MovieChat Forums > Downton Abbey (2011) Discussion > Much a I love this series..

Much a I love this series..

posted 3 years ago by angelosdaughter (158)
20 replies | jump to latest

Binge re-watching. Some thoughts:
I think the series went downhill after the death of Matthew Crawley. The two most romantic stories: Sybil and Tom, Mary snd Matthew were unhappily over. Then we have needy whiny Edith who is so desperate for a husband that she would accept anything in pants. Who couldn't forsee her eventually having a child out of wedlock snd the heartbreak she would have to endure? Couldn't stand that stupid silly rebellious little Rose. It's a wonder the same thing didn't happen to her.
Tom and Mary were such good friends and allies. Since, in the end, she married "beneath her" it should have been Tom she married. The guy she does marry becomes Tom's partner in trade. He doesn't have much of a personality, no match for Mary's strong personality.
Of course all's well that ends well for all.
Love Mrs. Hughes and Carson, and Anna and Bates, even the somewhat reformed Barrow, and the innocent Daisy who finally finds her happily ever after. All in all, I still love the series .

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

Wow, I guess I found another Edith hater.
It is Mary, who is needy and whiny and demands to be adored by everybody while acting like an entitled bitch!
And while you try to slut-shame Edith and Rose, you seem to forget Mary's sexual escapades.
But perhaps you forgot that Mary nearly caused a scandal because of her reckless sexual behavior twice?

Mary and Tom had become like brother and sister and wouldn't work out as a couple.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 3 years ago

To each their own. Sick of the term _ _ _ whatever shaming. Some behavior deserves shaming. Keep your p. c. I don't subscribe to it. Edith is whiny and needy. But for the wife's coming upon them, she would have taken the farmer Drake for a lover. Mary's history before marriage consisted of one encounter that it could be argued was not completely consensual. Mary is the eldest, and because of the entail on the estate it is incumbent upon her to marry and produce a male heir, so she is educated, groomed, and spoiled to that end. Matthew, the heir to the estate because of the lack of Grantham sons, would be the favored candidate, just as in Pride and Prejudice, the Reverend Collins the heir to the entailed Bennett estate would have been a favored candidate for one of the Bennett girls. That would be the only way the Grantham and Bennett women could avoid being turned out of their homes, and be made dependent by the death of each family's Paterfamilias.
A close friendship and the common interest in the preservation of the estate would be a rock solid basis for a successful marriage between Tom and Mary. They are also the parents of two of the family's children by their deceased partners, another common interest. Love was not the main criterion for marriage among the holders of grand estates. The ability to keep them in the family was.
Lord Grantham said he wasn't in love when he married the American heiress Cora Levinson for her fortune to save the estate. Lots of those types of marriages occurred with American "Penny Princesses" I think they were called. Jenny Jerome, the mother of Winston Churchill was one such.
Love came after in those situations, if the spouses were lucky.
Rose was an empty-headed giggly little flirt who led men on and was lucky that those she pushed away after leading them on, went without causing complications.

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

To each their own. Sick of the term _ _ _ whatever shaming. Some behavior deserves shaming. Keep your p. c. I don't subscribe to it.

How lovely.

Edith is whiny and needy.

No, she's not.
Like I said, Mary is the one with a need to always be in the center of everybody's attention.

But for the wife's coming upon them, she would have taken the farmer Drake for a lover.

For which you don't blame him for anything, right?

Mary's history before marriage consisted of one encounter that it could be argued was not completely consensual.

She could have yelled for help, but decided to have casual sex with Pamuk instead.
Besides, you seem to forget that she also had casual sex with Tony Gillingham even though he was engaged!

A close friendship and the common interest in the preservation of the estate would be a rock solid basis for a successful marriage between Tom and Mary. They are also the parents of two of the family's children by their deceased partners, another common interest.

Again, they only saw each other as brother and sister.
Besides, it is not like they weren't there for each other anyway.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 3 years ago

P.C. has gone overboard. Nothing is wrong, no consequences for anything. I unashamedly don't subscribe to that herd mentality.
My reasoning makes sense in the mindset of the times. Yours doesn't.
Mary, the eldest daughter on whom rested the family's hopes for a successful marriage that would keep the estate in the family was raised to be the center of attention.
Whatever Mary did after Pahmuk entered her room and jumped on her would have caused a scandal. Drake's wife and anyone else would have blamed Edith for attempting to steal her husband. Women were held accountable for leading men on.
Different times. Edith had a habit/reputation for putting herself in the way of almost any single man, even Mary's cast-offs. Strallen did his best to push Edith away. She wouldn't be pushed away, forcing him finally to leave her at the altar to make the point that they were unsuited. She was just desperate for a man. Most women of the time would have avoided a liasion with a married man with an insane wife in an asylum. Not desperate Edith and as is usual, it doesn't go well for her. I would say she excels at shooting herself in the foot. She is easily the most irritating character in the series ably seconded by that silly little twit Rose.
If you watch the entire series with attention, Tom and Mary often support each other, and after Matthew dies, it is he who most effectively encourages Mary to carry out Matthew's vision to save the estate. He and Mary knew those plans. Theirs would have been a solid basis for a marriage along with the other factors I have mentioned.

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

It is pretty amazing that you can find excuses for anything that Mary did, but hate on Edith and Rose.

You seem to forget that Mary admitted to Matthew that she had felt lust for Pamuk.
And I don't see you commenting on her having sex with Tony Gillingham.
Will you claim that that wasn't consensual either?
And I seem to remember that he was engaged at the time.
But I guess that it only is a problem to you if Edith or Rose falls for a taken man.
Mary seems to have never done anything wrong in your opinion...

Edith acted just like a person would after growing up being neglected or bullied by her own family.
She would be very quick to accept love from anybody after such a childhood.
She only had the rotten luck that before Bertie, she seemed to only attract married men.
There was Anthony Strallan too, but Mary decided to ruin that relationship.
And later on, he was injured in the war and was pushed into jilting Edith again by her own family.
Which I can't believe that you think was a good thing!
I simply can't stop being surprised by the hatred, that I keep seeing for poor Edith...

Rose could be a reckless teenager, but happened to also be a much nicer person that the arrogant bitch Mary.
She seemed to be the least judgemental character on the show.
(Except for when her mother was concerned, but I want to believe that they too reconciled at some point.)
Rose managed to save her husband's family from a scandal as well, so she can't have been just a silly twit.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 3 years ago

You won't change my mind about whiny Edith who keeps making decisions that cause her to whine even more. Strallen himself thought the age difference between him and Edith was too great. She kept insinuating herself into his path
About Mary and Pamuk: in my opinion, what he did was tantamount to a rape. I have read that even in such a situation, the body of the victim may involuntarily respond, which Mary, probably mostly ignorant of sex, would not have known, causing her to feel guilt. She was certainly not expecting him to invade her room, and practically attack her. Anything she did to cry out for help would have raised the house, and because of who Pamuk was, have caused an immediate international scandal.
At least for awhile the incident remained the knowledge of only a few members of the household.
As for Mary's later assignation with Tony Gillingham, by then she had also been married and widowed, no longer inexperienced nor expected to be. I am now watching the episode where in a discussion with Anna, Mary remarks on the modern idea, that couples should be compatible in the bedroom as well as in other areas, and should try out that compatibility before deciding to marry, and that is what she does, and finds Tony wanting. She is in the beginning reluctant to consider Tony as a suitor. It is he who insists on pursuing her, leaving his would-be fiancee' to hang fire because he "has to marry" until he is sure Mary will not marry him. And after sleeping with Mary, he is shocked that she would reject his suit after having slept with him.
Whatever you think of Mary, she was born and bred to be who she is, and in spite of having to pursue an advantageous marriage, she slso has the brain and drive to help save and run the estate.
She does acquire some humility by the end of the series.
In any case, everything ends happily for all of the characters including Edith, who has acquired self-confidence and a titled husband and outranks Mary in the end.

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

Again, it is clear that you have different standards for Edith and Mary.
If a married man is attracted to Edith, you put all the blame on her and none on him.
Mary is however entitled according to you to try out Tony before marriage, despite the fact that he was engaged.
And when it comes to Mary's sexual escapades, that man is suddenly always a predator and she is a victim.
While you describe the poor neglected and bullied and hapless Edith as a ruthless man-eater!
Wow...

And as for Anthony Strallan, he could and should have broken up with Edith before the wedding.
Sure, I can see how writing in that way was more dramatic and "better television".
But it made him seem like more of a jerk than what he was otherwise.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 3 years ago

Very few men are going to refuse a woman who throws herself at him as Edith was always doing.
I don't believe in couples 'trying each other out' before marriage, but in the context of the series, that was what was happenng. Moral standards especially for women in the 1920s had loosened considerably. I don't know what you are going on about. These days standards regarding sexual morality have almost disappeared.
Tony's engagement was on hold by his doing as he rentlessly pursued Mary, who did try to tell him she did not want to marry anybody yet. He kept the other woman on the string, because in his words, he "had to marry" someone if he didn't succeed with Mary.
I think she agreed to sleep with him and then dump him to emphasize that she was not going to marry him. He was the pursuer, almost a male version of Edith, and then tried to play the honorable man card when he found out that in spite of having slept with him, she did not intend to marry him, hoping to guilt her into it.
Strallen was too nice, and didn't have it in him to outright refuse the pushy Edith until he was forced to do it definitively in a public way, in which she would have to take "No" as final.
He had tried to explain to her why they were unsuitable, but she refused to hear him.
Mary was who she was raised to be by virtue of being the firstborne and the hopeful rescuer of the entailed estate by making an advantageous marriage, which she did by marrying Matthew, the male heir upon whom the estate was entailed, and sealed it by bearing his son. Most of her misadventures after his death derived from not wanting to marry again until she could find a man who could make her as happy as Matthew had. I didn't have to like Mary, but in the context of birth order, the hopes and expectations placed upon her, and the times she lived in, I understand her, and she is to me, the most interesting character. I liked Sybil best of the sisters, and liked watching the evolution of Daisy
There is no point in continuing the conversation. We are never going to agree.

[–] whoanelly (1586) 3 years ago

Sing it, sister! 🍻

[–] whoanelly (1586) 3 years ago

Hahahahaha @ hypocrisy. The hypocrisy of disallowing the 21st century attitudes about slut-shaming but insisting on the 21st century attitudes about what constitutes rape.

Fellowes has already acknowledged that he never intended Mary and Pamuk to be interpreted that way. He should have used a sensitivity reader to avoid it.

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

Pamuk maybe was creepy by modern standards.
But it was clear that Mary wanted to sleep with him and even admitted to Matthew that she had felt lust for him.

[–] whoanelly (1586) 3 years ago

Exactly. ✋🏼

[–] whoanelly (1586) 3 years ago

You cannot argue that Mary and Pamuk wasn’t completely consensual. It was consensual because Julian Fellowes says it was. #canon His ham-fisted writing notwithstanding, Mary consented according to Dockery and Fellowes.

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

Thank you!

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 3 years ago

Yes, I can, no matter what Fellowes or Dockery said. Calling for help would have produced a scandal not just for the Crawleys, but also, because of who Pahmuk was, have provoked an international incident. In a situation like that there was nothing Mary could have done. He jumped on her uninvited, and was insistent.
I don't usually look for plot holes, but this was certainly one.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

angelosdaughter, why even come on here and refuse to listen to other opinions. You sound just like Trump never admitting to mistakes or errors because you feel it makes you look weak when in fact everyone knows THATS a lie. You are truly a bi-polar sociopath who should be locked up.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 2 years ago

People who resort to name calling have no credibility.
I may listen to opinions. That does not mean I have to agree with them to make everybody feel good.
Watching the series, I am able to see the
situation with the mindset of the time and place in which it is set. The aristocratic Crawley family is seeking a suitable match for Mary hoping to avoid the entail on the estate. If she had called out for help, she coùld have set in motion an international scandal because of who Pahmuk was. A woman who was at the center of such a scandal would be seen as soiled and less likely to be considered as a suitable bride for the aristocratic wealthy husband the family was hoping for.
I think you should do a little more reading, and if you don't know what an entail is, look it up.
In fact, I can't believe Fellowes missed that point.

[–] angelosdaughter (158) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Furienna (3345) 3 years ago

Again, why would she admit to Matthew that she felt lust for Pamuk if that wasn't the truth?
If it was supposed to be a matter of Mary being coerced, that is what the script would have told us.
You're just looking for ways to find excuses for her actions even when it doesn't even make sense anymore!