Why are men so afraid?


This is a good intelligent film which portrays the angst and confusion people feel in relationships. Michelle Williams' character Margot suffers a lot for her decisions and is clearly unhappy. Her "cheating" is not superficial or shallow but is part of her complex, confused personality, which ends up with her feeling lost and that she is just repeating her pattern with another man. The men here who talk about feminist male-bashing or double standards are just idiots who miss all the depth in this movie. Why can't men (like me) accept this challenge and grow up?

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Maybe it's because there are still a few of us grown boys out there who actually believe in the naive romanticized notions of 'love' and feel, when one professes to 'love' another, --as she did many times in the film-- that that type of infidelity is simply wrong.

She has her cake, and she's eating it too.
Then she see's another cake and wants to be greedy.
Much like a pig.
The same thing could be said if the protagonist were a male.

But sadly these are just the childish notions of a man-boy who has been bombarded with manufactured ideals of 'love' implemented by actual grown-ups that think up the age-old stories, songs, poems, and other media most of us are exposed to as we live life.

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Muyo, I believe in love too, but I think the "bad behaviour" in relationships that many of us exhibit at various times in our lives is more through being lost, confused and insecure, than being "wrong". Just like Margot.
"I love you, but I was unfaithful." Not uncommon.

My main point however is that too many people here see this film as male-bashing rather than see the complexities in human relationships.

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I think strict lifelong monogamy is overrated and almost fetishised. That said, though, I think you--and a lot of people, apparently--have missed the point of this movie. By including the clue early on of "new things get old", and then adding the coda on the porch steps, the screenwriter is clearly tipping his/her hand that Michelle Williams's character has *made a mistake* and she knows it.

--------
See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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>I think strict lifelong monogamy is overrated and almost fetishised.

Let's try not to be so predictable.

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Immaturity is part of all our complex personalities at some level. We're all imperfect (this sounds like religious proselytising but it's not!) and that's why we can sympathise with her. Who hasn't acted foolishly in love, and made mistakes over and over again, whatever age we are?

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[deleted]

Thanks AdamBomb for identifying my value system so accurately. I had no idea that I saw a youthful mistake of the heart as the same as stabbing and raping. So now I realise, there are right things and there are wrong things and that's the end of that discussion.

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Immaturity is part of all our complex personalities at some level. We're all imperfect


Sure, but as far as movies go I see a trend where immature men are forced to grow up (virtually EVERY comedy where the man is the main character) whereas an immature woman is to be tolerated and/or accepted.

It's like how a common rom com cliche is the guy lying about something and the girl finding out and running off/breaking up, and the guy has to apologize and convince her to take him back.

But if the girl is the liar or the one with a secret, it's usually still up to the guy to make the mad dash across town and confess is love to her and/or she never has to explicitly apologize for her actions or admit those actions were wrong in any way.

Immature women in movies are not held to the same standard as their male counterparts. I am a firm believer of equality among the sexes, so I think it's safe to say this is a sexist double standard.

Don't try to cash in love, that check will always bounce.

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"Her "cheating" is not superficial or shallow but is part of her complex, confused personality"

Why do you put cheating in quotation marks? How is cheating on a spouse anything BUT superficial and shallow in general (not to mention the supreme douche bag she cheats with in this movie)? Using your line of thought, one might argue that women that relate to the protagonist of this film are "afraid" of admitting to being 'not so great' human beings. The Michelle Williams character isn't "complex" at all. She is an infantile, whiny bore, who happens to be sexually attractive.

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Some people find themselves in a relationship that they no longer want to be in, or where they no longer feel good in. And not just abusive relationships, but perhaps when with someone for many years and as they both grow and mature and change, they want different things. This happens quite a lot, you may have noticed.
So when people get tempted or even seek out someone else, it might be just immature, gratuitous cheating, or it might be something more complex. Not all adultery/cheating is the same. To call ALL of it "cheating" is to deny the complexity of it.

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"Some people find themselves in a relationship that they no longer want to be in, or where they no longer feel good in. And not just abusive relationships, but perhaps when with someone for many years and as they both grow and mature and change, they want different things. This happens quite a lot, you may have noticed."

Absolutely. So, if you're married and find yourself 'wanting', you should be fair to your spouse and get a divorce before you realize your desires for others. Overall, though, I don't think the film maker was as apologetic to the protagonist as you're being; "So when people get tempted or even seek out someone else, it might be just immature, gratuitous cheating, or it might be something more complex. Not all adultery/cheating is the same. To call ALL of it "cheating" is to deny the complexity of it."

She cheats on her husband. She may well have 'complex' feelings about it, but it is still cheating. I really don't mean to be simply contentious, but yes, all cheating is cheating. Only emotional cowards do it. I don't see any way around this fact of life.

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"So, if you're married and find yourself 'wanting', you should be fair to your spouse and get a divorce before you realize your desires for others"

Yes, and in an ideal world this would always happen. But this is not ideal and people don't follow this simple rule. Sometimes they're lazy, unfair, feckless, nasty, uncaring and immature. But sometimes they're so unhappy and shocked by new feelings for a new person that they don't follow these reasonable rules, even against their own beliefs and values.
People, feelings, life are all more complex than some people here are making them out to be.

I put "cheating" in commas because cheating is always bad, but not all spouses who look elsewhere are. If you're simply looking for fun etc. then that's cheating, but if you're seriously unhappy or unfulfilled then you may be doing something else which does not warrant such a punitive, damning, word as cheating. It is not always cowardly. You talk in absolutes; "always, never, cheating is cheating, only cowards, people should...". The world isn't like that, and this movie shows people who are not like that, and your town is full of people who are not like that, just like every other town.

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"You talk in absolutes; "always, never, cheating is cheating, only cowards, people should...". The world isn't like that, and this movie shows people who are not like that, and your town is full of people who are not like that, just like every other town."


Sorry, but cheating IS cheating. Again, I'm not even commenting on the film when I say this, but adultery is cheating. You can accuse me of speaking in absolutes, but I would just retort that you don't seem to know the basic meanings of simple terms and words. If you find yourself banging a person OTHER than the person you're actively married to without said spouse being aware of it, you're cheating. It is very simple. And people that get married and then are so emotionally insecure as to bang other people without telling their partner about it beforehand ARE cowards. Call me judgmental if it makes you feel better, but it isn't that hard to simply address these concerns before you go around banging the douchey neighbor guy. And I never insinuated that my town isn't full of people like that, but that doesn't mean these people aren't emotional cowards.

You're defending the character of this film on an almost ridiculous level. You essentially define her as a flawed character, and then when I underline the ways in which she is flawed, you contentiously disagree.

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To say "Cheating is cheating" is self-evidently true, but meaningless. I could say "Lying is lying" and yet list a dozen ways in which lying is not evil, but even acceptable or kind (Does my bum look big in this?)
I've never denied she's flawed, of course she is, but her flawed nature, like all of ours, is complex. You can crucify her "If that makes you feel better" or you can see it in a bit of a wider perspective.

"Our towns being full of this" is my way of saying that this behaviour is everywhere and we can say tut tut how naughty, cowardly and wrong but where does that get us? It's not interesting, it's simply judgemental and is blind to the more interesting fact that people do bad things for complex reasons which are not understood by us simply saying "you are a bad, cheating person!" If you want that, go to Church or a Conservative/Republican rally.

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"To say "Cheating is cheating" is self-evidently true, but meaningless."

If it is self evidently true, it isn't meaningless. It is the simple use of words.




"I could say "Lying is lying" and yet list a dozen ways in which lying is not evil, but even acceptable or kind (Does my bum look big in this?) "

Now you're comparing banging the douche bag neighbor to telling your wife (or husband) she/he isn't fat. Like I said, you're being a bit ridiculous.




"I've never denied she's flawed, of course she is, but her flawed nature, like all of ours, is complex."

Part of my issue with the film is that I felt her actions were extremely flawed, to the point that she wasn't a relatable character. She seemed to have psychological issues that the film didn't really establish. I didn't feel sorry for her because she was as flawed as we all are, but because she seemed to be emotionally disturbed or challenged. She was a bit over the top.


"You can crucify her "If that makes you feel better" or you can see it in a bit of a wider perspective. "

How am I 'crucifying' her? Her character is an emotional coward. I'm pretty sure that's how the writer/ director intended her to be seen.



""Our towns being full of this" is my way of saying that this behaviour is everywhere and we can say tut tut how naughty, cowardly and wrong but where does that get us?"

But you're apologizing for the character as though she has done nothing wrong. She has. That doesn't mean she is satan, but it does mean she has done morally questionable things.





"It's not interesting, it's simply judgemental and is blind to the more interesting fact that people do bad things for complex reasons which are not understood by us simply saying "you are a bad, cheating person!" If you want that, go to Church or a Conservative/Republican rally."

What's not interesting, is not questioning anything this character does and apologizing for any and everything she does because she is a complex animal as we all are. I never said she was a "bad" or irredeemable character, but that some of her actions and choices were 'bad' in my view. When you say I should go to church or to a Republican rally it just shows your own insecurity in actually legitimizing your ridiculous statements heretofore.

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Ok, this particular dialogue has run its course, and is off track anyway. (Remember men?). I don't agree with your stance and think it's all more psychologically complex than you do, but it's become tedious now. Thanks for the exchange of thoughts.

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[deleted]

Brilliant Adam, first you help me understand how I confuse a willingness to see human complexity with being a rapist, and now you tell me I'm a typical cheater. What a guy.

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Brilliant Adam, first you help me understand how I confuse a willingness to see human complexity with being a rapist, and now you tell me I'm a typical cheater. What a guy.



*High five*!!!

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[deleted]

[deleted]

If you find yourself banging a person OTHER than the person you're actively married to without said spouse being aware of it, you're cheating. It is very simple.

I'm confused. What part of the movie was this?
I recall her leaving her husband before she even as much as kissed another person. Was my copy missing a scene?

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Ignore that poster Annie Chan, he's just an unintelligent idiot (you can tell by the word "banging")who provokes simple-minded arguing to give his life some meaning.

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[deleted]

they were already cheating when they were flirting and saying they wanted to bang each other. how is that not cheating already. making plans with the guy? so stupid.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/marcusd/retrod

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[deleted]

having sexually explicit conversations with a person other than the one you profess to love is a betrayal of the sanctity of the relationship.

I have no belief in the sanctity of relationships. Either you are so in love with somebody that you can't think of anything else, or...you aren't. Ideas of sanctity are made to stiffen resolve when there isn't enough there, there.

As a flirt, I also don't consider badinage a betrayal.














Scostatevi profani! Melpomene son io...


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[deleted]

Why is scepticism ever so mutual! I wish love were...
















Scostatevi profani! Melpomene son io...


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The way I see it Margot isn't someone you're supposed to fully sympathize with.
That is very clear especially in the last scene when she walks away from Seth Rogens character with tears in her eyes. Probably realizing how emotionally conflicted she is and regretting her "mistake". You can see how torn up she is when she is about to cheat on Rogens character.
This film isn't about moralities. Relationships aren't made of steel, love is a fragile thing. It is clear from the start that their relationship isn't working perfectly. If you dislike the film because you are unable to put aside your own fear of being cheated on then whatever. Still one of my favorite movies ever.

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Ged59, you've put up the question about (all) men being so afraid, but upon every reply in this thread your counter-argument is the SAME ONE: people should not be made responsible for their decisions.
Perhaps, the "devil made them do it"?
I'm certain you wanted to bait people by declaring that people "who miss all the depth in this movie" are "just idiots", but whenever there was a reply, all we got from you was a mantra that's not illuminated with examples, but simply repetitive.
If you want us simply to commend you on your unique respect for the "depth in this movie" just say so. Then nobody wastes their time here under the pretense of discussion and argument.
Coaching tip: you want to own this board, work on your rebounds.

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Interesting reply ClintsFlicks. My counter-argument is the SAME ONE because I believe it and I'm being consistent. Would you rather I replied with different arguments each time?
I'm not saying people are not responsible for their decisions (that would be ridiculous)- I'm saying that human psychology is complex, and to merely condemn a person for straying from their relationship would mean we condemn most of the world. People stray for all sorts of reasons, some of them even good.

In this film , Margot is confused and doomed to repeat her mistakes. Condemn that if condemning is your preferred style, or alternatively you could be interested in it in a more neutral way, and recognise how common it is.

And men are afraid. Of being accused, in the way women have for centuries.



Mistrust all those whose impulse to punish is strong.

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Ged makes well thought out points...the problem with this entire discussion against as it has devolved into a value judgement on the characters rather than a commentary/critique of the film itself. Whether you're monogamous, poly-amourous, or define "cheating" as looking at another person with desire is of no consequence.

The question is does the film tell an affecting story - reveal some part of human nature in a way that allows us access into their lives. And for all those judgmental types, you may want to pay attention to the end of the film where Margot ends up right where she started -- which imho is the message Ms. Polley is trying to get across -- if you don't deal with "it", you will not evolve. "It" being whatever you determine Margot's flaw to be (emotional immaturity may be one).

So give your values a rest, and look at the work for what it is.

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Why couldn't her husband just try a little harder? There were so many signs. If you see your relationship/partner slipping away, why not do all within your power to salvage it/them? He didn't even fight for her.

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She should be the one actually trying to salvage her relationship and rekindle her relationship and respect her vows... Her husband cant be at fault for his wifes horrible shortcomings. Women almost always refuse responsibility for their actions....... that is why marriage rates in the west are at their lowest.. Men are checking out by the droves.

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She did try-- she kept trying to get closer to him physically and he kept rebuffing her.

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Why can't you accept that you are simply a whore apologist?

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Why do you put "cheating" in quotation marks?

I agree that the double-standard thing is dubious from the get-go (I'm not all that convinced by the proposition that male cheaters are almost universally seen as negative in films, mostly because I could start naming one instance after another where that's not true).

If people are reading this as some kind of "she cheated, and it was just fine" kind of film, boy, are they ever missing the point. I agree completely that she suffers a lot. So does Lou. So does the "other man." So do the friends. So does her sort-of-ex niece. And on and on. The film is an examination of how easy it is to slide into cheating, one toe at a time, just getting a little intrigued and then finding yourself blowing up the place, and yourself with it. It's real pain. IMHO, it was excruciating to watch, and incredibly valuable, also. But if you're saying that people are missing the point by seeing this as an individualized issue of what Margot did or didn't do, or whether it was a lark for her or it wasn't, yeah, I think that's right. It's an examination of the state of adultery. It even leads to questions about marriage itself -- like, do you really mean it when you say "forsaking all others"? Forever? Until you die? Most people, I think, don't even think about that very deeply. You forego all kinds of other paths, roads not taken. In a way, it's an acknowledgement of your own limitedness and your own mortality. And then, if you don't want to create mass pain in ways you haven't even thought of, you have to stick to it. One and only one, until you pass from this world into whatever comes next, or nothing. Makes you take a big breath even to think about it. That, to me, is exactly what the film is trying to do.

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