MovieChat Forums > Melancholia (2011) Discussion > On 2nd Viewing...9-21-12 (Not About Depr...

On 2nd Viewing...9-21-12 (Not About Depression)


I still think that this is the deepest, most intellectually and visually artistic movie ever. There is the difficult first half and a number of people have defended the movie on the basis that it is about depression and should be understood on these terms.

And it is masterful in this regards...but I see this more now as the story of everyone's life; happiness, promises made, promises broken, despair and joy, friendship and all the bumps of family fellowship, but even more largely it is about faith, faith in science, faith in the self made shelter of the magic cave of religion...and all are helpless, useless in our intimate, ever so sensual and slow dance with ever approaching death.

People want a story? It is about everything; and a hard, unflinching message it is indeed.

Weep worthy, for ourselves.

Best Wishes, Traveller

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"I still think that this is the deepest, most intellectually and visually artistic movie ever."

Well that explains a lot about the rest of your post right there *eye roll*
This movie is artsy fartsy crap. I'm sure all the Nibiru believers just love this movie also.

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I had no idea about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_cataclysm

But no, that's not where I found value...I believe in Artsy-Fartsy to teach us about ourselves...an ongoing education we all need to...participate in.

This movie was work...it was not successful for you.

For me, it was magical in nuance and insight into the human condition.

No big, we just disagree.

Traveller

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Artsy fartsy is a term I use for the flakey movies that think so highly of itself , that people can't see the major faults but instead swoon all over it like it's wonderful.
Magical? I found it dreary and without merit other than to show how the characters all had their heads stuck up their own behinds. As far as the "human condition" goes, I think that anyone that can like this POS needs some therapy of their own.

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You don't have to like it. I thought it was wonderful. But the fact that some people get so ANGRY at art movies and the people that like art movies is funny to me.

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"Love means never having to say you're ugly." - the Abominable Dr. Phibes

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I think I speak for fiji5555 when I say that people like us get angry at artsy fartsy movies like this because they waste 90-120 minutes of our lives.

I guess there are people like you that appreciate conveying a message with images, obscure references, and people emoting. That's fine. Just don't assume that because we don't like them we're stupid or incapable of understanding them.

I just think these artsy fartsy films are totally unnecessary. I just think, "It took you two hours to tell me that depression sucks? Why didn't you just say, 'Depression sucks' and give me my two hours back?"

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I'd sure give ya your lousy 2 hours if you'd go away, or maybe go jump in the lake. Who gives a *beep* about your 2 hours???

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People who call anything "artsy fartsy" are people who don't "GET" depth in anything and take things at face value (however misunderstood)...because they can't see things for what they really are; they term it "artsy fartsy" and go on with their boring lives.

Oder: Wie ich aufhören, sich Sorgen und Liebe die Bombe gelernt!

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I have to agree with this, based on the evidence given. The person using "artsy-fartsy" was unable to intelligently articulate exactly WHY they think as such, and why the movie didn't work for them. So yes, some people need a story spoon fed. And, some people simply just don't like the "thinkin'" movies, which is fine. Art is like that. I may have different tastes in music, paintings, and women (beauty)... but at least I can express why without using an Ad-Hominem"ish" term.



http://us.imdb.com/name/nm2339870/

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It reminds me of this:

"and thus his intelligence is questioned, no one can accept that, not even to themselves" - Revolver (2005)

You cannot just accept that there's something there that you cannot see, especially not if that's because of your lack of intelligence. Hence, denying that it exists is the easier way to go.

Don't you think the alternative to be unacceptable?

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Perfect post.

What better than a reference to a dialogue from another insightful movie.

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But there really were no characters. They were representations of ideas, emotions, etc. Just like there wasn't some real planet coming towards Earth called Melancholia. There were no death pills. The list goes on. That's what I think you're not getting.

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I agree with Traveller. I thought the movie was absolutely amazing! It had magically haunting moments, along with faith, despair and ignorance. I think it was a brilliant move to film the movie in an isolated, beautiful and elaborate setting with all it's majestic magnificence in order to magnify the pretentiousness of how people with wealth are raised to hide their true emotions at all costs and where manners and what people think of you are all that matter. We usually are a product of our upbringing and to see the emotional struggle and how each character grappled with how they thought they were supposed to act externally with how they really felt internally was what made it mesmerizing. It's refreshing to actually see a movie that focuses on acting over cgi effects. The landscape, imagery and melodic music along with the appearance of the planet closing in was both enchanting and discomforting. If this movie was in a different setting in the middle of town with a different level of society with special effects it would have been a totally different movie. There are already an abundance of those especially with 12/21/12 approaching. Melancholia was just plain refreshing in a depressing sort of way. I personally like a movie better when it makes you think or feel something, when you find one that does both then you know you have found something worth talking about.

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...I think our reward will be in 50 years when this is still a very well regarded movie....most other stuff not so much.

I too loved the small detail that kept showing up, (the 19th hole, Udo Kier, the wedding planner holding his had up against his face to not have to see Clare), but the class consciousness was there also...Justine not understanding why her previously faithful servant would rather spend the end of the world with his family rather than show up for work for her....Justine seems genuinely startled by the idea.

So small telling touches all over this movie...and besides how did TS Eliot see this:

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.


Having Googled the above,

I rather also liked stanza V

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death’s twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

Be that as it may, I am still asking myself if the first half needed to be as difficult as it was? Not bad mind you, but certainly more difficult than Part 3, Justine.

Best Wishes, Traveller

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The only magical parts were when we got to see Kirsten Dunst nude and even that was ruined by the sub-par acing. and masturbatory nature of the entire film.

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Fiji... you are beyond rude. Do you understand the concept of exchanging thoughts and ideas in a way that is not hostile?

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Fiji... you are beyond rude. Do you understand the concept of exchanging thoughts and ideas in a way that is not hostile?


Are you really going to be so cruel as to try and deprive him of his vague anti-intellectual attitude and kindergarten insults? It's all he has, damn it.

The bitter thinkers buy their tickets to go find God like a piggy in a fair

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Instead of criticizing fiji5555's opinion let's think of the term "artsy-fartsy."

You see, Melancholia is a Romantic film in some ways. Looking at the score, for instance, Tristan und Isolde is considered a very Romantic piece by Wagner, and it saturates the film's overall tone.

The Modern world is in many ways antithetical to Romanticism, and Romance interpreted through the eyes of a Modernist becomes "artsy-fartsy" because it is about evoking strong emotions and in many ways resembles a pipe-dream fantasy.

Here is a brief link to Romanticism:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/art/restor.html

Melancholia embraces Romanticism somewhat, though the film itself undermines it through dark humor.

Here is a cool essay that I liked about the film:

http://reframe.sussex.ac.uk/sequence/files/2012/12/MELANCHOLIA-or-The-Romantic-Anti-Sublime-SEQUENCE-1.1-2012-Steven-Shaviro.pdf

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Second that. These artsy fartsy crap films are just a conjob - they provide little substance in a ploy to get you to do all the work. Viewers who have a habit of or indulge in projecting themselves (onto what is essentially blank canvas here) buy it hook, line and sinker. Viewers who refuse to believe something is good because they're told they should think it's good see right through the facade. I call shenanigans.

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I think you are spot on Traveller. It's a movie about life. Note how small and brief a role work plays.

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Indeed, usually people that live in gigantic estates enjoy that luxury.

If this film was about a checkout clerk they'd have been scheduled to work until 4 hours after earth was destroyed.

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Terrific film... brilliantly executed.

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Sounds like someone responding to your post here prefers movies of this type to be like ARMAGEDDON, instead of like this majestically woven tale that tells an often told story in a profound, new light.
I especially like that the story just revolves around this family. Nothing about how the rest of the world is dealing with Melancholia's impending impact with Earth is shown, other than claire's internet search.
This movie has earned a special place in my mind. Just hearing or seeing the title opens up something in me I haven't yet grasped yet.


"I find your lack of faith, disturbing."

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Sounds like some one likes to think as themselves as "superior" to the "lowly humans" that disagree. Get a life or better yet stop being so pompous. People like you make me ill. Majestic? Yeah right. *eyeroll*

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Now it sounds like someone's feeling guilty, because I never mentioned anything about feeling superior, or for that matter, never directed my comment directly at you. I was merely pointing out that some preffered the direct information type of movie, and others the thought provoking type, and that seemed to be what was deciding the vote, for or against MELANCHOLIA.
I happen to like both types myself, for I also loved ARMAGEDDON. And your not liking the movie (Majestic? Yeah right. *eyeroll*) doesn't change the fact that it is a GREAT movie. If that makes you feel lowly and ill, that's your problem, not my problem.



"I find your lack of faith, disturbing."

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Oh please........."some one" must be me since I was the only one in this thread who didn't like the movie, so at least speak to me directly.

So now you think of yourself as being a psychologist by stating I'm "feeling guilty"? POMPOUS indeed. "Direct information movies" vs "thought provoking" POMPOUS. You're too full of yourself to see your own faults.

No it's silly POMPOUS posts like yours that make me ill.

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fiji5555: Sounds like some one likes to think as themselves as "superior" to the "lowly humans" that disagree.

While that's not what the OP was saying, do you really believe that all people have the same ability to appreciate a film, a book, a poem or any other work?
... stop being so pompous.

Where was the OP being pompous?

From your (mistaken) interpretation of what the OP wrote, it sounds like you think anyone with discriminating taste is "pompous." True?
Majestic? Yeah right. *eyeroll*

Writing things like "*eyeroll*" is the written equivalent of a grunt. If you have a reason for disagreeing, then tell us why; but if you just have some inchoate dislike of what someone has written, wouldn't your time be better spent writing nothing and working out why you feel what you feel?

For example, a Marxist might write: "Bourgeois people often affect a liking for what passes as art, regardless of what they truly like. As a proletarian, I express my disgust for the bourgeoisie by mocking their professed artistic taste."

I look forward to your efforts.

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See my response above. I don't feel like typing a semi novel to satisfy your questioning. Yet another arm chair psychologist I see. They come out in droves for this crap movie. You bore me.

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My post contained no armchair psychology: it just asked a few simple questions. Once again you replied with a grunt.

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*GRUNT* there THAT was a grunt. Learn to read.

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Grunt? You may grunt and take your joy in it. However, I will continue to disagree...you Grunt, I'll write....lol (and a smile)

Since Melancholia is now on Showtime Cable, I've seen it yet again...I love here in the limo so happy and full of the promise of life...they genuinely seem to be in love and happy.

Justine is mad because they are late...but it truly wasn't their fault...it was actually Justine and her husband's fault for having the wedding reception in that lavish setting where a limo could not navigate...yet Clare never really complains about this fact...but that is the truth...someone should have anticipated that a limo could not have made it down that road.

Then of course, everything starts falling apart.

I cannot justify her treatment of Michael...except that this is how real people often are...when they fall out of love...they are just done. Clare was done.

There does not even have to be a reason for it...it is just real within one of the two parties to the relationship.

Sad...but there you have it, a million times a day all over the world. There is nothing surprising in this fact.

Best Wishes, Traveller

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Gosh and golly such words of wisdom from Captain Obvious.
No kidding Sherlock.

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"Artsy Fartsy"??? This coming from a person who can't put together a grammatically correct sentence.

When did movies that were considered normal movies get put into the "art house" category? That was considered the "norm" even in the early 2000's. Then the advent of animated and superhero type movies came along, as well as stupid comedies full of vulgarity and gratuitous sex and the super gratuitous action movies with so many acts of violence as to become laughable.

The Hollywood clan is putting this out for a dumbed down American population of today's forever children. It's even a law that parents have to pay for children's health insurance (or at least put them on)until they are 26. They require they be going to school and think insurance companies won't require proof, but they will. This is what this country has become, a bunch of "forever children".

Melancholia is a good movie in my opinion, not great, but it kept me watching and the time flew. This type of movie falls into the supernatural category and we would see these types cut into half it's size and shown on "The Twilight Zone" which I loved. Video games, etc. poisoned the mind right where the "creative" part is in young people. They no longer create things themselves because they don't have to be creative anymore, just let a small group of others give them something to play with like toddlers do.

I like the way one poster called it a "thinking" movie. I want to think about movie afterward and go off and discuss it; not just watch it.




IMDb; where 14 year olds can act like jaded 40 year old critics...another poster

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What I took from this movie is probably not the same from what many people took from it.

To me, after watching this absolutely stunning movie, the biggest message that stuck in my mind (and no I don't know why I got this idea) is that we must accept death when it is about to come, and the absence of life is really not a big deal at all, because when you think about it, once you die, there's nothing left to think/worry about since YOU'RE DEAD!

In other words, this movie opened me up to living my life as happily as I could but still accept death as some sort of a relief from all the troubles that come with life.

anybody else got this concept from Melancholia?

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...you found the essential truth of the movie. I was a little irritated today to see someone complain that scientifically the facts of planet interaction was wrong...

Geeze.

For me, as with you apparently, this is one of the rare instances where Art helps one live a better/happier life.

But it is a difficult message...we live, we try to hide in our little magic cave of science or religion or family or our children...but we still die utterly.

The movie made me feel stronger...damned if I know exactly why, but that was its effect on me.

For others...maybe even the idea of them really dying is beyond their consciousness.

There's nothing wrong in this...I'm trying to understand the really negative rejectionist feelings this seems to evoke in many people.

Thanks for your thoughts however.

Best Wishes, Traveller

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You don't understand the negative rejectionist feelings that are brought on by death? They are completely normal - Claire's reaction is the human reaction. I can't understand how anyone could be as calm and cool as Justine was at the end - in real life she would be flipping out and running screaming down the golf course pulling her hair out.

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..to deal with these feelings, to try to understand them, prepare and live well in the interim.

I'll recommend Earnst Becker's The Denial of Death which won the Pulitzer prize in 1974, a while ago I'll admit, but it is still the defining work on Man's utter inability to even contemplate their own non-existence and what this means in terms of mankind's development.

I'd give the link to Amazon but I'm not sure that a commercial link is permitted.

In any case Death is a Universal requirement...for you, for any of us.

So it is, or should, be of some concern...if only as a reason or spur to live well.

Which is what Melancholia did for me.

But I'm a big Art person anyhow...so this fits me like a well tailored suit.

Best Wishes, Traveller

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Because you can't understand the wish to be dead. I think for Justine, this was a miracle. This is one of the most beautiful movies I've ever seen.

What's it going to be then, eh?

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I don't think Justine wished for death. All in all, I cannot understand such a wish either, though I can empathize with the acceptance of death.

The first half of the movie was infuriating for me. I could not identify with Justine, nor bring myself to care about her in any way, given the way she acted with near-zero consideration. It wasn't until the "I know things" moment that I was able to refactor all of those moments in light of her (perhaps at the time subconscious) awareness that the world was about to end.

It wasn't that she wished for death, she was just aware that it was approaching for not only herself, but for all life (as she knows it). What pilio_17 said is a concept that I've held true for years, and it has brought me solace as a person with no faith. On many levels, I simply refuse to worry or be stressed by events and consequences which I have no control over. Period.

On another note, I was also annoyed by the abuse of science. Justine's ability to "know" things is an element that I can give up to suspension of disbelief, but if a movie is otherwise to be set in the known physical universe, it would be nice if the laws of physics were respected a little. Such glaring errors can be quite the distraction from the principle themes of the movie.

That as well being said, I recently watched Prometheus, and I found this movie to be far superior, though it does not make any of my top # lists.

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Ok, sure. You people on here claim to be all calm and cool about death.

It's inevitable so why fight it?

Because it's in our nature to fight it.

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Oh Doug--while in general you are probably correct, I must completely disagree with you that Justine would be flipping out.

Have you never known anyone who lives in constant anxiety when things are fine, but who suddenly becomes the most effective person in a true emergency?

I have--myself! Going to the grocery store causes me great anxiety, and there are days when I cannot talk myself into dealing with it.

Yet I recently had to evacuate my herd of horses in the midst of a fire--which was within 1/4 mile of us when I was trying to load them into my trailer. We were, literally, the last people out of the area.

My sister--who loves grocery shopping--was not just useless, but was making my horses panic further because of her utter panic. I had to call other family members to help. They all later told me how freaked out they were, but they were sensible enough to follow my lead.

If you really need to load a horse in an emergency, the worst thing in the world you can do is telegraph your own panic to add to theirs.

I guess the need to protect them is part of why I became completely calm.

**Just like Justine needed to protect her nephew.**

I'm not sure people who have never experienced this will get it, but I hope this helps to clarify somewhat.

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When I first watched, it was hard to get into, but I was drawn. I am clinically depressed, maybe that's what kept me in it. Watched it for the 2nd time tonight (cause after Part II, you KNOW you need to re-watch for signs).

I get the living a better life part of it, but I also see it as examining the futility of life. Kirsten seems to take pleasure in the little things, laugh at things that make others frustrated, yet cry about things which bring others joy.

I guess I'm a little confused now. It does show how different people react to impending doom, and there are some surprises in there.

When you have a well-acted, nuanced movie, fine, let people call it artsy-fartsy, to me it takes me to another level where I can live another life and contemplate challenges to my pre-conceived ideas.

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Talking to Figi is like playing piano for a cow

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Completely agree Traveler, Melancholia slowly approaches like impending death. Thanks for sharing.

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I thought it had little depth, and showed nothing about the human condition. It failed to create psychologically credible (or even consistent) characters, though Claire comes closest. Yes, it touches upon death, depression, love, promises, etc but because it failed to do good character development, all of that rang hollow to me, and it indeed became pretentious - props to give the illusion of depth rather than create depth. This sort of "prop" was present in Antichrist to an even greater degree (making it chock-full of Biblical allusions, for example), but that was more original in some respects and the cinematography was much better. Because the characters were ultimately so unconvincing, their fate had no impact on me and failed to be even entertaining, let alone moving. The impression it left on me was of a director who assumed the (melo)dramatic backdrop - the end of the world, no less - would be enough to turn everything that happened into high drama, without having to do the nitty-gritty of character development, etc.
Combining a wedding and clinical depression is an interesting idea, not least visually (whiteness both symbolising joy and purity, and being associated with hospitals and, in some cultures, death), but it was poorly executed. Von Trier is by no means my favourite director, but I expected more from him.

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I also tremendously enjoyed the movie. Nowadays it is seldom to see a movie that makes you think about it for weeks after you have seen it. It has some great photography, beautifully combined Wagner's music with outstanding acting and last but not least, great story. I loved the story and how its several layers are being "peeled off" in front of our eyes. I fully agree with the Traveller007 and think this is a rare example of visual art masterpiece.
All credits to the director and the crew.

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And don't forget Kirsten Dunst gives us her best performance to date.


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