Gee, who are the good guys? - Stalingrad (2013) Discussion

[–] bdavis-5 11 years ago

In response to Nikitn, did a serious military plan really exist in 1945 for the U.S. and British armies (the British could not possibly have contemplated doing that on their own, of course) to attack the Red Army? I am surprised, and I doubt it. In any case, despite the legendary spirit, resilience and skill of the Mighty Russian Soldier, I am quite sure that the USSR would have been helpless against atomic weapons being deployed against it in 1945.

Apparently, Nikitn and some others here fail to understand or accept that Stalin and the Soviets really were evil on an order comparable to Hitler and the Nazis. It doesn't really matter that the Nazis were precisely worse or not according to any given moral measurement: all on their own, Stalin and the Soviets were responsible for many millions of civilian deaths and the enslavement of their own country and their neighbours under dictatorships for half a century. That is why the Russians were the bad guys at Stalingrad, too. That is why the most just outcome of that battle would have been for both the Germans and the Russians to lose so many men and armaments that both would have had to retire from the war, which may have caused the terrible regimes of both nations to collapse on their own.

Even if someone answers with something ignorant like, "well, the British were bad, too, because of their area bombing and their empire", that is a separate debate - it doesn't change what the Russians did or the evil nature of Stalin and Soviet Communism.

The leaders of the USA, Britain, Canada and others had consciously allied themselves to a monster in order to defeat another monster. Perhaps if they had taken care of the former as soon as the latter had been defeated, then there would not have been a Warsaw Pact, the Berlin Wall, the Cold War or any more state communism in Russia or anywhere else, along with the Gulags and the Great Leap Forwards and the Killing Fields and Ceausescu's orphans and so many other horrors - and so the world probably would have been better than it was after 1945.

I thank all of you for your responses. They have confirmed for me that my argument is irrefutable.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] anondragon2012 11 years ago

Soviets are the good guys because Roosevelt said so.

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[–] TheMan18 (13176) 4 months ago

"because Roosevelt said so"
Did he also have evidence to back up his claim, and if so, that means its a pass, right?

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[–] bigBang8 11 years ago

Germans for trying to conquer europe and pretty much nothing would change, russia for defending it's own country, in any case german soldiers we're the good guys, my grandpa told they gave chocolate when they we're riding out back to germany because the war was ending. and chocolate out there was rarer than gold plus he was a kid.

The increase in human knowledge is the cause of the decline of religions.

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

Like the Germans later?

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

As if a perpetrator stops being one when police came knocking on his door.
Don't be sly overnine'r.

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[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

That's an intersting comparison. What happened to the women of Eastern Prussia after the Soviets came to knock? The ones that didn't manage to escape the knockers? Who were 'the good guys' and whose homeland it was back then?

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

"That's an intersting comparison."

And a smart one too.

"What happened to the women of Eastern Prussia after the Soviets came to knock? The ones that didn't manage to escape the knockers? Who were 'the good guys' and whose homeland it was back then?"

Are you sly on purpose or stupidity runs in your family? :)
You are aware of a little thing called cause&effect analysis? Or do they do not teach it there back in where-ever-the-fk-you-are-from-stan?
Like the war did not began or ended with said "knock", that at the time of said "knock" the war raged for more than 4 years, that the war was started by that "poor ol'" woman's country, and that That country was loosing the very war it started.
But I guess it's to complicated for you, so let me chew it up for you for better digestion and give you the answer you "want" to hear: "Yeah, overniner, you are absolutely right! The swastika guys are the victims and heroes here! Those damn "door knockers" came absolutely out of no where and with out any reason what so ever!"

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[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

You didn't include all this in your initial definition of what makes the good guys™ when it was just about defending homeland.

But surely the same Red Army were already bad guys even at the very start of this war, when they invaded Poland and Finland in 1939?

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

"You didn't include all this in your initial definition of what makes the good guys™ when it was just about defending homeland."

I thought it was obvious.
Sure for german citizens german soldiers were good guys right the very end, but for the rest of the world - bad to the bone. Unlike the Red Army - to every sane person and especially those who know german occupation first hand, it was obvious that USSR is fighting a good fight.

"But surely the same Red Army was the bad guys even at the very start of this war, when it attacked Poland and Finland in 1939?"

1. There was no attack against Poland by USSR, if so then please give me the dates of:
A. USSR declaring war on Poland;
B. Poland declaring war on USSR;
C. Poland's allies - France and Britain declaring war on USSR.

After that, please tell me why, oh, why didn't anyone object at all when USSR returned their own territories of West Ukraine and West Belorssia that were taken by Poland in 1920s war.

2. Finland barely fits in the victim category also, as it wasn't the same cute ol' Finland we know today. Not getting along with its eastern neighbor from the very get-go in 1917. Barely democratic, highly nationalistic with ideas of "Great Finlad from sea to sea". Someone thought that having such kind of neighbor near the second large city of the country (Leningrad a.k.a. Peterburg) isn't a good idea (and history prooved right when WW2 came into USSR). Basically it's a story about two stubborn goats on a narrow bridge. ;)

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[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

September 1939. Thousands of Poles (military and civilian) were killed or murdered in the attack itself. Tens of thousands were systematically executed later, and hundreds of thousands died or were murdered in prisons, camps, and mass deportations. Just like in the German occupation zone during the same period of 1939-41.

In 1920 the USSR didn't even exist. And I wonder how happy the population of eastern Ukraine was to live in a Soviet republic in 1933 (or people of eastern Belarus in 1937).

I guess you're now talking about the "Finnish Democratic Republic".

Oh yes, of course, because the great military power Finland could invade and conquer the USSR if the good guys didn't stop it by defending the motherland as they always do.

It's obvious you live in some sort of alternate reality. I hope it's a nice place.

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

Oh goodie! Another hick to poke in the puddle he's made!

"September 1939."

So far so good. At least you got the month right.

"Thousands of Poles (military and civilian) were killed or murdered in the attack itself."

Make it more interesting, why don't you say a billion poles were eaten by russians from the start! But seriously where are the dates I asked and then please add a date of this "horrific" attack or battle you just sucked out of your finger.

"Tens of thousands were systematically executed later, and hundreds of thousands died or were murdered in prisons, camps, and mass deportations."

Once again, start with a billion poles - like your daddy Hitler taught you "The more horrific lie is, the more people will believe it." (I would've added "ignorant hicks")
But on a serious note:
A. Katyn was done by germans, admitted and proven during Nurnberg trials.
B. Your atrocious numbers of casaulties contradict the shear number of poles used in formation of Sanders army and 1st Polish Army later on (with total number of somewhat 160'000). Both formed by USSR.

"Just like in the German occupation zone during the same period of 1939-41."

Yes, yes we already learnt from you that swastika guys are way much better! Everything was honky-dory in good old ghettos and extermination camps... but then came the dreaded soviets buga-buga-buga!

"In 1920 the USSR didn't even exist."

Soviet Republic of Russia did (which later on in 1922 was named into USSR as you are so obviously aware of the fact). But I guess the war of 1920s never hapenned just beacuse you don't want to offend "poor, little ol' territory grabbing poles". Boo-hoo... ;) For crying out loud even Churchill called them hyenas...

"And I wonder how happy the population of eastern Ukraine was to live in a Soviet republic in 1933 (or people of eastern Belarus in 1937)."

Oh they are alive and kicking. Like everyone else they built factories, worked, grew children, heroicly fought in the war and won it etc. Also I like how you use dates without any knowledge of what really happened, where and why, as IF 1933 famine was ONLY in Ukraine (which you also don't know a thing about) and 1937 (i think you are refering to so called purges, which as mentioned - you don't know a thing about) happened ONLY in Belorussia.

"I guess you're now talking about the "Finnish Democratic Republic"."

Putting a word "democratic" somewhere doesn't make a thing democratic. But I guess you personally will eat sh.t if there is going to be word "Ice cream" spelled on it, because you know...Eyes do not lie! :D

"Oh yes, of course, because the great military power Finland could invade and conquer the USSR if the good guys didn't stop it by defending the motherland as they always do."

What? Midgets or bums don't allowed to have big ambitions? Ask any nationalist - they will quickly tell you what sizes their countries must be.

"It's obvious you live in some sort of alternate reality. I hope it's a nice place."

It's obvious that if gods want to punish someone, they take away their mind. Boy, did they do a number on you. I just hope they kept the receipt...
But seriously run along to your snotty peers in the sandbox, as I can sense a juvenille dumbss even across the ocean.

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[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

Obvious troll is obvious, ignored.

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

The world is in mourn no doubt. A juvenille ignorant hick who failed to present me dates, facts, digits to support his own arguments is ignoring me. Have fun in the sandbox.

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[–] ivankafka 11 years ago

I don't think he's being a troll, I think he actually believes all those lies. At the very least it's outrageous Soviet propaganda like only Soviet propaganda can be.

He's been brainwashed like they all were in totalitarian USSR. Many still are today under Putin as many still refuse to see Stalin as the sadistic tyrant he was. Fear and oppression didn't exist. Millions enslaved in Gulags for decades just a myth. The USSR didn't occupy Eastern Poland in 1939 nor the Baltic States in 1940, or occupy regions of Romania the same year. The Katyn massacre was not committed by the Soviets despite admitting to it in 1991. Eastern Europe enjoyed being occupied and oppressed by the Soviets for 45 years.

The best has to be saying the USSR invaded Finland because it was worried little Finland might invade them first. LMAO.

Truth is they were an utterly evil regime from start to finish and in the same ballpark as the Nazis.

Trying to choose between the two is like trying to pick between two devils. Agree with the OP, best outcome would have been the two despots and their vile heartless regimes destroying each other completely.

Details of the two tyrant's squalid little pact.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/molotovpact.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

No doubt imdbstuff1941 will continue with his laughable denials, more absurd lies and personal insults.

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[–] overninethousand 11 years ago

Somehow it's easier to believe it's a troll than someone who in 2014 really believes in hows the peace-loving Stalin surely had no choice but to preemptively attack before Finland's armoured might of some 30 light tanks would became fully operational, because then those expansionist Finns would not stop until there are saunas everywhere.

Btw, when I mentioned the "Finnish Democratic Republic" it was the name given to a group of Finnish traitors residing in Moscow in 1939.

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[–] summeriris 11 years ago

No one is saying the the Stalinist regime was a good one. It wasn't and Stalin was responsible for millions of deaths...But that does not clean Germany's hands of mass murder and atrocity. Right or wrong Germany made the pact with Stalin in 1939 and then broke it two years later. Germany invaded Russia with the full intent of killing the population and then stealing the land and the oil fields in the Caucasus. Germany was the aggressor and Germany started the operation of genocide against not only the Jewish and Gypsy peoples but also the indigenous population. I think you should stop trying to whitewash the poor German soldier who was just following orders and do some real studying about the war in Russia. The fact is the Nazis took a big bite of the steak and it choked them. As for the German women who were raped when the Russian Army came to Germany, that was a crime. No one in their right mind would call it anything else. The fact that the German Army had raped and murdered it's way across Poland and the Ukraine does not change that.

_____________
I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

"I don't think he's being a troll, I think he actually believes all those lies."

Exactly! You don't think. At all it seems.

"At the very least it's outrageous Soviet propaganda like only Soviet propaganda
can be."

Look out through the window, will ya buddy? USSR doesn't exist for about twenty
years now. No iron curtains. No Gulags. A good portion of archives is open. Who
makes you pour that cold war diarea out of your mouth is a mystery to me.

"He's been brainwashed like they all were in totalitarian USSR."

Yes, yes - How dare this untermenschen scum have a different opinion backed up by facts! Only juvenille minds of Overniner and ivankafka can comprehend the TRUTH (but in fact merely scratching the dry crust of sht that covers it).

"Many still are today under Putin as many still refuse to see Stalin as the sadistic tyrant he was."

Yes, yes. Putin came the other day and said to me: "Your not loving Stalin enough, comrade. Improve on that or it will be Gulag for you, your family and your cat."

"Fear and oppression didn't exist."

It did... but only in Mordor of a land that your juvenille ignorant brain likes to depict you certain countries.

"Millions enslaved in Gulags for decades just a myth."

I told the other ignorant hick (overniner) that people must start with a BILLION at very least! Also I like how you ignorant hicks like to appeal to emotions - ENSLAVED (The chidren! Oh what about the children! Woe is us!).
But I'll humor you hicks a bit (just because I'm a swell guy).
In 1954 Krushchev (you ignorant hicks might not know, but he is a world known
destalinizator) wanted to get some real dirt on his predecessor (Stalin) and
ordered Prosecutor-General Rudenko, minister of the interior Kruglov and minister of justice Gorshenin to get him the numbers of the "millions enslaved"! So they counted and counted and... February 1st 1954 gave him the report where it is clearly stated that the during the course of almost 33 years (1921-1954) total (including all kinds of convicts: rapists, murderers, deserters, thieves, thugs, "politicals", etc.) number of convicted is... 3.777.380 people (642.980 got the extreme penalty; 25 years and less of imprisoment - 2.369.220; internal
deportations/exiles - 765.180). All done according to law of said country in the
said historical period (there is court/judicial comitee/court martial/ verdict for every case). If you want to argue about the laws and legislation/judicial systems of various countries of different time periods then I would suggest you to visit a doctor.
And just for the memo the prison population of modern USA is somewhat 2.5 millions - by your logic the country is genuine Hell on this good Earth.

"The USSR didn't occupy Eastern Poland in 1939"

That Poland occupied itself in the Russo-Polish war of 1920.

"nor the Baltic States in 1940,"

I'm from Lithuania myself so tread carefully here ;). Yes, hardcore nationalists
call it the occupation now (buga-buga-buga). Which it wasn't de-facto or even de-jure (with elections and referendums).

"occupy regions of Romania the same year."

Which Romania itself occupied in 1918 (from a neighbour that had a civil war... you guessed it - Russia).

"The Katyn massacre was not committed by the Soviets despite admitting to it in
1991."

Despite not having any thorough investigation done on the matter and despite
germans admitting the crime during Nurnberg trials. I am outraged as you are! :)
Not to mention that the Katyn deal conviniently saw light when your swell nazi friends began loosing the war.

"Eastern Europe enjoyed being occupied and oppressed by the Soviets for 45 years."

Yes, yes and all died there. Only I survived to write blasphemies on the web.
On the matter: they were no more/no less independent than NATO/EU members right now.

"The best has to be saying the USSR invaded Finland because it was worried little Finland might invade them first. LMAO."

No, no - there were no incursions and skirmishes in the 1921-1922 in the Karelia. The russians were fighting bears there! Finnish nationalists dreaming about Great Finland on the expense of its eastern neighbor is a myth!
Also, nice hick-move on distorting my words about having an unfriednly neighbour
near second largest city of the country.

"Truth is they were an utterly evil regime from start to finish and in the same
ballpark as the Nazis."

Truth is you are ignorant juvenille hick. On the matter: yes, yes - there were no Munich treaty and nazi-agressor appeasement policy in good old white and fuzy West, no sabotaging the collective defence treaties in late 1930s, no trying to channel the nazi threat to the east, no, no - there are only two guilty parties in the black and white brain of a juvenille ignorant hick.

"Trying to choose between the two is like trying to pick between two devils."

What a cruel and sick planet you are living on. Everyone is a satanist there:
Roosevelt, Churchill, De Gaulle etc. All made a pact with the "devil".
Even the Jews when they announced a national mourn after Stalin's death (even
canceled Purim celebrations).

"Agree with the OP, best outcome would have been the two despots and their vile
heartless regimes destroying each other completely."

Two juvenille ignorant hicks are agreeing on something... oh my heart won't take
it... Nah I'm ok. ;)

"Details of the two tyrant's squalid little pact.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/molotovpact.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact";

The ultimate source of knowledge for a juvenille ignorant hick is of course a
heavily edited by anyone who wants Wikipedia and sites that copy material from Wikipedia. Professional historians study matters for decades, but man oh man are they dumb right? I mean, come on! Wikipedia has all the answers!
Juvenille ignorant hicks don't know (but professional historians do) that NO ONE
seen these "secret protocols" anywhere at all. Not in german archives. Not in
russian archives. The photocopies and texts that are all around the web are from a book - Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939–1941. Washington, 1948. The biggest evidence of "protocols" being a cold war hoax is that no one no where on this planet
writes a word SECRET in the document's name (Secret Additional Protocol) that
parties involved know is secret - it's straight out of Hollywood zone, you know, so that juvenille ignorant hick would get it for sure.

"No doubt imdbstuff1941 will continue with his laughable denials, more absurd lies and personal insults."

No doubt imdbstuff1941 will continue to poke juvenille ignorant hick's snouts right in the very puddles they are constantly making.

Seriously Overniner and Kafka tell me your adresses so I could send you couple of condoms as the world is interested that the likes of you do not reproduce. ;)

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

With every post from those ignorant hicks I come to a conclusion that analytical and logical thinking is strictly prohibitted where-ever-the-fk-they-are-from-stan. It seems that all their knowledge is based on date learning and numbers (and some can't even get those straight) - step to the right; step to the left and their minds go into stupor and then on the loop mode. :D

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[–] psychotico 11 years ago

I was wondering that too after the Russian shot Masha in the head even though she was Russian. Barbaric animals on both sides, and to think we had to deal with them during the Cold War. To take out one evil nation (the nazis) we allied ourselves to another evil nation (the soviets), terrible mistake. Patton was right when he said we should take out the Nazis and Soviets at the same time, would of saved the whole of Europe and Asia from suffering and proxy wars.

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

Let me guess - you are one of those ignorant hicks with eternal victim syndrome?

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] alouette1977 11 years ago

On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize for the OP and his short-sighted knowledge of history. He needs to read more books on the subject, like Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad, William Craig's Enemy At The Gates, and Peter Ustinov's My Russia. We owe the Red Army the greatest debt of gratitude, for they played the biggest part in stopping the Nazi War Machine. Hitler's grand plan for the Soviet Union was to kill half the population and enslave the rest; then attack and crush China from the west to aid their axis partner Japan. The world would have looked very different to this day had both fascist empires attained their goals, which was all of Europe & Asia under them.

The post-war arguments about their occupation of border countries to ensure Communist friendly regimes - from their point of view, it was about collective security. After centuries of being invaded and having their land devastated, with 25 million dead in their country alone they decided it would never happen again. You can debate and condemn their post war methods, but you can understand where it came from.

"Everyone else may be an a**hole, but I'm not!" - Harlan Ellison

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[–] alouette1977 11 years ago

All the posters bringing up the Nazi-Soviet Non Aggression pact of 1939 - let's remember some history. Stalin and the Soviets had been concerned about an inevitable showdown with the Nazis since Hitler's election in 1933. They had opposed each other by mass proxy, supporting opposing sides in the Spanish Civil War. Stalin commissioned Sergei Eisenstein in 1938 to do a film about the famous Russian hero Alexander Nevsky - who pushed back an invasion by the Teutonic knights hundreds of years earlier - as a means of psychologically preparing the population for war with Germany. When Hitler wanted to annex Czechoslovakia, Russia was prepared to stand against them and wanted the international community to do the same. But the Czechs were famously abandoned by Neville Chamberland, who flew back to Great Britain and gave his famous "I have achieved peace in our time!" address, believing by allowing the annexation Hitler would have no more demands. Regarding Czechoslovakia, Chamberland remarked 'it is a faraway place of which we know little.' That was when Stalin felt they could not count on the West to stand against Hitler. And feeling they were not ready for armed combat against the Nazis, the 10-year Non Aggression pact was signed with equal cynicism on both sides. Both knew it was a delaying tactic; Hitler did not want to fight a two-front war, but would find the temptation too great to resist by 1941, timing the invasion to the exact day Napoleon invade Russia in the early 19th century.

Meanwhile, Russia would look like a bully in the eyes of the world, fighting their winter war against Finland in 1940-41 (and looking incompetent against the underdog Finns) but it was all about trying to get important seaports they could use in the coming war against Germany. Hitler saw how poorly the Red Army was doing in Finland and got excited, believing fate was on his side and the Russian Colossus would collapse inward, not long after invading.

"Everyone else may be an a**hole, but I'm not!" - Harlan Ellison

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

Finally! Someone got right here (more or less of course) :)

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[–] bdavis-5 11 years ago

I am glad to meet people who are interested in history, and it must be acknowledged that different people can disagree over the same events when history is open to different interpretations.

However, alouette1977 seems to miss my point and get bogged down in the details of his sympathy for historic Russian feelings of insecurity. I do not defend the monstrously evil National Socialist Germans. I make the simple point that the Soviet Socialist Russians were monstrously evil, too, and that is indisputable. This fact should make it laughably absurd for non-Russians to wholeheartedly cheer on Stalin and the USSR as if they were the Dalai Lama and Tibet, as this film apparently wants us to. It did not matter to their victims how understandable excuses for their behaviour in light of “centuries of being invaded” may have been.

Were the Germans exactly worse than the Russians? Forced to judge, I would guess that they had the edge at the time. But so what? The Soviets were also responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocents and the tyrannical oppression of millions more, and they ruthlessly invaded their neighbours even before Operation Barbarossa. Does it not make sense that the best outcome of Barbarossa for the world would have been that both the Nazis and the Soviets lost?

I am confident that I could persuade at least one fellow Canadian to agree with me, thus removing the need to apologize on behalf of this entire country just for me. Tsk, tsk.

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[–] imdbstuff1941 11 years ago

"I am glad to meet people who are interested in history, and it must be acknowledged that different people can disagree over the same events when history is open to different interpretations."

Interpretations come from pseudo-historian writers aiming for a bestseller. Professional historians work with cold hard facts.

"However, alouette1977 seems to miss my point and get bogged down in the details of his sympathy for historic Russian feelings of insecurity."

Ever heard the expression "The Devil is in details" or "Look at the root of a problem"? But I guess you live in the world where Nazis or Soviets are some creatures that suddenly came from Mars and with out any particular reason began warring.

"I do not defend the monstrously evil National Socialist Germans."

By throwing dirt all over your ally (at that time) you are throwing dirt all over your fallen countrymen. Here is an example: German - evil a-holes> Soviets - evil a-holes> Western allies helped Soviets, thus becomming evil a-holes themselves (as you can not keep your mits clean working with a-holes). End result? Right! Everyone on this planet is an evil a-hole.

"I make the simple point that the Soviet Socialist Russians were monstrously evil, too, and that is indisputable."

You simply repeat the same ol' cold war myths with constant matras "Evil regime", "Billions personally eaten by Stalin", "Opression/repression/enslavement/occupation" and other trala-las. Not to mention that your kind (juvenille ignorant hick that is) never comes up with any facts to back up your own argument (Wikipedia aside of course as it is "unbiased" truth of the last and only level for you hicks!)

"This fact should make it laughably absurd for non-Russians to wholeheartedly cheer on Stalin and the USSR as if they were the Dalai Lama and Tibet, as this film apparently wants us to."

Who cheers? Non-russians cheer for Stalin and everything that even slightly resembles Red???

"It did not matter to their victims how understandable excuses for their behaviour in light of “centuries of being invaded” may have been."

No, no. No one ever asked the question: "How did we come to this?"

"Were the Germans exactly worse than the Russians?"

Ask the jews.

"Forced to judge, I would guess that they had the edge at the time. But so what?"

Yes, yes let us erase and water down all borders between everything including right and wrong!

"The Soviets were also responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocents and the tyrannical oppression of millions more, and they ruthlessly invaded their neighbours even before Operation Barbarossa."

Once again: Who or what makes you pour that cold war diarrhea out of your mouth? No even better! Give me the god damn facts ;)

"Does it not make sense that the best outcome of Barbarossa for the world would have been that both the Nazis and the Soviets lost?"

Want to know how I know that you are juvie? This sentence /\ . Only juvinille minds perceive world in black and white.

"I am confident that I could persuade at least one fellow Canadian to agree with me, thus removing the need to apologize on behalf of this entire country just for me. Tsk, tsk."

Thus increasing the level of ignorance. Thank you for making another global war that will surely come a bloody one, as the last one is already forgotten as it seems.

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[–] alouette1977 11 years ago

The people of Russia would have more reason to condemn Stalin than anyone, because they suffered more than anyone else in his willing the country into rapid modernization & the elimination of his enemies, real or imagined. But even today his legacy among the Russian people is mixed; just like Mao Zedong's perception in China, where over twice as many people died as a result of his great leap forward plans and repressions, but left the country in far better shape at the time of his death.

Contrast that with Hitler in Germany, where public displays & support of Nazism can land you in jail.

I don't think all dictators are the same.

"Everyone else may be an a**hole, but I'm not!" - Harlan Ellison

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