also has very good ratings whenever he would say things like "The Dark Knight Rises sucks" and it went back and forth until here we are. Vinny thinks he is trolling me but he really has no idea what he's talking about.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Well the way I look at it; there are least some merit we can judge film objectively to some degree. I think the dark night rises is an objectively bad (not terrible) film and Return of the king is an objectively good (not great) film. Awards don't always properly reflect film quality but do tend to be an indication of quality. It is hard to imagine ROTK would win 11 for 11 academy awards (tied for most awards in film history and the only one to win all 11 awards it was nominated for) and not be an objectively good film to some degree. TDKR got 0 nominations altogether. It is hard to imagine that is not in some way objectively unworthy in some sense.

But as I said not all awards or lack of reflect quality. Titanic is one of the other films to win 11 academy awards and I think it is a rather dull film that had a few clever gimmicks.

I have stated elsewhere why I do not like TDKR if you want I can repeat it or go into great detail as to why, but the point being as bad as I found it I can overlook my dislike of it because it was not the worse movie I have seen and I do not care about comic book films that much. I loved star wars and TFA was, by almost ever objective measure I have available, the worst big budget movie I have ever seen.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

That's fine you can like LOTR and not like TDKR, but film is art and art is subjective. It is an objective fact that the academy gave more awards to LOTR over TDKR but I have also never really seen a superhero movie that did well at the Oscars and won awards that weren't technical awards (ie Best Sound Effects Editing, etc.). I personally thought LOTR was good yet flawed when I first watched it but I read the books last summer and now I am realizing how badly the films butchered the books. I have loved all three films in Nolan's Batman trilogy ever since I saw them and I don't see that changing anytime soon, again just my opinion I welcome yours.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I have read the Batman comics and that is when I realized how bad the Dark Knight Rises was butchered by Nolan. When has a fantasy ever won best picture before? Lord of the Rings was a breakthrough something not even any of the original Star wars films could do.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Both Raiders and the original Star Wars were nominated for Best Picture, fantasy has received a lot more recognition than comic book movies. Other than Heath Ledger's Best Supporting Actor I don't think a comic book movie has ever received anything other than a technical category award. Would you like to explain how TDKR butchered the comics? From what I understand it was based off of The Dark Knight Returns. And don't be like the dumbass who bitched that "Alfred would never leave Bruce", that actually happened in the comics.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

OH compared to the Book only Fellowship did the series justice. But I think overall they were good Film adaptations.

Yes you are also right that the academy and other awards groups seem to have a bias against comic films. I am not trying to make the argument that awards are the only indication of quality but can be A indication. I was look warm to Batman Begins, The Dark Knight was really good but DKR was not; at least as I can measure, good.

Like and dislike is subjective. The point I was trying to make you can like something that is objectively bad and admit it. I like some objectively bad films and hate some objectively good films.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

A film can objectively have better reviews, win more awards, make more money and that is all valid but I don't think that objectively makes a film better, that is all opinion based. I could think Commando is better than The Godfather and no one would be able to tell me that I'm wrong (I don't actually think that by the way although there are times that I need to turn my brain off and just have fun, Commando is good for that).

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I disagree I think you can say, and should say, Godfather is an objectively better film but you enjoy Commando more. There is nothing wrong with that. It is when you try to apply your subjective standards as being worthy of overriding objective merit we run into problem.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Yes I would never deny that The Godfather has received far more praise and acclaim than Commando. Objectively it is more decorated and has received far more acclaim that Commando could ever hope. However whether it is a better movie is impossible to measure, that is subjective. Kind of like how I was hanging out with my friends and I wanted to watch Apocalypse Now but they all said "that movie sucks lets watch Joe Dirt".

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Here is the thing though. Return of the King is considered a great film by every objective measure outside of you. Awards, cultural impact, critical reception as well as reception by the people. TFA is considered a good film as well by reception of critics and the people. It does not excel in awards like Return of the King does. So Return of the King is considered better. Just an fyi a film can be considered a great film without your approval. I myself hate Pulp Fiction with a passion but I would never deny that it is considered one of the best films ever made. By no measure other than you is TFA the worst big budget film ever.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I am going to let someone else handle this idiot.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Were you replying to me on this? because I consider ROTK to be a good film objectively speaking. I hate Dances with Wolves with a passion but recognize it is probably one of the greatest films ever made. I can be objective too. TFA by any and all measures I judge movies based on merit is by far the worse I have seen (big budget anyway). This is why it is so surprising that many critics and fans have seemingly blinded themselves to this film. I guess the emotions and nostalgia is still just too fresh right now. only time will tell how deep this denial goes; it might be pathological and based on some of the responses I have seen this is highly suspected to be the case.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I was replying to you yes. All objective measures outside of you say that is not true. When you have films such as these.

Waterworld
Star Wars the Phantom menace and Attack of the Clones
Batman & Robin
Catwoman
X-men Origins Wolverine
Green Lantern
Fantastic Four 2015

No way in hell is TFA worse than any of those films. If it is worse than those by your objective measure I put absolutely no stock in you at all! TFA beats all those films by a huge margin when measuring awards, cultural impact as well as reception from fans and critics. I have no issue with you it being your most hated but you took it a step further by claiming the objective measures you use. So every professional film critic other than you is blinded by nostalgia and that is why they gave it a positive review? Take off the tinfoil hat please. They might just like something you don't. I hate Pulp Fiction but I do not need to make up lame reasons like that to explain why they gave it a positive review. Quit deluding yourself.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I would watch Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones or X-Men origins any day over TFA. PM and AOTC especially are hands down better than that piece of garbage TFA, I will refer you to my rankings in the original post. I didn't see any of the other movies except for Batman and Robin and I might actually like Batman and Robin more than TFA, Batman and Robin is at least hilariously awful.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I have not seen Catwoman or 2015 Fantastic Four; but I would honestly watch only of those others you mentioned over TFA even though I hated nearly all of them as well. TFA was actually painful to get through. I really am sincere in saying I think it is the worst big budget movie I have ever seen.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I do not care if you are sincere. It is when you claim by your objective measures. Since that is the case your credibility is shot. The reception critically, by fans, cultural impact and award recognition refutes that. Also they seem to be far more fair than you. It is better received and more respected than any of those films I listed. It does not have to get by you I hate to break it to you.

There were two shots to your credibility. One by objective measures this is the worst big budget film. Yeah right.

Two all the critics who saw this are blinded by nostalgia. This implies that every single film critic except you was blinded by nostalgia. It could not be that you know they just thought it was good. That is simply too easy of an answer to accept. Occam's razor what is that?

This reminds me of when Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad came out. Both films came out and got critically panned all around. The people tried to start up a petition to shut down rottentomatoes. Oh the critics are just Marvel fanboys that will down vote anything DC related right? Oh wait the entire Dark Knight trilogy was well received critically. Maybe get this the critics just did not think the film was good? Again Occam's razor screw that!

Honestly some of the critiques you have made I am fine with. When people start projecting though that is when I lose interest in what they are saying. I hate Pulp Fiction but again I do not need to make up lame excuses as to why critics enjoyed it. They liked it and I did not plain and simple. There is not some secret conspiracy as to why they rated it high.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Not all critics praised it, most recognized the weaker elements but overlooked, likely for the sake of their careers; bashing a star wars film pushing a female lead would not do wonders for a journalistic career in modern american; and if you don't think that played a role you are incredibly naive.

I think it is the worst film I have ever seen but I try to keep in mind there may have been smaller budget obscurities I am neglecting. TFA as far as I could see had not a single redeeming quality. Only a few aspects of it were mediocre and the value I put on story and character means since this film was lacking in those departments means the other qualities couldn't make up.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Notice I said the majority of critics praised it. Every film will have it's naysayers. The overall reception is rather raving though when all factored in. A Star Wars film pushing a female lead would not do wonders for their career. Okay lets apply that logic elsewhere. Pixar a famously respected studio pushing the first pixar film with the female as the lead protagonist. That would guarantee that it would make that the studios most critically beloved film right? Oh wait Brave only got lukewarm reception.

And by you saying that as I said I put no stock in you. If it is that bad do not go see the Last Jedi. You will though that is what I love about all you whining people. No one is forcing you to watch it so stop seeing them. I am a Terminator fan. They lost me after Salvation. I thought three was bad and Salvation even worse. Therefore I do not see any further entries problem solved. Is it that hard of a concept to understand?

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"Notice I said the majority of critics praised it."

Yes, go back and read some of the actual reviews; even those praising admitted the weaker elements but they overlooked them and still praised the film.

" A Star Wars film pushing a female lead would not do wonders for their career. "

Going up against a Star Wars film pushing the first female lead would not do wonders for their careers in a industry that has a very powerful vocal feminist support. People that do say something are pounced on and nearly always suffer negative consequences. And there is a difference between making a new series with a female lead and putting a female lead into an already popular franchise. Not that it is bad to do so, but if it was done poorly; like I say it was for TFA, it still makes it unlikely spineless critics will 'rock the boat'.

"If it is that bad do not go see the Last Jedi."

Considering I did not see TFA or Rogue one in Theater I will likely not do so for Last Jedi. and may not watch the series at all.

"You will though that is what I love about all you whining people. No one is forcing you to watch it so stop seeing them"

I hate this condescending tone. So according to you only people that like a film can discuss it; those that want to look at the weaker elements and discuss criticism are just "whining people" that should stop watching ergo no longer be able to discuss.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

The film got praised but was not considered with nearly the critical acclaim TFA got. I remember reading the reviews when the Phantom Menace came out. The main thing which was praised was the visuals. Which admittedly were pretty good for the time. I remember the story being criticized from day one. It kind of reminds me of Avatar to a lesser degree. What is Avatar mainly praised for? The acting? The writing? No the visuals and that is mainly it.

Good there you go problem solved. Spare yourself the pain if you hated TFA so bad.

I hate the fact that your mind is made up before you even see the film. That is why I told you to stop seeing the films. I openly admit I am closed minded about the Pirates series but that is why I stopped going to see them. Sorry but the moment you claimed TFA to be objectively worse than some of the big budget blockbusters like Batman & Robin that is when all your credibility was shot! By every objective measure of data TFA is considered better than Batman & Robin.

Your words do not dictate if a film will be respected or not. TFA rather you like it or not is considered a good film by critics and fans.

I do not care if you critique the film. However let me ask this. What the hell kind of objective measure are you using to say TFA is worse than Batman & Robin?

Sounds like a rather subjective claim when you see the vast majority of fans and critics disagree to an insane degree.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"I hate the fact that your mind is made up before you even see the film. That is why I told you to stop seeing the films. "

My mind was not made up prior to TFA. I went in hopeful. My mind is not made up either about TLJ but I can't imagine a scenario in which they will satisfactorily explain away the problems in TFA and it is going to hang over the series head in a very negative way.

Batman and Robin was a goofy comic book movie that was horribly done. As bad as it is; I still view TFA as a worse movie overall. Now not all movies are rated with the same scrutiny. A movie with Arnold I would never expect to be a Godfather like masterpiece. But an Arnold movie can be Good as a Arnold movie. Batman and Robin was a bad movie for what it was. As I see it though based on the merits I see films being judged; TFA is worse for what it was that Batman and Robin for what it was. I am not sure if that makes sense.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

A film should be rated on it's own merits. By you going well it is not going to satisfactorily explain the problems away created by TFA shows you are going in closed minded. I judge a film as it is. I honestly think you were let down. To be honest I had a pitch for TFA that I like better than the story they went with. I do not think this film is perfect myself. You though act as if this on the level of Batman & Robin and it is just simply not true. Even if I hated this film I would not make a claim like that.

Admit it you secretly want the film to fail because you are salty about the success TFA got which you did not like. Since by your own claims you said you hate that if it is good people will overlook TFA.

Terminator 2 is considered a cinematic classic. Arnold is by no means an high brow Oscar worthy actor. However he was no doubt iconic as the Terminator. Literally he was born to play that role. Just because you may not be a thespian actor does not mean you can not be in a film that is considered a cinematic classic. Orlando Bloom was in LOTR after all. He is not a high brow thespian actor either.

Yeah maybe I am not understanding. Even comparing basic technical achievements the TFA is far better than Batman & Robin. Cinematography, action sequences, effects all were done better in TFA. Batman & Robin was trying to be a campfest but failed at even doing that. It was so bad that it was unintentionally funny.

Put film critics and fans in a room and have those movies face off. I promise you TFA would come out on top every day of the week.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"By you going well it is not going to satisfactorily explain the problems away created by TFA shows you are going in closed minded."

Not what I said, I said I can't imagine a scenario in which they explain the problems of TFA away. How, even if the explanation is good, will it not now feel tacky? Can you imagine a scenario or do you just not care?

"Admit it you secretly want the film to fail because you are salty about the success TFA got which you did not like. Since by your own claims you said you hate that if it is good people will overlook TFA. "

I don't want star wars to fail, I want the weak elements of the highly financially successful TFA to be scrutinized so that the film producers and directors realize they have to put out quality star wars films or loss their audience. All this excuse making and overlooking the many flaws of TFA is just reason for disney to keep giving more of the same, if people by it why not?

I do find it annoying that if TLJ is really good most people will just give a pass to TFA. You may not believe me but I found TFA a more painfully bad experience than even Batman and Robin because even though the execution of the story of Batman and Robin was awful, TFA had a horribly weak story and even worse characters. Finn is basically Robin, Kylo is basically Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy is Snoke, I would say Rey is Batman but that would be selling Rey way to short. She is more like Superman.

I am not going to try to defend Batman and Robin though to try to 'prove' it is a better film. Why would I do that, Batman and Robin is properly hated. In my view TFA is equally bad and yet it is getting praises and defended like no other film in history.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Honestly I do not care.

It is too late dude. TFA was a huge success financially. No amount of complaining or scrutiny is going to make TFA not a huge hit. The only way to have successfully done this would to been have try and present your case when the film was out in theaters. It is all said and done. Vote with your wallet.

No I do not believe you. Even as someone who hates Pulp Fiction worse than Batman & Robin I would not be caught dead saying it is an objectively worse film.

You disliked TFA therefore everyone else needs to feel the same way. You need to get over it. You hated it and everyone else loved it. Do you see me throwing a tantrum that everyone but me loves Pulp Fiction?

I am going to drive home a point to you. In order for a film to be considered great it does not have to go through you.

Stop seeing the films if it is honestly that painful.

You are on a crusade to make everyone agree with you. Good luck with that. Good luck convincing everyone that it is worse than Batman & Robin. You completely side stepped on how I showed that even when measuring technically TFA is far better made than Batman & Robin is.

I also found that comment you made about how all critics were blinded by nostalgia. Yeah because it is not possible for someone to just like the film. Again I ask do I make up bs like that as to why critics liked Dances With Wolves?

Occam's razor learn that please.

Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice and Suicide Squad were downvoted by critics because there are all Marvel fanboys right? They hate everything DC oh wait TDK trilogy is highly received. They just get this drum rolls did not like the films gasp!

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

So you are able to determine which film is objectively better??? Ok Apocalypse Now vs Pulp Fiction, I want to see your formula and your calculations.

While your at it give me Phantom Menace vs Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Some of the previously listed movies were at least bad in a funny way. TFA was bad in an infuriating way.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Yeah it was pretty infuriating. But I think the endless line of pleabs coming out to defend what is basically indefensible with some of the worst conceivable logic and reasoning combined with petty untrue insults it what is truly remarkable.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

They are in denial, this is what happens when a movie that has been hyped to hell ends up being a massive disappointment. They will come around just like they did with TPM. I am so glad to see though that TFA is falling further and further down on IMDB Top 250, pretty soon that piece of garbage will be bumped off and then we need to work on getting it on the IMDB Bottom 100, right there alongside Manos the Hands of Fate and Superbabies.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

I don't go to IMDB anymore, but TFA does not deserve to be on any top anything list unless it is a negative list. like Top 10 worst written sequels or something, TFA can go there.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

According to you. Your word is law and everyone has to abide by it right? People think it is a good film get over it. I hate Dances With Wolves other people and critics love it. I am over it. The difference is I am not some entitled man child throwing a tantrum about it. I actually realize people do not have to agree with me.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Who the hell is throwing a tantrum? You are the one stalking me? Don't get me wrong though I am not complaining I love making a complete fool out of you.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Considering that I am messaging him no I would not say I am stalking you. Carry on bro life will be okay.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Are you going to answer my question? What is the objective formula that determines what film is better? After you have told me I want you to determine which film is better and show me your calculations:

Pulp Fiction vs. Apocalpyse Now

The Phantom Menace vs. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

Saturday Night Fever vs. Boogie Nights

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

People do not have to agree on personal preference. which is why if someone says TFA was a flawed film that they enjoyed anyway I would not complain. That is not the case though. There a large number of those like you that are trying to undermine the significance of these flaws, make excuses for them, or outright deny the flaws are there. That is the problem and the reason for such contention.

There has to be some objective measure to judging art (like film) otherwise I could spit mixed colors on to a canvas and it could be claimed to be better than or even equal to "the Last Supper". Either contestation would be utter nonsense. This is what I see many arguments in defense of this movie to be.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Name me a flawless film first off. Second off I admitted there were flaws. You are just wanting me to fall into your mindset that it is worse than Batman & Robin. People do not have to agree with you get that through your skull.

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[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

Main flaws:

Plot - unfocused and badly timed narrative shifts combined with over use of rehashed elements and plot points (and visuals) from the OT (mostly from ANH).

Rey - Overpowered and too much emphasis on her mysterious background leads to inexplicably fast developed abilities that undermine her character growth and undermine the mythos of the force. Basically she has no arc because she is good whatever the plot demands when it demands it and overcomes the challenges without much effort. She also seemingly has no true character flaws. No anger, no pride, no too much humility, no vanity, no arrogance. The only thing that comes close to a character flaw is naivety; given her naive expectation her parents will return and the way she naively believes Finn's lies. But again that does not work given her background as a lone scavenger. Naive lone scavengers would not survive in such an environment. so this flaw does not fit the given background. Which leads to the next flaw:

Characters - Most do not behave or react properly given their known background. Finn does not behave like an indoctrinated soldier and his becoming socially 'normal' happens too fast and without reason. Rey does not act like a loner scavenger and is also too trusting and in no way socially awkward like such a character should be. Han and Leia both inexplicable regress to their pre-ANH selves and this undermines their development in the OT. Luke is inexplicably absent. Poe is underdeveloped and Overpowered. Kylo Ren is inconsistent in his power level and no real dimension was given his struggle with the light. It fails the show don't tell test.

No focus to cohesive story telling - Everything is a "Good question. for another time" This is just a cop out. They did not have good answers so blew them off. They even tell you this in the film.

Poorly timed and for too modern self aware unnatrual humor - "who talks first, you talk first" "got a boyfried? cute boyfreind? "Droid please" Need I say more?

And these are just scratching the surface.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

How cute. Go vote on the Last Jedi before seeing it exactly like you did with Deadpool. By the way how was Dunkirk? Remember when you tried to rate that a 10 before seeing it?

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I still agree that it deserves a 10, it was really good but that is just for visually effects, sound effects and the intense atmosphere that Nolan created. It wasn't as deep as his previous films and I actually feel it was his weakest film since Insomnia. If a film like Dunkirk is one of your worst films you are a goddamn genius. I will see The Last Jedi, keep in mind I want these new movies to be good, I want to like them, as of now though I just can't and I was not impressed with the trailers, they seem to be repeating TESB but we will see.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I do not trust you. Your mind is made up.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

It deserves a 10 because Nolan's name is attached to it. That is how you operate.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Yet I didn't give Insomnia a 10. I also hated Batman v Superman.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

As long as he is directing and it is post The Dark Knight Rises. Remember the pattern. Post The Dark Knight Rises anything he directs you will vote a 10.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Nolan directed Insomnia dingleberry.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

It is not post The Dark Knight Rises smart one. Comprehend what you read please.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Oh so it has to be post-TDKR, is that your new conspiracy theory?

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Well hey why not. You heard this guy's conspiracy theory. Critics only gave TFA a positive review cause they were blinded by nostalgia. I figure if everyone else can have one why can't I?

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Except my theory makes sense, people loved TPM when it first came out, the same principle applies to TFA.

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

LIAR!!!

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[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

LIAR!!!

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[–] Volley (3433) 7 years ago

I disliked this movie as well, but then I read Star Wars Bloodline. (a friend had borrowed it to me) My outlook on the movie changed positively. It's sad that such an amazing book had to exist to make this movie much better, and that said I hope VIII and IX will also find a way to strengthen the weakest addition to the Star Wars franchise.

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