MovieChat Forums > Kill List (2011) Discussion > People debating ending *Spoilers*

People debating ending *Spoilers*


Im pretty sure that the reason that Shel (Jay's wife) laughs at the end is because she has no idea who she has been fighting. She is wrapped in a bed sheet, with a 7 year old on her back, with a mask over her face. Its pitch black, outside, and she is at the very least disorientated. As is Jay at this point. We as viewers know as much as he does, we think he is a fighting a hunchback, as the graphic tells us so. The reveal at the end that he's killed the only two things he really cares about is just a cruel twist of fate.

As for everything else that happens, its supposed to be deliberately ambiguous. Its not the kind of film where plot has been spoon fed to us, so by being vague at the end, we're left with only our own interpretations of what has happened. People who need to have an ending spelled out to them obviously have no imagination and cant fill in the gaps for themselves.

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Sorry but as soon as i saw the hunch back i knew it was the mother with the son on her back. In fact i figured the cult would try to get him to kill his family once they captured him. So for me the ending wasn't that amazing but a bit predictable

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How did you figure that out?

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I don't know maybe i'm that rare beast that has seen so many movies, nothing comes as a surprise any more. Kind of sucks because i don't seem to enjoy film and tv as much as i used to.

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[deleted]

Why don't you try practicing a bit of brilliant writing yourself and not write something that's so (unintentionally) filled with spoilers?

Damn, son!

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How did you figure that out?


"How could anyone NOT figure it out" would be a more apt question I think.


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But he didn't give a answer relating to anything in the movie. I accept the answer, but what is there in the movie? I know you're basically saying I'm thick, but it's still a valid question. Some of us just like to get lost in the movie.

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I also immediately, correctly guessed that it was the wife and son under the sheet.

Asking how we figured it out is a good question and deserves a thoughtful answer. I think I can explain it. It will be long, but it can also help you (and others) understand and enjoy films even more than you already do (no one ever stops growing in this respect).

First off, a lot of this comes from simply having experienced a ton of films and having read a lot about films (and it helps, but isn't necessary, to be familiar with some film theory or at least conventions of films from a filmmaking standpoint).

Also, for me, a lot of the following is simply intuitive at this point. I don't have to think all of this through. But I've watched thousands of films over the course of 4+ decades now.

It's important when you're watching a film to keep in mind that conventionally, every single thing you see and hear in a film--every single shot, everything a shot is designed to focus your attention on (which is achieved by techniques such as framing things in particular ways, lingering on particular things, subtly changing the literal camera focus on them, musical cues, more obvious things like character comments, and all sorts of other things), every bit of dialogue, etc., everything--it's all there, exactly the way it is, for a reason, with those reasons being, more or less in order of significance (a) to understand the temporal and spatial setting, (b) to understand something important about the characters, and (c) (the other two points ultimately factor into this one too) to gain important information, as well as foreshadowing, symbolism, etc. for the plot.

Now, the above is just a convention, something that not every filmmaker follows (and it's often followed to degrees rather than just being either 100% or nothing), and I do not agree with the view that there's something flawed about not following it, but it's generally a good idea as a film-watcher to read all films that way, at least the first time--to assume that every shot is giving you either (a), (b) or (c), and isn't just there randomly because the director thought something looked pretty, or weird, or whatever but it had nothing to do with the characters and the story they're in. If you catch yourself watching a film and you find your attention drifting as (especially dialogue-free) shots go by of things, locations, particular objects, seemingly unimportant actions, etc.--stop for a minute, rewind the film if you have to, and for every single shot, think to yourself, "Why are the filmmakers showing me this? There must be a reason for it, some significance to it, something important for the story". (And by the way, especially if you have a tendency to focus on dialogue, watching silent films is a great way to help train yourself for this, as it requires a different sort of concentration to "get the story" . . . it also should go without saying that it's not a good idea, given this, to try to watch a film while you're talking with friends, reading the paper, playing a video game on a portable, etc.)

Alright, so knowing the above, it's worth noting that the makers of Kill List are definitely following the convention.

So as you watch the film, you'll notice a number of unusual things, including:

----------MASSIVE spoilers below----------------

* The way they dwell for a minute on Shel's intense conversation, and the way that she's having it at a level of remove from the viewer--in a language, without translation, that most viewers won't understand.

* The fact that Fiona is apparently a newcomer to the social group, and the men clearly fib a bit about their activities to her, but then she does something even more subversive--she draws what looks like a cult symbol on the back of Jay & Shel's bathroom mirror. (Knowing that it looks like a cult symbol would come from watching a lot of films if nothing else.)

* Fiona's abrupt disappearance, but then her mysterious reappearance to Shel.

* The fact that Jay and Gal have some suspicions about Fiona.

* The fact that they spent time focusing on a playful swordfight between Jay, Shel and their son.

* The fact that there are a few King Arthur allusions, including that swordfight, plus they make sure to mention Arthur and Guinevere (as possible dog names)--this is significant in light of the seemingly odd relationship--that they make sure to show us Jay being uncomfortable with--between Gal and Shel

* The fact that the guy who hired Jay and Gal for the round of jobs we're watching is (a) older than you might expect him to be, (b) comes off as a bit creepy yet powerful, (c) engages in a blood pact (cutting their hands), etc. (he gives off a bit of a "Tall Man" (Angus Scrimm in the Phantasm films) vibe, actually). Also later, when they talk to him again, suddenly he's in a room with a handful of similar men, suggesting something conspiratorial going on,

* The fact that something--we don't know exactly what--apparently happened that was very f-ed up when Jay and Gal did their last job together in Kiev, and their present employer as well as some people they're killing know about it,

* The fact that both the rabbit entrails in the yard and the dead cat are common as part of occult rituals, spells, etc.

* The fact that every time they show Jay returning home, it's framed in a manner, and with ominous music, that almost suggests it's the house in Amityville Horror or something

* The fact that victims seem to be almost grateful for being victims--smiling, thanking them, etc.

* The fact that at the hotel, Jay sees Fiona in a nightgown, in the field, waving to him, and later, the sacrificial victim at the ritual waves in just the same way,

* The fact that when we finally get to the climax, we clearly see that the people that hired Jay and Gal for this round of jobs are among the cultists.

--again, the above isn't at all a complete list, just some things to notice that you should expect to be tied in to the rest of the film somehow.

It's clear pretty early on, by the way, that something more is going on than simply Jay and Gal getting a new set of contracts. It becomes pretty clear that Jay (and probably Gal, too) is being set-up or double-crossed, etc. in some way (the mystery of Fiona, the fact that they discover photographs of themselves doing surveillance, the employer's threat-based refusal to allow someone else to finish the job, etc.), and we can make a reasonable guess that it must have something to do with Jay's past--specifically whatever went wrong with the Kiev job. (My early guess, by the way, was that Fiona was going to be a hit person herself, although as the occult-oriented stuff piled up, I figured that wouldn't be it.)

Now, add on to that that Kill List is strongly influenced in this final section by a host of other especially EuroHorror flicks, like the oft-mentioned Wicker Man as well as The City of the Dead and on and on, plus the knowledge that those films often have some climactic, tragic irony, plus all of the info above, plus the awareness by that point that the only thing Jay seems to really care about aside from Gal is his family, and he's emotional enough about the idea of something happening to them that he'll forget all of the precautions he should normally take, he'll even turn against his best friend at the thought of something untoward between Gal and his family, etc., then it becomes a very logical at that point to guess that what's under the sheet (and why is it under a sheet anyway?) would be the only things he cares about.

Of course, the film still leaves some things up in the air--the most important being whether Shel was "in on it" or not, but I am in the camp that thinks the film is better for leaving some things unexplained, because ultimately, it's shooting for Jay's horror, from a number of different angles, as things gradually and rather completely fall apart for him.



http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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If I remember correctly, one of the earliest scenes has the father play-fight with the son on the wife's back

Or your thing. Probably your thing

... Sanity and Happiness are an impossible combination ...

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It's important when you're watching a film to keep in mind that conventionally, every single thing you see and hear in a film--every single shot, everything a shot is designed to focus your attention on (which is achieved by techniques such as framing things in particular ways, lingering on particular things, subtly changing the literal camera focus on them, musical cues, more obvious things like character comments, and all sorts of other things), every bit of dialogue, etc., everything--it's all there, exactly the way it is, for a reason, with those reasons being, more or less in order of significance (a) to understand the temporal and spatial setting, (b) to understand something important about the characters, and (c) (the other two points ultimately factor into this one too) to gain important information, as well as foreshadowing, symbolism, etc. for the plot.

this makes me wonder why you even watch movies, because it doesn't seem to me like it would be enjoyable to analyze and scrutinize the movie that much while you're actively watching it. the point of watching a movie is to be entertained, not turn over every rock looking for the next surprise or pondering the plot twist at every turn while it's going on in front of you. save the analysis for the IMDB boards, not for while the movie is actually going on. you might find it to be a lot more enjoyable

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Right before that part, I had said:

" . . . it can also help you (and others) understand and enjoy films even more than you already do . . . for me, a lot of the following is simply intuitive at this point. I don't have to think all of this through."




http://rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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makes me wonder why you even watch movies, because it doesn't seem to me like it would be enjoyable
We all have different ways of watching films. It's not always in the viewers control either. They're not always actively turning everything over for clues and hints, they just subconsciously know to keep an eye out.
the point of watching a movie is to be entertained
Thinking and being entertained are not mutually exclusive. Well, they may be for some, but they don't have to be.
save the analysis for the IMDB boards, not for while the movie is actually going on. you might find it to be a lot more enjoyable
Your assumptions are borderline insulting. This all ALL relative.

We've met before, haven't we?

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As it's common on the internet to post unfriendly reactions without any information I take the liberty to send a post without any insight or information, too, just to say: I very much enjoyed your post, JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies :)
Thanks a lot!

Vetch

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Jrnlofeddideezestudie, this was a great post. Thanks for taking the time!

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That was the only thing in the whole film that was obvious. I knew as soon as they started in the ring that had to be his wife and it would be revealed. It also made sense.

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Same here. After seeing stuff like Old Boy & A Serbian Film, I'm prepared for anything.

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Just finally saw this film---my brother, who likes films as much as I do, told me about it a couple of years ago when it came out, and when i told him I still hadn't seen it, he said i should check it out, especially for the end. And, no I didn't expect what happened at the end-----to be honest, it seemed like the ending was a bit rushed, and it didn't make any sense to me how he didn't even bother to fight the cult members off after they'd captured him. The Movie was good and creepy up to the point by itself----like another poster said, I appreciated how the film didn't spoon-feed you anything, so that you had to figure out things about it all by yourself. And,frankly, some of thee scenes where the two main characters are doing their "jobs' were just too painful to watch,flat out. The main character was damn near a borderline psycho himself, and just plain mean as hell, too. Good film,pretty suspenseful in parts, but yeah, that last 20 mintues could have been more spelled out a little,though. And the actors were all excellent,too.

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same here. Though someone told it was like Serbian Film so I instantly realized it will be his wife and kid. Stupid movie, no explanation.

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"Its not the kind of film where plot has been spoon fed to us, so by being vague at the end, we're left with only our own interpretations of what has happened. People who need to have an ending spelled out to them obviously have no imagination and cant fill in the gaps for themselves." (cough, IMDB cliche, cough)


I bet it's hard for your kind to eat cereal, what with how much you hate feeding via spoons.
Do you also have difficulties presenting gifts on Christmas? I ask this because I presume you hate when things are wrapped up in neat little packages.


"Don't unform, you're a great mob. We'll think up something else to get upset about." Moe Sizlack

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I generally agree with your take on the end of Kill List. Still haven't found anyone who has asked the question of who exactly Jay is (if you recall, the Librarian thanks Jay for beating him literally to a pulp), but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. Just wanted to make the point, wanting to see a definitive ending and having a lazy imagination aren't codependent. I'm not sure it applies to this particular film thanks to its generally ambiguous tone but, as a rule, a plot that has no end is unfinished by default - more a sign of the writers lazy imagination I'd say (or in many cases, rushed and under pressure imagination). I like an ambiguous ending, my favourite film of all time would be John Carpenter's The Thing which has a doozey. I just think that a lot of the time, either the writers, the director or the studio, likely all three, have no idea how they want to finish a movie until about 5 minutes before they wrap. Too many shoe horned endings and out of character developments that brings a storyline to a head these days. My friend is a writer, he said to me "the hardest part is getting a complete story on the page. It's easy enough to take all the tissues out of the box, but almost impossible to put them all back in neatly". I still don't really know what he's talking about half the time, metaphorical prick!

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most women would be screaming especially knowing her son was killed by his father. she had to be in on the cult.

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Horrifying ending for sure. I don't know why Shel or the boy wouldn't yell out or scream out when they first got to the circle to start the fight. That would have alerted Jay of who they were. It didn't seem like they were gagged. After shooting cult members, I don't see how Shel or the boy could be in on it .

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