that it didnt really fit the show. It seemed to attempt a poetic turn that didnt follow from the structure and tone of the series. Nothing wrong with the finale if we had been watching a different kinda show all these years. For that reason I found the finale more unsatisfying than profound.
shareThe finale fit the show perfectly. If you go back to the ending of every season, you'll see that they ended pretty much the same - simply, fairly realistic and open ended.
Everyone seems to have expected a big showdown, but this show went for realism as much as possible. It did feel a bit rushed, but I liked it for its simplicity.
> Everyone seems to have expected a big showdown, but this show went for realism as much as possible. It did feel a bit rushed, but I liked it for its simplicity.
The usual TV finale would have had a big showdown, plus tying up as many loose ends as possible. We'd have heard about what happened to every little character who had passed through P&E's lives over the years -- followups on Stan's son, Kimmy, et cetera -- and it would have been about four hours long, . (Anyone else here old enough to remember the final episode of MASH? Ugh.) I'm also glad they didn't do something like that.
This isn't specific to this episode, but I also liked how they used the teasers of next week's episode to misdirect the audience. The week before, a preview clip of the finale showed Pastor Tim and Stan talking. I thought, well, there it is; Timmy certainly knows enough to sink them, and that's going to be part of their downfall. But it turned out to be nothing. As far as the episode itself, the conversation with Timmy was completely unnecessary, but having it in the preview of the finale did get me thinking of some wrong ideas; far from being the first time they've surprised me that way.
I agree...I thought it was completely poetic and true to the tone of the show. It had its irony..
And the confrontation with Stan was far more realistic to me than any showdown.
It didn't wrap up every little detail because (short of death) that's not how life is. Every question isn't answered and there will be ambiguity. Things will not happen as you always think they should or expect them to.
I kind of hate the current trend of draining the life out of everything by trying to cross every t and/or serializing everything until it has no breath and leaves nothing behind to think or wonder about.
Let me spell out my views.
First, there is a big showdown. The scene in the parking garage is that showdown. That's the climax.
Stan's been bearing down on them. He's not blindsided in that moment in the garage. He's invaded their home, told others of his suspicions, and thinks enough to plan a stakeout. But yet we're to believe that he's going to wilt in that confrontation b/c of stuff like "you were my best friend"?! It doesnt follow from his professional background, knowledge of the murders and attack on his country that he'd fall prey to Philip's instant mind meld. Again, he knew who they were when he walked into that garage. He wasnt caught off guard. Two sides of the same coin in our work -- plus we drank a few beers together -- isnt going to change Stan's mind. The emotional tie is unearned. Not realistic either.
And about Philip and Elizabeth in that same moment: The show has featured them taking extreme measures on people, highly trained and working like well oiled, lethal machines. Yes, Philip has been dialed back but he was still helping Elizabeth on a mission that involved gun play and dismemberment. And Elizabeth has had more recent, more mild misgivings, but she also stabbed someone in the neck on the sidewalk to get Paige's ID back. But now, when they're trying to escape the country, at the climax of the show, they're not going to get physical once they realize what Stan is there for? Elizabeth wouldnt have a firearm as part of her "go bag"? And she wouldnt use it in an eye blink now that they MUST flee? Again, it doesnt follow. Stan cant let them go that way. And they cant allow themselves to be taken.
And now Paige: She freaks out when she discovered that her mother used sex in her work, but now murder is revealed by Stan, right? But Paige barely reacts to that news? Paige has been portrayed as a naive idealist but suddenly hardens enough to that news to join her parents to help break Stan's mind by bringing up Henry instead?
cont.
And then there's Henry: Henry had been nearly written off the show with this prep school stuff. So for me, the emotional trigger attempted in leaving him isnt felt. We barely know the kid, and his interactions as part of this family have been greatly diminished already. The scene at the phone booth, or when Stan sits down with him, carries little weight since the character himself has carried so little weight in the show.
All in all, I think so much of the finale is unearned and/or didnt follow from the events and characterization. I didnt need a Bonnie & Clyde hail of bullets climax -- but I needed something that felt more connected to what we've been watching. The garage scene didnt play for me. And as a consequence, neither did the conclusion and epilogue.
Dmac - agreed re Henry. He’s going to be all alone!! Um, he’s been alone for most of the show, and he’s not even living at home anymore. Why are they suddenly thinking they’ll miss him?
shareStan in the garage -- He's been letting his personal feelings warp his work judgment all along. There's Nina. There's Oleg. And on the flip side, he murdered that USSR guy as revenge for Amador. So his letting P&E get away isn't entirely out of character.
Now ask yourself these questions:
If he went to Paige's apartment intending to arrest them, why did he go alone? When arresting violent and dangerous criminals, any real LEO would bring more force than necessary; overwhelming force, in fact.
Why didn't he tell anyone else where he was going? Shouldn't he have done that?
Once he got to the point where he felt it necessary to draw his weapon, shouldn't he have immediately ordered them to get their hands up, turn away from him, drop to their knees, etc? Why did he instead allow them to remain as they were -- standing, with complete freedom of movement, outnumbering him, and far enough apart that he couldn't possibly watch all of them simultaneously?
And for that matter, why at that point was he still having any sort of conversation with them at all? If he's there simply to arrest them, what's the point?
I don't know what Stan's motives were for going to Paige's apartment. Maybe to just find out the truth? Maybe the personal confrontation? I dunno. But I think it's clear that he did not set out, with an unconflicted mind, to arrest them; then suddenly change his mind because of an "instant mind meld."
To be continued ...
P&E not fighting back -- Attacking a trained professional who already has his weapon drawn and pointed at you lies somewhere between "very risky" and "idiotic." And Paige's presence complicates things. Even if P&E were thinking about shooting, they'd have to realize there would be a good chance of Paige being hit. But overall, look at everything about Stan's actions. I think they realized their best tactic was to keep him talking.
Paige's barely reacting is kinda weird, although she shows later that she's become more cunning and calculating than I think any of us viewers have given her credit for. But as for her standing with P&E, I don't think that's weird at all. Her feelings toward them seem to be ambivalent; they're still her mom and dad, even if they are scum. But let's say she hates their guts. Well, I've known families where some members bitterly hated each other but would stand together against outsiders. So her actions aren't a surprise to me.
Henry ... I wonder why the writers cut his role so dramatically a few years back. At first I thought it was a classic case of a show not knowing what to do with a child actor once the kid hit puberty. Then I thought, maybe it was some other problem with Keidrich Sellati? (No idea if that's the case.) But now I'm wondering if it was intentional for another reason. Let's face it, Henry hasn't really been a part of the family from the moment P&E let Paige in on the big secret. Ever since then, he's been an obstruction to be worked around -- can't discuss the family business until he's out of the room. He hasn't shared in the family's important triumphs, worries, etc. If the writers were trying to demonstrate that, to show that Henry's isn't a "real Jennings," for lack of a better way of putting it, they did it very well IMO.
"P&E not fighting back" "between "very risky" and "idiotic""
So much of what they've done in this series would fall under that category. This is IT. They're "on the run". P "got caught". Just Stan showing up there might make them act. The E we've seen might've connected the dots in that moment and immediately drawn on Stan. The idea that this last mission, an escape mission, would result in less extreme measures doesnt follow. They're highly trained. We've seen them pull off crazy things throughout the show, taking extreme risks and doing idiotic things that strain our suspension of disbelief. E stabbed a guy on the sidewalk to get Paige's ID back. They cant be taken in. It cant happen. Sorry Stan, you cant shoot both of them at the same moment.
"Paige's barely reacting is kinda weird"
She called her mother a slut for using her body. That's not someone who's matured to what's going on here -- certainly not to a pile of dead bodies for the cause. And pouring herself a vodka shot? C'mon. It wasnt earned.
"Henry"
All true. But my point is that those three abandoning him doesnt carry any weight for those same reasons. The show had already abandoned him. The emotional impact isnt there. It's supposed to be a rough scene at the phone booth -- but it doesnt hit hard at all when you dont feel that they've been strongly connected to him. He's a sidelight but then they needed to deal with the son and brother in the end. The attempted tug at the heart strings falls flat. The depth of loss they're trying to make you feel is unearned.
If Stan was some random dude from the FBI, then yeah I could see them trying to draw on him and gunning him down in cold blood if need be. In that case they'd know there was zero chance of talking their way out of it.
But like you said, Paige hadn't even matured to the point of being able to handle her mom sleeping with sources she's working. She was hardly ready to handle watching one of her parents gun down this guy who'd become close to the family without very possibly freaking out, breaking down, and becoming a major liability to their hopes to escape. Elizabeth was still trying to lie to Stan about killing people solely because Paige was there. She certainly wasn't going to consider trying to gun down Stan due to how Paige would likely react.
Also the fact that Stan didn't insist on forcing them to the ground right away might have given them indication that they stood a chance talking their way out of it.
So P&E not fighting back made sense to me in light of the circumstances.
What didn't ring true to me is that Stan would let them go considering the depth of betrayal he must have felt upon learning who they really were.
But they have to escape. Paige isnt ready for any of this. Suddenly fleeing for Russia, leaving her brother and her life in the US, is all beyond what we've seen for her. It's an extreme situation and they cant be brought in. Just seeing Stan, an FBI agent who's been asking questions of P lately, strangely showing up there at that moment, should trigger a reaction that's on the same level as other things they've done. Even if they didnt kill Stan, they should've drawn on him immediately. They cant let themselves be stopped at that point. With their training, they'd be quick to act to continue their flight. They'd be packing and ready do anything. Capture is a more dire consequence than having to explain more to Paige.
And P&E not admitting to killing was for more than Paige. It was a continued attempt to manipulate Stan with doubt -- but it should never have worked in the slightest way.
I disagree on your take on their training. As spies their trained instinct would be to first attempt deception and only kill as a last resort. We saw this consistently throughout the series.
Just off the top of my head the general that had Elizabeth at gunpoint at the beginning of the season she was trying to squeeze for the radiation detector immediately comes to mind. Similar standoff, he had her at distance and she talked her way into being able to inch close enough to make a sudden move and wrestle him to the ground. We also saw how Paige broke protocol and ran to the scene of the crime, and how shook up about it she was afterwards. This was over someone she didn't even know, I think Elizabeth had a good enough read on Paige to know that gunning down Stan would have turned her hysterical. And as we've seen with Paige, nothing good can come from her when she gets hysterical.
Nor would Stan let them get close enough unlike the fatal mistake of that general. Philip made an initial attempt to approach him but he sensed it immediately and told him to back off. If either of them tried to charge him 10-15 feet away, that would be the easiest shot in the world at a rapidly approaching target when he's got his firearm already drawn and pointed right at them. That's more of a suicide mission if either had tried to fight.
It makes sense to me they went with their spy instinct to initially attempt deception. They had not exhausted that option yet.
Like I said, they didnt have to kill him. But their training would make them read Stan's not-so-coincidental presence immediately as something to be acted upon in their new context. And they'd be packing sidearms for sure as part of their escape protocol. That little rush that P tried is an attempt to cover for the flaw in the writing here. This is IT. Unlike any prior situation on the show. They're on the run. They cant allow themselves to be brought in. E stabbed someone to death on the sidewalk to get an ID back. But they wont point weapons at Stan to get away? They dont have to get close to do that -- even though they've displayed all kinds of physical maneuvers in impossible situations throughout the show.
And they're not going to risk being taken in at that moment simply to prevent Paige's upset -- as if Paige being taken in by FBI wouldnt bring hysterics itself. Stan didnt have the drop on them with weapon drawn. He came at them in a very risky and casual way. That was an opening that their training would recognize. The P&E we've been watching would've had him on the ground instead, with their own weapons immediately drawn, in this do-or-die moment. Stan cant shoot both of them at the same time. He'd be choked out and zip tied or something rather than this chit chat approach with an FBI agent whom they would know is already on to them simply b/c of his appearance at that place at that time. The deception angle would've been over. It was absurd that it would be applied in that moment. More absurd that it worked on an FBI agent who knows what knows. Instead, the whole scene seemed contrived to have that long dialogue between the primary characters of the show.
Paige in hysterics starts to talk. She was utterly unsuited for the work in the first place, but she's even more unsuited to keep her mouth closed when hysterical. Watching Stan get gunned down would be more likely induce her to run away from them than to get her to stay in my opinion. I see the dead weight of a hysterical Paige as the greatest existential threat to their successful escape.
Sure, of course they've shown them doing utterly super spy remarkable escapes in the past. That doesn't make disarming him from fifteen feet away without killing him any less likely or improbable, and would in my opinion be more in line with the cheesiness of their super spy feats of the past. But when you pull your firearm you're taught to shoot to kill. So I don't really buy that they'd be pulling their arms to wound him. I also don't like their chances if they bull rushed him either. One of them gets taken out by gunfire, the other one is going to have a much harder time zip tying him alone. And what then when Paige is going into hysterics?
Again, I'd expect them to fall back on their spy training that at first they'd try deception before killing as a last resort. I really don't see why you keep making out this confrontation as IT as if the circumstances would force them to kill first without trying deception, probably because I don't share your opinion the deception angle is "absurd". Why is it so absurd? They had formed a bond with Stan over the previous six years, and much of what Philip said to him was genuine too. Philip knew Stan was a sentimental guy to the point he had overlooked the many telltale signs because he was blinded by their friendship. So why is deception so absurd? If deception failed they could have always fallen back to violence. But talking worked. Philip challenged him by saying he wouldn't get on the ground but he's getting in his car. I think Philip knew Stan well enough to know he wouldn't be gunned down in cold blood. That Stan might try to take him in but not kill him unless Phil initiated violence. If Stan had come over and tried to force him to the ground, THAT'S when I expect they would have made their move.
Yet they told Paige they were going to Russia. They didnt have to upset her with that either. They could tell her that they're not really leaving her brother. They could tell her they're lying low for a while across the border. They laid out the reality of the situation instead -- but in a moment like that they'll consider her reaction more than what they need to do to escape? Paige's emotions are not the existential threat. Stan is. He needs to be subdued like they've done to so many others in an eye blink. Keeping Paige calm by hoping you're gonna talk Stan out of it at this point strains our suspension of disbelief. Stan's got them. If there's ever a moment in the show where super spy stuff would've applied, it's in that moment. 2 against 1, no less.
And they dont have to wound him. Draw on him on sight and you're in control. You make him get on the ground. They're on the run and FBI Stan just happens to approach them then? Everyone knows the score at that moment. That's when they act without hesitation. They're not going to try to this talking approach when they know Stan knows about them and their lies. The bond is already broken. It's been a sham but Stan is gonna bite on more of that now? With all that blood on their hands? IF anything, he'd be enraged. He's FBI but they turn him into Martha at the end? P was never his best friend. All the shock of the realization would've occurred before he walks into that garage. He knows they're full of sht but then they think he'll buy more of it? And he does?? Deception is absurd at that point b/c Stan now knows you're a spy who's been deceiving him all along. The jig is up now. Stan found us out. So let's try lying some more after he discovered that we're liars, spies and murderers of people he recruited? Why would he bite at that point? Why would they think he'd bite at that point? It's just for the scene. They tried to make it profound by excluding the physical and having a long, dialogue heavy scene instead.
I actually do think he was P's best friend. I just re-watched that scene and I think Rhys delivered that part of the dialog like it was supposed to be genuine. He really was miserable and living a shitty life that we saw. Stan was the only guy he could talk to at all.
Again, I see a hysterical Paige as their greatest existential threat. Obviously they haven't admitted the killing part because they know she can't handle it and they're right. They have less control over her than Stan because they can't and won't kill her and can't control her and reason with her when she hits that state. What are they going to do, drug her, tie her up, and smuggle her out of the country? No way. I see her presence as the ultimate reason why they're going to talk first and shoot later and all the other reasons I mentioned. I'm quite glad we didn't get the super spy stuff of P&E disarming a Stan with an aimed firearm pointed right at them from 15 feet away. I would have hated the finale if that happened and it definitely would have increased the amount I'd have to suspend disbelief and my dislike of the series overall.
I also think you're grossly underestimating the fact Stan had a strong bond to Henry, which also was likely to increase P&E's chances of reasoning with Stan. That'd be a great way to destroy an innocent Henry to learn his parents killed Stan or the other way around. Yes, his life is going to be turned upside down anyway, but it'd be far worse if he learned his parents gunned down Stan in cold blood or Stan killed one or both of his parents while trying to apprehend them.
I dont see it that way. And we both saw P attempt to rush him. What was he going to do to his "best friend" in front of Paige? I saw P as trying to pitch something to mirror Stan's life. Some truth to it? Sure, that's how good lies work. But the goal of that sermon is only to escape. Again, far fetched to me, and with the action-oriented E we know only watching on, more so.
And again, they already told Paige stuff that she'd be upset about. They're going to try to lie to Stan AGAIN but they didnt lie to Paige about Russia or leaving Henry? There's no reason to reveal all that if they have the same hysterics worry you're talking about. Why not keep her in the dark until later? She's seen her mother take extreme measures. She's trained with mother to deal with extreme situations. But now they cant strut their usual stuff to escape b/c Paige might get upset? Once you tell her your life in the US is now over, you've passed a point. The circumstances have changed. Everything is in play now. Now Russia, bye bye Henry forever, on the run, are all extremely upsetting to be suddenly thrust upon her -- but that's what they did. They havent held back now to keep her calm.
And like most of this, I've already said my piece on Henry. You're saying that Stan has a bond, right? But his family doesnt? Again, extreme circumstances. E was right. They had to take Henry too. But they set it up to give Stan a surrogate son as part of his epilogue. It's all contrived for a scenario that would not have played out that way when we think of how these people operate. You liked it, fine. I dont think it fits the show. They made a creative choice to stuff profundity in a talky scene in the garage. I didnt find it satisfying. We're picking apart that moment but to me that should not have been the scene to begin with. With Stan's suspicion confirmed, he'd never approach them alone. They're dangerous. You alone cant toy with them. And FBI Stan buying more lies from known liars and relenting? No
P didn't "attempt to rush him". He just took some tentative steps forward to try and close the gap between them which was immediately noticed by Stan and told to back off. There were no sudden moves. That obviously failed, so of course they're going to try and talk their way out of it. The chances of taking him down without one of them also going down with a firearm pointed right at him is practically zero otherwise.
You seem to think telling Paige about moving to Russia can be any way similar in the emotional impact of watching her parents kill Stan. It's not. Her slut shaming her mom proves she wasn't even able to handle that. So how would she handle watching her parents kill Henry's mentor and close family friend they've seen almost daily for the last six years?
In my opinion there's absolutely NO WAY she doesn't break down into an uncontrollable wreck right then and there. I just can't conceive of her reacting in any other way. I think her parents had to have this likely reaction from her on their mind too should they opt for violence.
Anyway, my point is that it makes sense to me why they'd try deception first and deploy violence as a last resort because it's consistent with their MO throughout the series. You think the finality of the scene demands an exception as to why they'd break protocol and decades of training and experience. I just don't see it. IMO there's no reason for them to go on a suicide run trying to bull rush Stan when they had a better chance appealing to his sentimentality. Bull rushing guarantees one of them shot and likely killed, the other with a tossup chance of overpowering an armed Stan, and even if that's successful now you've got a hysterical Paige going ape shit about the dead or dying parent. Then what? Terrible idea. If he tries to force them to the ground, then they have a chance of both surviving in close quartered combat. But talking worked.
I agree Stan never would have approached them alone in the first place, but seeing that he did I think their actions made sense in context. Deception was the least worst gambit when there were no good options.
Yes, to close the gap. Close the gap to do what in front of Paige? If the thought of some physical confrontation that could end any which way is deemed too much for Paige to handle, why close the gap? He was willing to go there but the writing closed off that option after two steps. Paige's potential hysterics didnt stop him from trying to get closer to do something beyond talking.
And no, moving to Russia isnt on the level of killing Stan. But none of these other bombs were necessary to drop. Again, it's contrived. There's nothing for Paige to react to at all unless we have the drama of her parents saying we're on the run to Russia and we're leaving your brother forever. They didnt have to reveal the finality of this to her until later. She freaked out at her mother's sex, but they'll drop these bombs on her without fear of hysterics?! They've deceived everyone including Paige. Why not keep her in the dark longer about their endgame?
And you keep ignoring the gravity of this situation. EXCEPTIONAL is exactly what this is. P had been caught. They're on the run. Stan has put the the puzzle together. This is IT. It's the climax of their time as spies. It's not merely undesirable to get caught. They CANT be taken in. That's not an option. Like Stan said, "It's over". That makes it unlike anything we've watched. It's the most dire, most heightened moment of their careers. The one person who knows the most about their lies is standing in front of them -- and he's FBI. But try more BS is the tactic? The last person who would buy their BS at that point is Stan. And he knows what's up before he approaches. He's not an oblivious guy caught off guard who might fall for their manipulative talk shtick. Their protocol would be extreme for fleeing and dealing with this FBI obstacle who has them dead to rights. Well, we all might go down here with BS talk -- but we dont want to upset our spy-in-training kid with more -- is absurd. At that moment, Stan is the ultimate threat.
I agree it's contrived because I never bought that Paige was the type who could successfully be groomed. But since this show is about family trying to raise nextgen illegals I understand why it was incorporated.
So that being done, I just don't see the 'moving to Russia' producing hysterics because they had already been gradually exposing her to Marxist ideology and indoctrinating her in those sessions with E & handler sitting around watching Soviet propaganda films. It's safe to assume her parents fed her a highly sanitized view of the Soviet Union that she understood as a Marxist utopia not unlike how many naive college aged radicals saw it in that time. So it's plausible enough to me that would have buffered any hysterics about moving there.
And we already saw plenty of hysterics from a resistant Paige when she learned Henry wouldn't be going along before she reluctantly followed them down to the garage on the verge of tears. The possibility of hysterical Paige running away if they killed Stan had to be on their mind as Stan approached them.
You think it was contrived because they didn't have to tell her about Henry and leaving to Russia. I don't because we've already seen her throw even greater hysterics upon learning when her parents lie to her. How else could they credibly explain they had to leave immediately giving her only time to pack a backpack, pick up fake passports, wear disguises, and sneak across the border? Feeding her an unbelievable story would have made it harder.
Talking = least worst option because no one dies and if it doesn't work they can always fall back on violence. Your replies never seem to take this latter point into account. It's NOT either/or.
Bullrushing = Worst option. High likelihood one parent dies, guarantees hysterical Paige.
Drawing arms = High likelihood *someone* dies, maybe even Paige. If she's not dead she's hysterical over who dies.
P in striking distance changes equation because it's possible no one dies. All the more reason to talk until escape or Stan APPROACHES THEM to arrest them.
I think the leap from imagining a life in the US to suddenly fleeing for Russia for good is greater than you say. But I'll just leave it at that.
But you still didnt account for Paige's reaction to whatever P would've done with a few more steps closer to Stan. P sure didnt care enough not to try. All the things you fear happening to trigger Paige could've happened if he got as close as he wanted to be. P went into his mind meld approach only AFTER trying to close the gap and failing. If what you say is true, he'd pass on steps towards Stan. Talking doesnt require closing the gap. If you're worried about Paige, you dont even try. His steps made Stan draw his gun. That's exactly the escalation you said they'd try to avoid with Paige being there.
And on the rest, like I said long ago, the E we've been watching would draw on Stan on sight. He doesnt belong there. And they'd read that in a heartbeat. That doesnt mean killing on sight. It means making of sure of having control in this most exceptional situation. Two of them against one Stan who strolls in without his weapon drawn. IMO, too late for words for an FBI obstacle. They need to keep moving. And he cant let them go knowing what he knows. How they resolved that clash of motive didnt follow. He's killed for revenge already but now he'd be hypnotized by liar P's rap? I dont buy it. He wouldnt be susceptible after the thought process that led him to that moment. The shock of the realization would be long over by then. Not to mention his own FBI training to deal with those situations himself. "It's over" is right. It should've been over instead of letting them go based on what P said. The bond would've been broken before he walked into that garage. They're liars. They're spies with a body count. And no one should know that more than FBI agent Stan Beeman in that moment. The writing castrated him instead.
It's hard to stick the landing in these final seasons.
Other than that, I'll say no more.
I did address Paige. I was running out of space but tried to imply it in my last few lines:
"P in striking distance changes equation because it's possible no one dies. All the more reason to talk until escape or Stan APPROACHES THEM to arrest them."
If they had been in striking distance, like P was trying to do by approaching him, it changes the equation because it would have given them the chance to disarm Stan without the high likelihood of someone dying and triggering Paige.
Attacking Stan immediately from that distance carried a high likelihood of someone dying and triggering Paige.
You keep saying they don't have to kill him, but that they would have drawn on sight. You can't have it both ways. When you draw you're trained to shoot to kill. And with all 3 of them going for their weapon at the same time, someone is going to get shot and likely die. Paige gets triggered and runs, and then what? They're going to drug her and smuggle her out of the country?
And I couldn't disagree more that Elizabeth would have immediately known to spring into attacking Stan the moment he entered the garage when they weren't even aware yet why he was there because he had no backup with him. Attacking him immediately would have been reckless and gone against everything they're trained to do. And once Stan engaged with Philip and showed he was actually listening and responding to what Philip was saying it would have become clear to both P&E that they at least stood a chance of talking their way out of it, and once again IF IT DIDN'T WORK THEY COULD RESORT TO VIOLENCE WHEN HE APPROACHED WITHIN STRIKING DISTANCE to arrest them to increase their odds.
You're overlooking the fact that he killed for revenge but was deeply troubled by it and regretted doing it. You're talking like he wouldn't hesitate blowing away Philip because of that random Soviet he killed instead of trying to take him in. I just think you're completely wrong on this, he didn't have a 6 year friendship with the other guy he killed. He had reason to want to confront and talk to Philip and I don't think he had it in him to kill Philip in cold blood. The worst is he tries to take them in when Philip could make a move, and Philip knew that.
Like you've said, the scene itself is contrived because a Stan that had figured it all out and was determined to take them in would have had backup. But since he showed up alone it revealed weakness in Stan's character that could be manipulated because he didn't want to believe it. I think P&E acted utterly appropriately given the circumstances.
"P in striking distance changes equation because it's possible no one dies"
And possible that someone does die or gets hurt. If Paige's emotional state is the key to their escape as you suggest, P shouldnt take that risk BEFORE his long speech. The thought of physical violence came to P BEFORE the fallback plan to mind fvck Stan. That doesnt match what you keep asserting as the pecking order. And it's painfully obvious that this isnt written with Paige's emotional management as the focal point. Divulging all they did without care for her reaction doesnt follow that line of thinking. And no, some naive college kid musing about Russia cant be conflated with suddenly fleeing the country and the law as spies and abandoning her brother forever. You scoff at the notion of selling her a different story yet THAT's WHAT THEY DO ALL THE TIME IN THIS SHOW. It's not hard to tell Paige it's only temporary – or that someone is picking up Henry and we'll meet him later – or any number of other lies at that initial stage. This finale isnt written around Paige's emotional management as its logical center. There wasnt a peep from her when a gun is drawn on her father. (and it's not “when you draw, you shoot to kill”, it's IF you draw, be prepared to shoot. IF you shoot, shoot to kill. Stan drawing stopped an approach. Just like it could've if E drew on Stan. ) P's show summarizing speech is what the writers needed to get to somehow. Stan approaching alone and everything else is contrived to get to that dialogue to spell it all out in words like a soap opera. That's a creative choice that didnt work for me. To each his own.
cont.
“And once Stan engaged with Philip and showed he was actually listening and responding to what Philip was saying it..."
Again, you just ignored the gap closing attempt that came BEFORE 90% of the talk. If talk comes first, and violence comes last, why did P try that so early? The friend/job/mind meld comes ONLY AFTER that failed attempt. He was ready to throw down against FBI Stan, “best friend” neighbor, and do it front of Paige BEFORE the mirroring mind fvck. Not to mention the risk of being shot in the attempt. Using your logic, P's feet should've been bolted to floor for Paige's emotional state until the last moment until talking failed. But he didnt do that. The Paige hysterics focus is yours more than the writers'.
“You're overlooking the fact that he killed for revenge but was deeply troubled by it...”
You're overlooking P&E's resume that Stan knows all too well before he reaches the garage. The emotions would've already been processed prior to that moment. He doesnt have to go in guns blazing – but the death toll and level of betrayal is far worse than the other scenario. This is that situation on steroids. The couple who Stan recruited is dead with a now orphaned child. He knows about the FBI body count in E's mission. The idea that he'd be soft on them b/c they were bogus friends playing a role, as they wreaked havoc on the side, is silly. It's unearned. Sharing a few beers in the kitchen with your faux friend doesnt wipe away what they've done. They're not buddies. Stan just thought they were. Now he knows the horrible reality but bites again anyway? It doesnt follow. He wouldnt be undermined at that moment. "It's over. It's all over." Yes, should've been.
I'm really done this time. To each his own.
Actually they didn't divulge everything to Stan because again, they continued to deny the killing because they clearly recognized the effect it would have on Paige after they just finished enduring one of her irrationally hysterical outbursts. You keep denying this, but I think it couldn't be more obvious they were acting fundamentally different than if it was just Stan confronting P&E. If it were just the two of them I see it far more likely they'd spring into action. Paige being there changed the equation. Paige has been an ever present existential threat ever since learning about them and they've learned to manage her, but that obviously has limits since she's their daughter and they can't kill her. You refuse to acknowledge this when it's clear the writers haven't seen it your way since the moment she blabbed to Pastor Tim. She's become their omnipresent existential threat.
And no, the scene wasn't written with Paige's emotional management as the focal point. The focal point was obviously getting out of the jam with Stan, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF TRIGGERING PAIGE or it defeats the purpose. They are spies and they are pros. They're clearly expert multi-taskers and never losing sight of the mission, which was to escape. That means not acting negligently managing Paige while they work Stan. You keep expecting they'll act like rank amateurs hyper focused on killing Stan because this is IT, yet they've proven many times already they are far from amateurs and can keep their heads under pressure.
You also seem to think a few tentative steps is a commitment to violence. It is not, it's just trying to better the odds if it's looking like all roads carries the risk of triggering Paige so he can pick the violence route that possibly might not trigger Paige. But if talking is yielding fruit Philip doesn't have to go there. So no, taking a few tentative steps in itself is not risking triggering Paige. Because again, Paige getting triggered is game over and P&E are all too aware of this. I also just can't buy your theory that telling her of moving carries the certainty of triggering her like watching Stan or one of her parents get gunned down. It just doesn't and is nowhere on the same level. It's plausible she doesn't get triggered by moving because she's been indoctrinated, it's not plausible at all she doesn't get triggered by watching her parents kill their longtime friend or one of her parents dying.
"Actually they didn't divulge everything to Stan "
I meant divulging all they did when they picked up Paige. If her emotions are this existential threat to their escape, you keep her in the dark as I've already said. But the writers didnt do that. They put pressure on Paige instead of avoiding it. There's no practical purpose in telling her she'll never see her brother again at that moment. But it's there -- for dramatic purposes -- to UPSET her.
And I never denied that they were lying about killing for both purposes. They didnt want her to know before and now never. But the writers CHOSE to have Stan spill the beans about it instead. Again, they put PRESSURE on Paige rather than avoiding it. He's FBI. He's credible. MORE UPSETTING news for PAIGE.
Upsetting her isnt avoided b/c it's so clearly written otherwise. In drama you apply pressure; you dont bypass it.
The writers wrote all this
-P&E tell Paige they're fleeing for Russia and H aint goin
-FBI Stan CATCHES P&E AND Paige as they flee with knowledge of who they really are
-Paige's DAD steps towards Stan. This makes Stan DRAW HIS GUN on him as Paige watches.
-Stan spills the beans about KILLINGS of which Paige is unaware
And you think the above is written with the idea that Paige being triggered must be avoided here?? They turn the screws on her. That's drama. Conflict rather than tip toe around. You completely ignore what's written as things that would rightly upset her. You pretend the only triggers are the things that didnt happen. That's absurd. It's right there in front of your eyes. But she held up. She didnt freak out. The writing provided triggers -- but she endured, and even participated in breaking Stan. That's how it's written.
The ultimate existential threat was Stan. An FBI agent who knows all, and with a gun pointed your way, is as existential as a threat can be. That's drama. When they drive towards him, he moves to the side. Their existential threat wilted under their wordy manipulation.
You're conflating the motives of the writers and the motives of P&E. Obviously they are not at all the same thing. Writers are going create drama and tension. The motives of the characters are going to be reflected in how the writers choose to have the characters respond to the scenes of drama and tension they construct for them.
But since you brought it up I think it's obvious the writers were ratcheting up tension on Paige because they had always portrayed her as an omnipresent existential threat and a big part of the show has been about the dynamics of how the success of P&E depends on their success in managing her. They're also aware their audience knows this because they've made it a continuing theme for numerous seasons. So for dramatic purposes I'd expect them to ratchet up tension to reveal the essential quagmire they were in because they couldn't kill Stan for fear of the failure to manage Paige and blowing the mission.
And again, I think your idea that they could have fed Paige a credible lie about why they had to wear disguises and leave the country in a rush and been able to persuade her to do so to be practically nil and would only make things worse when she wigs out at them for feeding her lies and wastes even more time throwing a shit fit in her apartment instead of getting on the road until they told her the truth. The writers already made the point that she's good at picking up on their lies. Sure, the writers can do anything they want. But it just wouldn't have been believable if they had her go along naively like she was still 15 and didn't know her parents were spies. They had already written her character as being less gullible to her parents lies than what you think she'd be susceptible to.
You went in a circle. The writers are the authors of the characters and their motivations based on their motivation --i,e, what they want to convey. The number one question an actor asks is "What's my motivation here?" They dont ask themselves. They ask the writer/director when they read the script. It's absurd to separate them. You say you cant conflate them yet you do in the next sentences.
Now you agree they're "ratcheting up tension". Of course. Before you were waving off everything they throw at Paige as a non-trigger. Russia forever? Who cares? She's indoctrinated. Leave your brother forever? Eh, let's skip that one. "Tentative steps" yet STAN DREW HIS GUN. Eh, let's not talk about that. Putting Paige's hysterics as the central theme and existential threat is absurd. The core premise is being spies under FBI Stan's nose. The ticking bomb in this series, prior to Paige even becoming a spy trainee, IS FBI STAN DISCOVERING THE TRUTH. The garage scene is the dramatic confrontation with Stan, that's the climax of the series -- not some other logline for the show like "P&E must manage Paige's emotions if they are ever to escape!". Stan is the road block. That's what we've been waiting for. That's the big cahuna. The showdown. Paige's stuff is a subplot. It's not the spine of the show. So painfully obvious. You dont come into this finale thinking how will they deal with Paige before how will they deal with Stan. To give the former first slot is silly in reality and in how this show is written. Being found out by the law has always been the existential threat. P getting caught is what triggered their flight. They didnt go on the run b/c Paige fvcked up. And there is no "but not at the expense of triggering Paige" here. That would be avoiding drama. But Paige hysterics vs escaping isnt the final conflict. They threw stuff at her and she held up. That's how it's written. Paige becomes calm in the garage. She even helps dissolve the REAL threat
cont
And one last time about picking up Paige.
That moment is the FIRST moment. PRE-DISGUISE. To get her outta there quickly you lie, lie, lie. "What about Henry?" "We're going to pick him up next." That's how simply you get her outta the apt. And to say she picks up on lies when she heard a gun shot and found her mother's blood splattered face over a dead guy -- yet buys the whole excuse -- is absurd. She doesnt need the entirety of the bad news at that moment to get her moving. But the writers included Russia forever and leave your brother forever to inspire the upset that you think wouldnt be present here. There's obvious attempts to trigger where you bizarrely see none at all. It couldnt be clearer. They wrote this for her to be tested and endure. That's the Paige subplot in this finale. It resolves in the garage before Stan lets them go. It's all 3 vs Stan in the final moment. She grows up right then and there.
Not buying it. If you think this show is about spying first you haven't been paying attention. Every interview I've ever read with show creator Joseph Weisberg and Joel Fields they've always reiterated this show is first and foremost about family that happens to be in the spy business, but family first. And you just haven't been paying attention if you haven't noticed how much time this show has spent on P&E managing Paige to mitigate her existential threat to themselves.
You also don't seem to be aware that being told Henry wasn't going DID TRIGGER HER seeing how they spent so much time barely coaxing her out of the apartment on the verge of tears where we the audience were never really sure she would make it out of the parking garage with them prior to Stan showing up. You should rewatch that apartment scene, she barely goes along. You're also ignoring that she ultimately gets triggered enough by Henry's absence to abandon them.
When asked by Vanity Fair whether they ever envisioned an ending of Stan bringing them in, Fields said the way they wrote the Stan confrontation is what they had in mind since Season 1. So no, if we're going by the motives of the authors Stan was not the greatest existential threat to them. The creators had always seen Stan as being too emotionally weak to bring them in, so it's safe to assume P&E knew that too and exploited it. That's why I'm pointing out your conflation. The authors write to achieve a certain aim, we can only assess whether what they wrote is *plausible* given what we know about the character and their development. So it's you that is waving off evidence you find inconvenient. Let me repeat, it's plausible she doesn't get triggered by moving because she's been indoctrinated, it's not plausible at all she doesn't get triggered by watching her parents kill their longtime friend or one of her parents dying. And you forgot altogether that she DID get triggered to the point of barely following them down to the garage. That's why P&E were very aware that resorting to violence where someone dies would break her fragile psyche when they were dealing with Stan.
And again, you don't appear to remember how the show explicitly revealed to us Paige was good at calling out her parents lies by saying in one scene "I can pick up when you guys lie to me" and showing this over and over again culminating in her slut shaming E even though E continued to deny ever sleeping with anyone. So say they lie about picking up Henry next to get her out of her apartment. It's not remotely plausible that she doesn't get instantly triggered to the point of refusing to go along once she figures out they're not picking up Henry. Why? Because we've seen her throw these kind of fits before when her parents lie to her MANY MANY times. I think P&E were smart enough to intuit that lying to her would have been counterproductive.
"about family that happens to be in the spy business"
Yes, the SPY business. That's a key distinction. And they also "just happen" to be neighbors with an FBI agent. That's the setup. And family goes beyond "Paige's hysterics" mgmt. Did you forget the relationship arc between P & E across the series? The show isnt about the "omnipresent existential threat that is Paige". The tagline isnt "When two spies have to deal with their hysterical daughter, chaos ensues".
"You're also ignoring that she ultimately gets triggered enough by Henry's absence to abandon them. "
You should do more reading. She bails b/c she knows the truth from what Stan said. She knows who her parents really are now.
"You also don't seem to be aware that being told Henry wasn't going DID TRIGGER HER"
"And you forgot altogether that she DID get triggered to the point of barely following them down to the garage. "
WTF?? I've been saying that all along. You're the one who tried to denature this and everything else they said and did from the garage back to her apt as logically written with this supposed ultimate goal of NOT TRIGGERING HER. "But not at the expense of triggering Paige" has been your whole defense of the garage scene and back. You're just being dishonest at this point. I wasnt the one dismissing this. It was you pretending that every OTHER scenario would've triggered her but what they did do was the wise, non-triggering approach -- b/c it's the key to everything. That was, and still is, your batsht premise. That's how you defend the way things were written. I'll come back to this one last time later. But first,
Paige doesnt get "TRIGGERED" at the end in the way you've harped upon. She evolved. There's no fit, no hysterics, no freak out. She's calm, measured. She became an adult and made a choice. She knows the score now. She doesnt run screaming and crying down the platform causing them all to get arrested. That's why she stares them down. That's why she calmly takes a vodka shot at the table. Conflating that with the hysterics you've been pitching is bullsht.
cont.
In the apartment she got triggered. You keep trying to deny her parents weren't acutely aware that killing Stan would trigger her. I keep pointing out that it's just not even remote plausible that's true. You keep trying to create a false equivalence that she would just as likely be triggered by being told of moving. I find that just plain silly. It's you that keeps trying to create this fictitious equivalency between the certainty of watching her parents gun down Stan to being told they are moving, as if they could be anywhere close to as shocking. I keep pointing out that it's plausible to me she wouldn't get triggered by that because she's been indoctrinated. I just don't find the constant equivocations you're offering the slightest bit compelling. It really defies reason to me that you would think watching Stan get gunned down is even in the same category.
shareI was finishing my other continuation as you replied but...
Strawman much? I didnt say death is the same. And I said as much the other times. You think restating things I've already answered, b/c you cant answer the things I just put forth, is valid argumentation. First you dodged Henry lost forever for a few rounds, and focused only on moving to Russia, then you make it seem the Henry bomb wouldnt be a trigger, then you think it is a trigger then --but it would've been a worse trigger later?! Absurd on its face. If her emotions are the Holy Grail there's no need to do it that way. THIS WAS GO TIME! But, as I'm sure you already know, yet too stubborn to admit, Paige's fits isnt the end all you've ridiculously tried to make them. It isnt written that way. You write off P steps as "tentative" but ignore Stan's gun draw as his logical reaction the writers put forth. Trigger? No reply from u. Like E's bloody face, you're conveniently blind to things that dont match your narratives. Paige's radar sucks, despite her thinking that it doesnt, like many people her age. And now you try to redefine "triggered" to include her maturation in your convoluted defense.
I understood what the writers did. You didnt.
I disagreed with it.
I didnt think Stan had enough of a drop on them.
I didnt think Stan would let them go after the "horrible betrayal".
They made a different creative choice.
But you created a fiction around a different logic and motivation that only exists in your mind -- not the writers'. Your defense didnt apply.
Paige "hysterics" are not the driver of the show. A casual viewer could see that. But you have too much invested now, so keep twisting and twisting.
At first I thought you were an honest debater. But it's so clear with your dodging; adopting of things that I presented from the start, but presenting them 1000 words later as your own; and goal post moving, that you're far from that.
You've just become the only one in my ignore list.
Congrats!
I never said Paige hysterics was the "driver of the show". I said the show creators said the show is first and foremost about family before the spy stuff. You're now hypocritically engaging in straw man tactics because you know you can't defend your position and address my point that there's no reason why P&E would turn into rank amateurs and focus on gunning down Stan in front of Paige. These are professionals who are trained to manage people and they've been managing their daughter and well aware of the risks of upsetting her where she gets obstinate and jeopardizes the mission. I've already listed all the reasons why they had to be cognizant of not upsetting Paige by gunning down Stan including even denying to Stan they had killed anyone in such an over the top way that it's hard to imagine them saying if Paige wasn't there. You can't address any of my points so you keep having to bring up these completely false equivalences about how Paige should have flipped out irrevocably when told of moving. It's just a terrible argument. I already pointed out why it's plausible why she didn't wig out over that IMMEDIATELY. You refuse to address this and instead choose to ignore her indoctrination and then accuse ME of ignoring your points. No, you're the one dismissing my refutation without addressing it and repeating an argument I already addressed. It's very hypocritical of you.
You've defended the garage scene as being written with logical consistency to manage Paige's fragility as THEE goal.
But let's go to the horse's mouth:
"I assumed Stan was dead as soon as he walked into that garage without calling it in first. He doesn’t die, but what happens to him in those ten minutes is arguably worse than if they had just shot him somehow. How did you come up with that particular end for Stan and the fact that Stan would let them go?"
Fields: We talked a lot about whether he would wind up getting shot or they would wind up getting shot. There were a lot of different versions of how that played out. Ultimately, it was pretty clear to us that Stan Beeman is a good enough FBI agent that, even as good as Philip and Elizabeth are, they’re not going to get the drop on him if he walks in behind them. So to us, there really wasn’t a danger of his being killed there. It was more a question of how it was going to play out emotionally and what was going to happen to Philip and Elizabeth once he walked in behind them.
Weisberg: The other question you’re asking, why would he let them go? I think that’s the question that interested us. So that scene was a way to explore that, and in a way there’ve been six seasons of this show that are all leading up to that question. And if six seasons of this show lead up to who’s going to shoot who, that’s a lot less interesting to us than six seasons of the show leading up to them pleading with him that their relationship matters more, how they can save their country matters more. After their horrible betrayal, can he reach into a deeper well, and then him having to make that choice. That’s what makes us feel the most.
Violence was on the table. Their logic for none? Stan had the drop. Will he let them go? There's the ultimate dramatic question that's been building. Paige isnt EVEN MENTIONED. Never mind the logic you put in their heads to defend P&E's inaction.
P&E CANNOT shoot Stan b/c he has "the drop"
=/=
P&E WILL NOT shoot Stan b/c of Paige's emotions.
YOUR RATIONALE IS NOT THEIR RATIONALE.
There's no "Well, we knew P&E would never kill Stan in front of Paige as that would destroy her and their chances to escape" in their answers. And shoot outs werent thrown out b/c of Paige hysterics as key consideration. They gave their reasons. These supposedly most critical ideas you keep asserting, Paige as "omnipresent existential threat" and "not at the expense of triggering Paige" doesnt get a mention b/c..
YOUR LOGIC IS NOT THEIR LOGIC.
FBI training keeps Stan safe -- not P&E's reluctance to do damage if given the chance.
They simply gave Stan control to have a dramatic dialogue over physical conflict -- like I said.
You tethered the question of Stan potentially dying to Paige's reaction. They DONT.
In a climax with 4 characters, Paige ranks 4th. She isnt even mentioned by name.
It's Stan, P, E then Paige. CLEARLY.
And the dramatic question, building over 6 seasons, and resolved in the climax in the finale is exactly what I said it was.
What happens when Stan discovers the truth? That's what we were waiting for.
The big showdown is with Stan in that garage. Painfully obvious. Get it yet?
[deleted]
Enjoyed reading the debate.
My take: Stan went alone because he WANTED to be wrong. His betrayal was intense to the degree that he felt that close friendship. The tipping point was when Paige said "You have to take care of Henry. He doesn't know." He is closer to Henry than his own son.
"he murdered that USSR guy as revenge for Amador"
And what has he realized about P&E? What's their body count? And that couple that Stan recruited? He killed for Amador but he wont arrest them? And if he is conflicted, why reveal his suspicions to his FBI pal? What's his endgame here? To talk it out with them? Of course not. They're not friends. It's all a lie and he's aware of that when he confronts them. He knows they cant answer those initials questions. He's toying with them b/c he knows he's got them in a knot of lies.
"If he went to Paige's apartment intending to arrest them, why did he go alone?"
Bad writing? To have a climactic scene that involved only the primary characters of the show? I agree. It doesnt make sense once he's made the realization. Again, he already floated the idea to his FBI pal. He didnt hold it in. He could've and should've made a call for back up prior to that moment in the garage.
"Once he got to the point where he felt it necessary to draw his weapon.."
You're furthering my point with these questions. it doesnt follow. It's all contrived for that scene to have that dialogue. If you're going to play it that way, Stan's pal should've been the one with the suspicion. Stan should've been in denial and pursue a line of evidence to show that it couldnt be true. Instead Stan is mentally castrated at the last moment despite all he knows? P is not his best friend. He knows it's all a lie. He knows the havoc they've wreaked. He might go easy on Paige if she was really in the dark on some stuff but not those two. Their hands are drenched in blood. He's FBI who's figured it out -- not some civilian recruit who'll wilt and keep buying more lies. More momentary BS from those two makes it all evaporate? It doesnt follow. He's not Martha
"I don't know what Stan's motives were for going to Paige's apartment. Maybe to just find out the truth? "
He did. Worst suspicions were confirmed. More talk from liar spies shouldnt then make FBI Stan wilt.
I agree, I was going to say something similar about Stan. He was damaged. He had done things contrary to his duty. His emotions usually won out. Not that I can blame him for falling for Nina, though...
shareI felt that Stan's piece in the last episode was about which side his choices would fall. I think the whole show was about the tension between family/friends/love and country/duty. Elizabeth always chooses country and duty, even at the cost of her relationships with her children. Elizabeth's choices in this regard drive the whole show. I think Philip is the opposite: he chooses love. In the first episode, he gives up the chance to defect because he kills the man they have hidden in their garage when he realises that man hurt Elizabeth in the past. Philip continues to be a spy, even though he hates it, because he loves Elizabeth and wants their relationship to succeed. I think Philip would like to have been a good friend to Stan, but Philip's loyalty to Elizabeth comes first.
I think Stan is interesting because he is trying to have it both ways. He plays Nina as an informant, which suggests he is loyal to his country. But he falls in love with Nina and is willing to collude with Oleg to save her.
I think when Stan meets Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige in the garage, he is torn between country and love/friends (I'm putting love in the same category as friendship). He should turn them in but he feels a tension between his loyalty to his country and his loyalty to them as his friends. Philip plays him a bit, going on about the plot to take Gorbachev down, but I think it's really Paige's statement that convinces Stan, when she says he needs to take care of Henry. I think Henry tips the balance for Stan. I put that into the love/friends/family column (not love for Philip and Elizabeth but for Henry). My favorite scene was when Stan goes to Henry and explains things to him but also provides him support. I think that is the climax of the show and gives us "the answer." Of all these people, Stan is the one who made the right choice.
At the end, Paige was left alone and friendless because her parents failed her and she didn't have a Stan. Paige's fate is the outcome of Philip and Elizabeth's choices.
Philip and Elizabeth have each other, but because of their many choices over the years, they don't have their children, who will likely both hate them from now on. I think to both Philip and Elizabeth, their relationship with each other is the most important thing to them, but it's not an easy or smooth relationship. They are somewhat locked in battle with each other and probably always will be so. In a sense, they picked their relationship with each other over the welfare of their children. I think they made the wrong choice. They will have to live with that.
"...but this show went for realism as much as possible."
Ahahahahahahaha... oh boy... yeah, right. "Realism".
Are you out of your mind? This was a completely overblown drama series and not realistic at all.
The BS Philip and Elizabeth have done, survived and endured is out of this world.
Season 1 was great, after that it turned into a completely action-riddled mass-murder festival.
Especially Elizabeth was a stone cold psychopath, I mean how many people did she kill herself, even innocent bystanders?
Yes, very realistic...
The ending was bad, for the reason alone that she got away. She didn't deserve to get away, she deserved death.
Largely agree with you.
IMO, the show dragged on maybe a season or two too long and that just made the sheer number of marks they exploit and kills notched without getting caught totally unrealistic to the point of absurdity. Especially the final season where the kill count took an astronomical leap. It was like we were watching a weekly Elizabeth-the-femme-fatale-serial-killer series.
Yes it was 1982-1987 before DNA forensics, GPS, ubiquitous cameras, etc. But still, some of it just defied reason. It got so gratuitous that the capstone of Elizabeth pulling off an assassination of Taitiana in broad daylight, on a downtown sidewalk as she approached a Soviet dignitary with no security around was fittingly ludicrous.
Some of it was just annoyingly bad writing in order to keep the FBI in the dark and never a step closer to ID'ing Philip and Elizabeth. For instance, interrogating all FBI employees trying to find the mole without making them take a polygraph? Or how about when they seemed to catch a break when they literally said in the dialog they were able to pull Stan's driver's license info from the apartment lease he was using to shack up with Martha, and used it to pull up death records to determine his ID was fake, but were too stupid to get his photo ID from department of licensing? Instead, they had to keep relying on those weak artist sketches based on the landlord's memory. That was just insultingly stupid. I get that once they see his photo it's game over, so don't write in stupid plot contrivances that insult our intelligence that FBI wouldn't pull his license photo.
I actually enjoyed the finale more than I thought I would because I totally didn't expect they would all survive. Still, I wish the writing was tighter and they shortened up the total number of episodes, it got really repetitive after awhile.
P&E not fighting back - i thought that was because Paige was there and they didn't want to risk her getting hurt. Philip even said "this is Paige" to Stan to remind him that she was there. I think if Paige had not been with them, it would have played out a lot differently.
Regarding the ID photo, i believe at that time, photo licenses were not mandatory. IIRC, you could have opted for a non-photo driver's license that just had a description at the time.
I liked the finale but was a little frustrated with all the unanswered questions:
What about Martha? I would have liked to see a reunion of "Clark" and Martha in the USSR.
What was Paige's plan for the rest of her life?
Did Philip ever unite with his son?
Was Renee a soviet agent? (i like to think she was and this was the show's way of indicating that they spy game would continue with business as usual - just with different players)
And more i can't think of right now.
Good call on the photo license. I just looked it up and NY was the last state to make photos a requirement in 1986 but New Jersey still allowed exceptions later than that.
I don't know how P&E could have fought back without one of them getting shot. The one time Philip tried to get closer Stan picked up on it immediately and told him to back off. He kept them a good 10-15 feet at bay. Either one of them charges and he's got a clean clear shot.
I don't see why Martha would want to see Clark again, given the way she treated Gabriel. But I could see Philip learning of his son after he returned. No reason for Gabriel to keep it from him.
Thing with Renee is, even if she were a deep cover spy, the Soviet Union collapses 3 years later. What would have happened to their deep cover spies when the Soviet state no longer existed. She could have just decided to continue living her life as an American. The tragedy for P&E is that they couldn't hang around for another 3 years for this to happen to them. But so goes life for Soviet's top deep cover spies, they're given the most dangerous assignments.
The other thing with Renee is that if she was a deep cover spy, that's another major plot hole seeing how Stan had been out of counterintelligence for 3 years while she was with him. His only involvement was managing the Teacups and it's not like they were yielding any useful intel either according to Aderholt.
I was leaving conclusions open about Renee all the way along, until the final scene. That tied it up for me. She was a foreign agent. OR undercover Feeb or US Marshall because Stan had come under suspicion at some point, and someone wanted to do a deep surveillance all around.
But foreign agent is more likely, due to the marriage happening.
But one way or another, the camera lingering on Rene''s face at the end, close-up, watching her intently watch the Feebs crawling all over the Jennings' house. It told the tale.
Oh happy clappy smiley Renee. Always energetic, up for a good time. Hm.
None of that was present in the driveway. Her face had dropped every hint of every expression we've ever seen from her--it was cold, calculating, her eyes narrowed and watching the activity across the street with a very piercing professional air to it.
Finally. She turned and walked back inside. IMO, they showed us what she was right there--the actress played it perfectly. Not little softy Renee.
That "Renee" was someone else, someone who had dropped her act when alone in the driveway. You could see the wheels turning.
Somebody else she was, for sure. Who though? That we don't know. What do we want to bet she went back into the house, got her purse, got in the car to "go shopping," went to a place where her bug-out bag was and was on the next train to Canada?
That's my vote.
The Jennings are gone. Stan's finished with the FBI. Toast. She ain't gonna stay around until the the Stan thing disintegrates and she's brought in for questioning? Hello Canada.
I wonder if/when they'll run into Phillip's first son.
shareI enjoyed it. Felt a little disappointed. Ultimately kinda bland with them in USSR. Some people should have died but not in the garage scene. I liked that scene completely. Elizabeth should have died because that was where her arc was leading. Paige should have died for tragedy and innocent consequences of the life her parents led.
share