MovieChat Forums > The Man in the High Castle (2015) Discussion > Economic illiteracy: Germany would *not*...

Economic illiteracy: Germany would *not* be more advanced


I think the series is great as entertainment, but it is unfortunate that the writers seem to have a misguided notion of the likely outcome of Germany's authoritarian economic policies. It shows monorails in Berlin in a city that is implied to be prosperous and modern (monorails seem to be a common trope to indicate that) to a degree greater than US cities were in that year in the real world, more advanced high speed aircraft than we use today, and they talk about achieving goals like turning the Sahara desert green in ways we wouldn't realistically consider today (ignoring the debate over the propriety from an environmental perspective of doing so). The only area where the show suggests the real America developed more advanced technology by that year than the reich was the hydrogen bomb.

Some people who don't understand how economies function expected the former Soviet Union's centralized "command and control" system to be more prosperous and efficient than free markets, but of course reality proved otherwise. Free people have more incentive to create when they are working for their own benefit rather than that of an authoritarian state, whether the sort of attempted communism of the former USSR, or the sort of public-private partnership involved in the economic fascism of the National Socialist German Workers Party of the nazi reich. There is a misguided assumption that although the reich would infringe on personal freedom, that somehow a more command and control focused system would be able to more efficiently achieve goals.

It may be true that the ability to coercively direct resources towards 1 particular goal, e.g. a massive "build rocket planes" effort, might achieve that goal (since they keep throwing resources at it until they do), it would come at the expense of other aspects of the economy since governments aren't efficient. Historically private sector productivity improves over time, while governments tend to accumulate bloat. Economists and those who study organizational behavior see rational reasons for this due to differing incentives of the participants. Unfortunately studies show most of the public isn't economically illiterate, so it isn't surprising that writers might fall for the siren song of the "efficiency" of an authoritarian economic system under government control. Also, progress towards big goals tends to be sped up by progress elsewhere in the economy, which can suffer through centralized focus on particular narrow goals. For instance progress in computer technology sped up the development of advanced aircrafts.

The reich's extermination of its Jewish and other minority populations, and its many anti-intellectual attitudes where ideology was given priority over actual science, would have undermined their progress. There are always people interested in intellectual pursuits, even living within an authoritarian regime (there were intellectual advances in the USSR and China), but that sort of oppressive culture tends overall to inhibit the sort of experimentation and open minded thinking that is more likely to lead to progress (contrary to the portrayal of the more "free spirit" younger generation of Nicole et al that seem to be implying more experimentation even in the realm of personal freedom than seems likely to be tolerated in such a society, even among "elite" children). They might be paying lip service to that issue since they portray them as being behind where the actual US was in the development of a fusion bomb, unless they are merely viewing that as a minor historical accident rather than acknowledging a free society seems more likely to evolve science and technology faster overall.

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That's basically true, a Nazi regime would have a deleterious effect on German technological development. The few years they were in power before (and obviously during) the war were highly destructive for German development, and in this timeline they would be in power for another 20 years.

However Pre-Nazi Germany had a highly developed industrial, cultural and technological base, a potential rival in these fields to Britain and the US (what if the Nazis never got into power would be a fascinating alternative time line, a lot more of us would certainly be fluent in German). In comparison Russia was a backwards agrarian culture and still were a worthy opponent to the West for fifty years, until they started falling behind in the sixties.

Furthermore Germany would get a significant imperial boost. Gaining an empire can dramatically speed up developments, as among many other Britain and effectively the US discovered. By marshalling ideas and production capacity from across the world, unheard-of products could be developed.

Finally Nazi Germany in this timeline was not "ahead", for the most part the Nazi America is more primitive, often very much so, than "our" America at that time. That some technologies were more developed doesn't change that.

By the measure of the 1960's we are now more primitive than fifty years earlier. People in the 1960's were living in the space age, with scheduled commercial supersonic flights, something we don't have today, neither do we have manned space travel. Priorities change, and with that technology.

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You make some good point but you're overlooking some very important details:
1. Nazis only kept healthy people alive which would make for a HUGE saving in social security costs
2. they didn't care about moral implications of advancement - which means they would achieve their goal regardless if it was ethical or not
3. they conquered 2/3 of the world and it's resources and likely took-over all the US infrastructure ready to be exploited, at no cost

Jut from those 3 elements you can squeeze a lot of resources which can be re-directed for a bigger goal - just think how much they were able to do with just the resources they had during WW2, if they would've won, they would have just been motivated to continue with the advancements by having a lot more resources at their disposal.

So... I don't think the scenario presented in the series would have been very far from a possible history

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faster than we use today?
The Concorde was designed mostly in the 50's and early 60's and is much faster than the jets used today and is no longer in service.

The first monorails were designed in the 1800's. Disneyland used them in the early 60's. All types of economic systems produce subways and street car systems in the 1800's and before WW2 so why is this some revolutionary advancement?

If you knew history you'd know the Soviets in the 60's were considered one of the fastest growing economies in the world and like the Japanese in the 80's and Chinese now, were looked at as systems to copy in the US in some ways.

National Socialism was a quasi socialism that allowed innovators to become wealthy and successful. Industries were required to be self sufficient / profitable and not subsidized like in communistic countries. Banks weren't socialized - they were profitable PRIVATE enterprises.

OP is making foolish arguments which show a serious limitation of knowledge on the subject.

National Socialism's problems weren't economic, they were basically everything else. Personal freedom being the primary.

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Op seems a bit pro capitalist. It's possible for science and culture to evolve under different socioeconomic environments, it's probably possible for them to evolve independent of an economy, potentially in the mind of an isolated human (though that has never been tested).

Too many people schooled in the modern West think that progress and intellectual expansion is just not possible without some kind of free market economy and yet our species invented art and the wheel without any economy to speak of.

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This is questionable conjecture at best. Science has no inherent morality and neither do humans. It not only ignores the many scientific breakthroughs that were done in the Reich's luckily very short existence (Mengele, Zuse, Heisenberg alone suffice as examples), it also completely ignores that humans do not actually need freedom, they want the illusion of freedom, which is why they happily trade it in for other goods - material or immaterial - when given the choice.

The last decades of the U.S. being the best example of this. Liberties and freedoms were traded in for the illusion of security, safety and prosperity. Unless of course you wish to dispute that imminent domain, civil asset forfeiture, mass killings by militarized police because of non servile behavior, illegal mass-murder by drone warfare, regime change interventionist foreign policy, warrantless mass surveillance, torture camps, gentrification, collusion of corrupt government and media, a dissolving separation of power due to executive orders and many more things like those constitute a free and democratic nation. The U.S. citizens have traded in almost all of their freedoms already and most of them are still perfectly happy in their silent, servile obedience.

Furthermore, scientific success is not related to freedom at all, it is related to the availability and allocation of resources, including human intelligence, the existence of ethical limitations and the existence of ideological impositions on scientific endeavor. In all those regards a victorious Nazi empire would have vastly outpaced the real U.S.

Lastly it completely ignores that intelligence and morality are not causally linked at all. People can be extremely intelligent and subscribe to, or not actively oppose reprehensible ideologies, look at Zuse, Heisenberg, Heidegger, Mengele and many more. Or they can close their eyes to the real world application of their research, or they can be indifferent to human suffering altogether. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that a tyranny has to be inherently worse a place for scientific endeavor. Most tyrannies imposed limits on science for ideological reasons, so the argument would have to be why National Socialism would impose restrictions on scientific "progress", which I have yet to see evidence for.

Lastly the assertion that a tyranny could not possibly embrace some form of socialist market capitalism is a ridiculous claim. There is a difference between the state budget and private enterprise and consumers. Private enterprise and consumption did not cease to exist during the fascist reign, they took a back seat during the war, just like they did in the Ally economies, this is not exclusive to fascist regimes, it is exclusive to wartime economies. There is a massive difference between authoritarian left economic/societal policy and authoritarian right policy, both turn out catastrophic in regard to the atrocities they inevitably cause but that doesn't make their policies identical.



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This has little to do with what Germany by itself could or couldn't do.

They exploited the lands the conquered and Germany got Europe and much of America. In the meantime, Japan did not get the help it needed to become a tech and industry powerhouse.

If this is Locke, then who's in there?

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i don't believe that technology would be like that under nazi control. talking about from the show. i do enjoy seeing it though. it gives a different view on how things could have been. it reminds me of the fallout games. they have advanced techno that is mixed with that 50's lifestyle.

You can't persuade fanboys. You'd be better off trying to convince a wall. ~CodeNamePlasmaSnake~

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With pretty much ALL the resources in the world at their disposal? With no war to fight for 20 years? And German engineering combined with forced labor? I think they'd have been even farther than shown in 1962! The show really does not show any miracles.

Also, you don't know how the rest of the Reich looks because we haven't seen it. Totalitarism tends to focus on things to show off. Megalomania is a common trademark. Best example: North Korea. It's got a shiny capital and nukes. But the rest of the country is on the edge of starvation and basically living in mud huts. THAT is how totalitarian states work. By creating monuments for the Führer(s).

You can see it anywhere totalitarism was or still is at work. Either in plans (Albert Speer in the case of Nazi Germany) or in monumental buildings/achievements in places like the former Soviet Union that drained resources from everywhere else.

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