MovieChat Forums > American Sniper (2015) Discussion > Wouldn't YOU have become an insurgent?

Wouldn't YOU have become an insurgent?


Let's play make-believe for a moment.

Pretend that America is not America but is some low-on-the-totem-pole third-world country... and that Iraq is the superpower of the world. And let's say that the president of Iraq doesn't like our president (and maybe many of us don't like him very much either) and, largely because of this, the president of Iraq decides to launch an attack against our country. The death toll among our people is astronomical. There is an invading force in our country, our home, which has the power to wipe us out at any moment. And, to add insult to injury, they have the temerity to call themselves "liberators".

Would you not take up arms against these invaders? I know I would.

And that is what I was thinking about the whole time I was watching the movie. Every time Chris Kyle drew down on an "insurgent" I saw myself at the receiving end of that rifle.

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Go to New York and singing in the street and see how far it gets you. Open your eyes son. You killed twenty thousand of us and we kill a billion of yours and that's the way America works..... you don't like it get the Hell out. You break in my house and, I'll blow your *beep* brains out. Grow some balls. If it weren't for guys like Chris there would have been a draft and your fat ass would be over there right now fighting.

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You break in my house and, I'll blow your *beep* brains out. Grow some balls. If it weren't for guys like Chris there would have been a draft and your fat ass would be over there right now fighting.


Did the American Indians say this?





http://myimpressionz.tk

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>> You break in my house and, I'll blow your *beep* brains out.

Um, yes... that was my point. Did you not read what I wrote? Or did you just read a word here and there and interpret it as "liberalism", which it is anything but. I am not a liberal -- I am a libertarian non-interventionist. HUGE difference.

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We are the puppet of the neocon Jews who pressured Bush to invade Iraq. It was all about weakening the Arabs for Israel. Now the Arabs are so weak, we have to take them in as refugees.

Israel needs to quit grabbing more land from the Palestinians and make a State for them. Greed only goes so far.

Friendship with Israel is becoming strained.

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Thats funny, I have a Cherokee Indian friend from Oklahoma and he says they should have killed us all Plymouth Rock, lol, but seriously guys, people saw the planes hit the building, I mean go to New York and ask. I know it's hard for anyone to realize, but there are people that will kill you just as easy as say hi to you. I lived in Houston, I saw these things everyday.

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What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq?

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You're serious I can tell. Basically we were lied to. Research it.

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killed us all


Who's this 'Us' your injun buddy's referring to? The French? The Spanish? The English?




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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We have seen some monster changes in this country in the last year alone, none good, if you have any brains you better start learning how and defend yourself because it's going to get a lot worse in the next year, cops are quitting all over the US look that one up. No one will be there to protect you and yours but you.

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Terence Crutcher Shooting: Tulsa County District Attorney Charges Officer Shelby With Manslaughter
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/terence-crutcher-shooting-tulsa-county-district-attorney-charges-officer-shelby-n652856

thank you for your protection
/sarcasm





http://myimpressionz.tk

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I dunno...if I was the majority Shias who were crushed for decades under the boot of the Tikriti centric Sunni Goons--IE: A Minority of a Minority--I'd be kinda happy to see the powers that be get 'capped'; Imagine Iran or Russia 'liberating' Ferguson or Baltimore from racist white cops...









Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Yes, but what if the cure is worse than the disease? Saddam was a thoroughly rotten character, but no one who is being honest would deny that he was a stabilizing force not just in Iraq but in the Middle East as a whole. That is just how screwed up that whole part of the world is. The very best thing America could do is stay the hell out of there and take the money it would normally use for military adventurism and put it toward energy independence.

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Or use the saved money to pay off our national debt

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You are missing the point; the 'insurgents' (When they weren't foreign born Hajis playing terrorist touristas) were like the boers in South Africa-they belonged to a minority of a minority & they wanted power back or at least keep the Shias in their place. IN the end THEY collaborated with the West because they got tired of AQ touristas 'marrying' their 10 year old daughters as 'war brides'.

Now...if You are saying 'MYOB' that might even be something I could get aboard with.



Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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MYOB is exactly what I'm saying. The whole Middle East is a hornets' nest. Beat it with a stick and expect to get stung. It's hard to blame the bees for just being bees.

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Putting the money towards energy independance is one of those groomed answers. But that would not have "worked" for Iraq because the real purpose of our being their was to subdue Saddam for Israel.

Sure, we can turn our back on Israel and go buy more solar panels. Iraq war was "for" Israel.

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No way to pay off the debt, 50% of America is not working and the other 50% don't want to work and all drawing some kind of money from the government and on pain pills

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No of course not, what on earth are you talking about? If I lived in an appalling dictatorship and a bunch of democratic countries liberated us, deposed the dictator and tried install a free and democratic society I would welcome them with open arms (and most Iraqis did). What do you think we did in Western Europe in WW1/WW2 or to South Korea etc?

I would certainly not become an insurgent and murder my neighbours for being different to me and plant bombs in the local mosque/market to slaughter 100s because I am a religious zealot who wants a theocratic tyranny!

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What makes you think that the majority of Iraqis even WANTED democracy? Your thinking is the same as the neocons. They also drew parallels between the Middle East and Nazi-occupied Europe, and that was the fatal flaw of the whole campaign. Democracy is not the answer for every culture, and particularly not when it comes at the barrel of a gun.
And how do you know that all the insurgents were motivated by a desire for theocracy? Maybe many of them were people whose families had been killed by the bombings, were (to say the least) understandably upset, and had nothing left to lose or live for.

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You say Neocon like it's a bad thing? Your attitude is 'They're not white' so they don't deserve freedom? You'd have made a great Victorian!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPfNemu5Gac

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=iraq+topple+saddam+statue&&view=detail&mid=DBB9CA3CCE41B1697734DBB9CA3CCE41B1697734&FORM=VRDGAR

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=iraqis+celebrate+saddams+death&&view=detail&mid=66A260F9D078C79119C966A260F9D078C79119C9&FORM=VRDGAR

Yes, people killed in bombings by the opposing faction and wanted revenge. But no, the terrorists in Iraq were out to establish their own brand of theocratic tyranny, AQ and Isis, their violence continues after the allies withdrawal.

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It has nothing to do with the fact that they aren't white. It has everything to do with profound and intractable cultural differences. The majority of Iraqis didn't know what to do with democracy once they got it, and by any objective standards the country is in worse shape now (safety-wise) than it was under Saddam. America is worse off as well. We are indebted to the tune of several trillion dollars to the countries that helped finance the war -- primarily China -- and that debt hangs over our heads like Damocles' sword.
But seeing as how these debates still rage to this day between the neocons and the anti-interventionists, I don't think we're going to solve the issues in this forum. Let's just say that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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'Agree to disagree' is a cop out!

Iraqis are better off today, more prosperous with freedom of travel and hope for the future. And who really knows what to do with democracy? It took 700 years between Magna Carta and universal suffrage.

Your question was would I be an insurgent? The answer is no, they are the problem, I believe in freedom and democracy, so should you.

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damned zionist lies and propanganda


Baghdad suicide bombing kills 115; ISIL claims responsibility in july 2016

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/07/03/iraq-car-bombs-terrorist-attacks-islamic-state-baghdad/86651544/

Iraqi's believe US and Israel are arming ISIL






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Why?

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You evidently feel some need to keep this debate going, but I have nothing to add to what I've already said. I still maintain that your position does not hold water. Drawing parallels between Iraq under Saddam to Western Europe under the Nazis is a totally specious comparison. Unlike Europe, Iraq was never a Western-style democracy. And I don't know where you're getting your information about Iraqis being better off today -- some article by Bill Kristol, Elliot Abrahms, John Bolton, Norman Podhoretz, or their ilk?

And I totally believe in freedom and democracy. It is just not the answer for every culture at all times, and certainly not when it is forced.

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Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to flee the field?

Saddam was a vile dictator and Iraq now has a chance for freedom. And I'm afraid I haven't heard of any of the authors you've named.

Would I be an insurgent? Hell no.

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>> Saddam was a vile dictator

No argument from me on that. But he was still a stabilizing force in the hell that is the Middle East.

>> I haven't heard of any of the authors you've named

Well... then I have to question your ability to make a truly informed argument on this particular subject.

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None of those names sound Arab;


That's like learning about Vietnam from Chomsky....let it be said that the North Viet commies have opened up their archives to historians so 'the whole story can be told'...let's just say, THEIR information was very different from Chomsky & Zinn.






Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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>> That's like learning about Vietnam from Chomsky

Um, no, it's the exact opposite of that. The names I mentioned are a sampling of the hardcore neocons who vehemently supported the Iraq war.

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[deleted]

No feed back from Ay-rabians, then? Too soon, I guess.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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I'm not sure how useful the feedback would be, at least according to our Western standards. Remember, we're talking about HUGE cultural differences. What may strike us as "tyrannical" might strike someone from that culture as "safe and secure". Are our standards wrong? Are theirs? Best we let them live their own lives. If they move towards a more democratic society, great! If not, no skin off our nose.

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precisely...as a society it's still kind of...'tribal' & authority is wielded by threat or use of violence. I had a good friend when I went to college in Greece. Her family was 'connected' to the Jordanian Ruling Family; she made it abundantly clear that even a moderate guy like King Hussein had to have a brutal secret police force in place to keep 'the crazies' under boot.





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Anyway as an 'idea' creating an 'Arab' representative democracy in the Mid East was probably a good one. One of the big 'bitchin' points' the handwringing set has is how the US 'only supports dictatorships' (like we have any choice in that matter) so a democratic nation would (IF successful) be a 'beacon of hope' for the rest of the ME. Naturally I hoped it would 'take' but clearly hardly anybody in the neighborhood wanted it to succeed-Not Syria, Not The Saudis, Not the Iranians & not the lefties in the US/West. And of course the 'educated secular' classes in Iraq were nearly all Sunnis (or even Tikritis) who had no interest in 'sharing power'. Maybe if we hung around for as long as we did in Japan, Korea or Germany it might have been different.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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>> Maybe if we hung around for as long as we did in Japan, Korea or Germany it might have been different.

Middle East culture is different from Japanese and Korean culture, and VERY different from German culture -- just look at the horrible problems the European countries are having with the non-assimilation of ME peoples. We would have had to remain an occupying force for generations -- centuries, even -- until all the previous blood feuds and hatred between Sunni & Shi'a had been lost to history. Let's just say it would never happen. Britain threw in the towel on their mandate in Palestine, we threw in the towel in Iraq. The ME simply cannot be controlled.

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The ME simply cannot be controlled.


Not by Westerners....but by the Ottomans? A different mindset. Anyway, the only power that ever made a lasting impression on the Muslim/MidEast/Central Asian world were the Mongols--and they 'pacified' the place by mass killing. EVEN now, the locals still remember.


Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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What you say is true... though I do think that the area was much easier to control when most of the people were still living in tents and dealing with petty tribal squabbles. Once oil entered the picture, all bets were off.

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>> I haven't heard of any of the authors you've named

Well... then I have to question your ability to make a truly informed argument on this particular subject.



Well then surely that boosts my credibility in regard to this subject? That I am not viewing it from the perspective of a narrow and isolated political opinion? Unlike some other people....?

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it was Bush's idea to spread democracy in Iraq. He was putting together excuses, like WMD, to weaken Saddam so that he would stop his meglomania and lobbing missiles at Tel Aviv.

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The war wasnt about what the Iraqi's wanted. It was about what Israel wanted. Israel used Mossad to piggyback an attack plan on the USA. They piggybacked on an Arab plan to bomb New York. Mossad sent agents there to film the event and they reported what they filmed on Israeli TV. It is on YouTube. This "Pearl Harbor event" is what Bush used to get the USA into Iraq. The owner of the World Trade Center made about a 4 billion dollar profit on the destruction of the buildings. Also, the records tracing 2.3 trillion dollars reported by Rumsfield on 9/10/2001 on TV (see you tube) were all destroyed at the Pentagon with a cruise missle hitting the office of Rabbi Dov Zakheim who resigned soon afterward.

The US is the muscle puppet of Israel. The recent billboard saying "Make America First, not Israel" is a sign of the times.

Trump will restore some order yo the MidEast. He should force Israeli to create a state for the Palestianians.

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