MovieChat Forums > Before Midnight (2013) Discussion > Why the Celine hate?

Why the Celine hate?

posted 11 years ago by XtAsI23
15 replies | jump to latest

Hi all

First things first - I'm a man in my 20's. I came to see that movie trilogy about 2-3 months ago, after seeing "My Dinner With Andre" (A great film as well) and getting a recommendation about the first two (And other films as well)

I have watched those two, without knowing what to expect, and was blown away. The first one was amazing, and the second one didn't fall anywhere beneath it. I've heard there was a 3rd movie as well. At first, I wasn't sure if the third will be great or just a "Moneygrab sequel" - But seeing it's the same director, the 8.1 ranking and the fact that the second one was brilliant, I've decided to give it a god

And guess what? It didn't fail as well. Here's my theory

Before Sunrise - The movie is about Jesse and Celine. No one else, period. Two young and single people discovering an amazing bond between them, and a magical night they spend together. "It's only about us and we care about no one else" - Pretty much first a man and woman on their 20's, along with the "I'm discovering and learning things about the world and the process of life" which is a great and something every man should have and makes a great part of the humankind's purpose

The ending is superb - We have no clue what will happen, if any. I guess people who saw this in 1995 had many thoughts and ideas about the outcome, which only made this movie even greater - This movie easily belongs to the movies of "You had to be there to fully understand" (i.e. "2001: A Space Odyssey, "Alien", "Star Wars", "The Shawshank Redemption", "Reservoir Dogs", you catch my drift)
When I saw this movie, my mind was driving like mad, so many thoughts and ideas sprung to me, about life, about love, aboud the "Second Half" which I'm so eager to find (Similar thoughts about this accrued to me while seeing "Californication" when seeing the relationship of Hank and Karen)

Before Sunset - 9 years have passed both in real life and in the movie, and we get to see them once again, reunited after all these years. It starts with the same theme - It's only the two of us. But after a while we learn it's not only about them anymore. They grew up, they're in a different phase. Each one has something left behind - A failing marriage and a "We barely see each other" relationship (2 sides of a one of many equations). I myself was sad to hear each one moved on because I felt and knew they belong to each other, even though times have changed - But it's not over yet - I was right. Those relationships are nothing like the one between Jesse and Celine. And once again, another great ending! We have no solid idea what's going to get on next, again, new ideas. The "I know" line is so simple, generic, and common, but it gets another charm in this scene

For me - This time it focuses about "The one we missed". We had them in our grasp, and for some reason, it didn't happen or just ended. We moved on, but we could never forget them, we didn't get what we want and needed, we just settled - And it doesn't suck - It just burns, burns you from the inside

A great example would be this thread - It's not fiction, It's real life
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112471/board/nest/197320853

The bond between those two wasen't broken, damaged, or hurt, it was just frozen. And when those two met once again, it just came out again, without anything dropped or missed - The only thing that troubled it were the shields both Jesse and Celine had, and that by the movie's and were broken

Before Midnight - My fear was crushed. This movie ranks with the previous two. This time, it's much much less about Jesse and Celine
We start the movie with them, showing the family - Jesse's son and their twins. We see them in a hotel, among other folks and couples, near the movie's half, they're finally alone and together, and everything seems right like we think it should - but then, a fight between them, and most of it is due to other people and things that aren't Jesse and Celine - The kids, Celine's mother, work, ambitions, etc.

I think the fight shows 2 major things:
1) Jesse and Celine are one of the best couples I've ever seen in the media, and they basically complete each other - It's just so magical in the first two movies, but the message here is clear - Even with a couple like this, nothing is perfect and both sides need to work hard in order to keep it up, if not harder - Because the outcome of losing your other half is much worse than "just losing somebody"
2) This is something Celine represents - Her ambitions as a young woman aren't the same anymore - There are other aspects you have to take in account before going to them - Best shown in the movie's beginning when she seriously considering working with someone she hates - A thing that young Celine would never settle for or even think to do so - This is another phase
The third movie is indeed sadder but it is the most realistic - Everything can break and nothing is failproof. Work hard to keep things the way they should and don't give up
So much happens in 18 years, and without knowing Ethan Hawk & Julie Delpy's life outside the movie, I am sure each one brought his own personal experience to the role, heck, they are in the middle of the process themselves

Another important point is the dinner they have back at the hotel - We see other couples besides them - Each one representing different times and ideas
Natalia and Patrick represent the past - Their stories tell so much, mostly about the sad part of breakup - The one you didn't plan to, but things have to be said
Stefanos and Ariadni - The present - They're equivalents of Jesse and Celine, but they both got married a long time ago - They are also the ones who got them the hotel room - I guess this means something - You have to experience things like that for yourselves, and this is the next step in your relationship
Achilleas and Anna - The future. The best thing is the idea of "Before Sunrise" in the current times - We were seperated for 2 months? Nah, we talked and saw each other every night on Skype! (jesse and Celine haven't seen each other for 9 YEARS!)

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I got sort of carried away here, but I have to ask - What's with Celine hate?
I've seen this mostly in the Before Sunset board, people claiming Celine is manipulative, a liar, etc. It gets to the point people are certain that she lied about her grandmother's death, etc. Most accusations also come from the fight between them

Why is that so?
She does have a point, you may agree with it and you may do the opposite, but blaming only one side in this is wrong in my opinion, and why?
What this trilogy does best is get to the idea and mind of both men and women. It shows realism and makes one of most men and women around the globe wish come true - Finding the other half.
Considering that idea, I really really doubt that there's only one side to blame - Both Jesse and Celine are treated equally, and I really would love to hear why some people accuse her much more than Jesse, and I'm saying this is a man who had a fight or two with women and sometimes also said to himself "What's wrong with them?"

All the movies I've ever seen - http://www.imdb.com/list/HFZcsiCTh38/

[–] Makarov-324 11 years ago

Good writeup. Although I don't really like the dinner scene as it's weird to see other couples conversing with them in a Jesse/Celine style.

I think the reason Celine gets hate is that her attacks on Jesse are much more vicious. Here's the rundown:

Jesse: Calls her crazy, complainer, whiner, and that she has a narrative of oppression. He's subtly manipulative in order to move to Chicago.

Celine: Insults his books & his writing, insults his ex, calls him bad in bed, tells him she doesn't love him, brings up affairs from the distant past, constantly suggests that they will break up, uses his own son against him by not handing the phone over, and does all this just so she can live where she wants with the job she wants.

Jesse acts like a jerk but he doesn't question their love, and at many points he seems to try to calm them down. He seems to bottle up a lot of his frustration. Meanwhile Celine gets angrier and angrier and she takes it all out on him.

I think Celine actually realized she crossed the line too much and she worked herself into a panic.

It's a great scene that's really realistic with how couples fight.

[–] XtAsI23 11 years ago

Thanks

In the dinner scene - They do feel like them - But that's the point! To compare with them and learn about what's going next or to see into the past and see things you haven't seen before

I can see your point but still, I think it's only logical Celine will be more pissed, after all, she is the one who is "threatened" (Even if he only talks about the option, because we all know where it starts, especially in a delicate matter like this)

1) Celine the idealist - We see a crack in her life perspective when she says she might even have to work with someone she hates in order to have a good salary. Moving to US will kill the dream
2) Europe vs America - It's pretty obvious that Celine prefers Europe. She already mentions it in "Before Sunrise", Jesse himself has a likeness to Europe too, and now they have 2 girls - Celine wants to stay in Europe and that her children will learn there, which makes that fact way more heavy
3) It's not for her - She handles Henry with love and care but the fact is at is - He's not her child. She will never agree to sacrifice that much for someone who isn't hers, especially if it's her boyfriend bitchy ex. She's afraid of what might happen if they'll move to the US

I think I've had another reason but I forgot, but yeah, it's only logical she'll be more pissed, even if it's Ed-Hominess at some point

Besides, it doesn't explain why people hate her before "Before Midnight" was even announced (Just check the "Before Sunset" board)

All the movies I've ever seen - http://www.imdb.com/list/HFZcsiCTh38/

[–] Makarov-324 11 years ago

Good point I'm not sure why people hate her in Before Sunset.

Except maybe for missing their meeting, but I doubt she lied about her grandma. It was kind of a far fetched plan to meet up that way anyway. Although I probably would have held a grudge more than Jesse did.

Other than that she seems like a pretty normal nice person.

[–] XtAsI23 11 years ago

Would love hearing more opinions on the matter

All the movies I've ever seen - http://www.imdb.com/list/HFZcsiCTh38/

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lisanovel 11 years ago

"Why the Celine hate?"

Because she came off as a cantankerous fat shrew.

I don't think there was one moment in that movie where she was charming. Even in the dinner scene with the other couples, when she did that 'bimbo' act, it went on and on to the point of obnoxiousness. Maybe the first two lines were funny - joke over. But no, she did this whole diatribe that never seemed to end. I am sure deep down the other people were like, Who does this bitch think she is?

The ratio of people to cake is too big.

[–] Leepal 11 years ago

I agree, lisanovel. The Celine character was not likeable at all in Before Midnight, I don't think that was the case in the first two movies but it's been a while since I watched them.

I guess there needed to be some kind of antagonism between the 2 main characters though.

[–] ToHelenBackAgain 10 years ago

I don't really get it either. I swallowed all three films in one fell swoop last night, and was fully expecting other visitors to this board to share my knotted stomach over their terribly, terribly damaging fight, but instead it's a whole lot of "Celine sucks."

Here Jesse is blaming Celine for his decisions, saying he "wrecked his life" for her, thus completely devaluing everything they've ever had, and cheating on her - is it some kind of surprise she has resentments, and they come out? And when that happens he calls her crazy and a slut. Or was it "whore"? I've forgotten, not that it matters much.

Not to mention, he expects her to work full-time, take care of their home, and raise the kids all by herself, and doesn't even recognize the work that goes into all that. He's really not much of a husband.

Neither of them is rational, in their fight. Both go on the attack randomly and are completely willing to do as much damage as possible just to hurt one another. That all seems pretty equally horrible to me (and sadly realistic in depicting the near-death decline of a once-good marriage). But I think she has a lot more reason for her generalized anger in the marriage. Their biggest problem is that he's been holding his own free choices against her for several years at this point, and he isn't shy about saying so - and he's just plain wrong in that.

Something that really struck me about both characters: In discussing the possibility of moving (well, mostly fighting about it), they never mention the effect this might have on the girls. I cannot fathom how this is even possible.

Snake Plissken. I've heard of you. I heard you were dead.

[–] idca 10 years ago

But I think she has a lot more reason for her generalized anger in the marriage.

I think so too.
What breaks my heart the most is how Celine was so visibly upset thinking back at when she had just given birth to the girls and she was on her own as Jesse was on his book tour. When she describes how she was feeling then, it sounds like she was suffering from postnatal depression. ("I don't think I've recovered since giving birth. When they were born, I had no idea what to do. People expect women to have instinct that kicks in, like a female baboon. But I had no idea how to do anything. […] I was doing everything wrong." […] "The truth is I never wanted to hurt [the babies] once but I thought about ending it all for myself a hundred times"). She was obviously traumatized, it's no wonder she's feeling so sensitive about the possibility of him having cheated on her at that time. Can you imagine? Cheating is always low but for him to cheat on her at that particular time in her life seems so insensitive and ruthless to me. Maybe even unforgivable. Jesse left Celine alone to deal with their twins as a first-time mother, she became overwhelmed and depressed, and he… was out cheating on her, the woman who's taking care of his newborn children!
Out of all the things that comes to light in Before Midnight, Jesse's failure as a partner at that time in Celine's life is the only thing that makes me feel their love is truly really tainted. I think she's in her right to still feel some resentment towards him. If I were her I would also have a hard time letting it go.

[–] Which_Tyler 9 years ago

Late to the party here, but - great post

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American money - In God We Trust
British banknotes - Charles Darwin

[–] sedaris54 10 years ago

Celine was great in the first two movies. Here, she was immature, over reactive, and mean. I understand her frustration with not achieving her career goals and being saddled to the children. However, she:

- burst out about Chicago over dinner like a petulant child
- staunchly insisted that Jesse wanted her to give up her career and move to Chicago when he said nothing of the sort, and merely wanted to discuss how to be a bigger presence in his son's life
- refused to go to Jesse's grandmother's funeral and instead joked about incest

I could have empathized with her position more if she didn't have such a nasty attitude throughout the whole film. It was an odd writing choice that jarred with the Celine of the first two films in my opinion.

[–] bohem5 10 years ago

At first when I started watching the film, I didn't like Celine and her attitude either. She was very bitter and frustrated with the world - she just seemed to spit and spread her pessimism. But during the fight with Jesse in the hotel, I could kind of understand where she was coming from and the primary issue I spotted between both Jesse and Celine is:

lack of communication.

Particularly on Celine's part. She kept things bottled up for so long - for instance how she felt helpless when their children were still babies and how she felt so alone and useless. That was the starting point of everything and her negative outlook on life. Once a person really starts to criticize oneself, the entire world shatters around them and that's exactly what happened to Celine. Had she communicated this to Jesse as it happened, they were not have such bitterness towards each other.

For Jesse, I don't think he's completely without fault either. I think while Celine kept things bottled up, he kept things too loose and just commented on things as he felt them in a way that made them sound slightly whiney. Even during the fight though I do admit he seemed much more mature trying to deal with the issue, he didn't try hard enough to really understand Celine I don't think. She clearly wasn't in the mood for wine yet he tried to calm her down with it, etc. And he did have a vibe of passive aggressiveness as stated by Celine. I personally dislike that too.

I think in the end, it was all down to a long build up of lack of communication. And that's why I loved the scene. I mean, when we think back to all OUR fights as a couple, I find the most common cause of it being the inability for the two to communicate properly.We as human beings have just too much emotion and self-esteem.

[–] Zuko-Halliwell 9 years ago

If you ask me, the person that everyone should hate is Jesse's *beep* ex-wife.

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