MovieChat Forums > Kill Your Darlings (2024) Discussion > Unfair and One Sided Portrayal of Carr

Unfair and One Sided Portrayal of Carr


I went into this movie not knowing much of anything about the characters involved. Obviously I knew they were all members of the beat generation and I'd read their books in high school, but I didn't know much about their personal lives and certainly not anything about the murder of David Kammerer, so I honestly went into watching this movie with no expectations and an open mind. Honestly, I was watching because I'm a fan of Radcliffe and was impressed with Dahaan in Spiderman.

At the end of the movie, I was left feeling a little bit confused, if not uncomfortable, with how Carr was portrayed. In the end, Ginsberg seemed to think of him as evil, a user and manipulator, and ultimately, did not think the murder of Kammerer was justified, which was revealed when he said, "You loved him too," as if that excused Kammerer's actions. Ginsberg seemed to sympathize with Kammerer - like Carr was some manipulative mastermind.

Ginsberg thought Kammarer was a pest, but then he found the picture of Carr with Kammerer in Mexico and his whole outlook changed. Why would a picture of Kammerer and Carr sitting together in Mexico change the fact that Kammerer was a stalker? Why does the fact that Kammerer was the one that checked Carr into the mental institution change that?

It left me feeling confused because to me, through the entire film, Carr and Kammarer's relationship was an abusive one. Whether it was psychologically or sexually was unclear, but it was clearly abusive. All the facts in the movie pointed to that being the case, but Ginsberg's reactions to the facts were confusing to me. He seemed to be conflicted about whether or not he should defend Carr, when to me it was pretty clear Carr was a victim of abuse who had finally snapped on his predator.

I mean, I was sitting there looking at that picture thinking to myself how sad it was that Kammerer had groomed Carr to a point that while detesting him, he also still needed him in a messed up way. But Ginsberg seemed to see it as a sort of betrayal. Like Carr had lead Kammerer on or something and that him falling out of "love" with him was unfair to Kammerer in some way.

It just made me feel so uncomfortable. But the movie wasn't exactly clear about all the facts - so I came here to maybe get some clarity from other IMDB users only to find that most questions were about whether Carr was gay or a homophobe. To me, it was clear Carr was a heterosexual boy that was confused about his sexuality because of the abusive relationship he had with Kammerer. And the murder was not a hate crime, but a desperate attempt of a victim to rid himself of his stalker. But maybe I'd missed something?

I decided to do some research into the murder so that I could understand it further. Because maybe the age difference wasn't as large as I was imagining it to be? Maybe there were some things that I missed that would elude to why Ginsberg felt so betrayed or conflicted or why other viewers were confused about Carr's sexuality?

But it only got worse once I started looking into it. Carr met Kammerer through boy scouts. He was 12 and Kammerer was his 26 year old troop leader. Carr's father had left him and his mother very early on in his life and Kammerer was his only father figure. Kammerer inserted himself into Carr's life and up and relocated four times to follow Carr around the country starting when Carr went to high school in Massachusetts.

In what world can this be seen as anything other than a sexual predator grooming a child? In what world is Carr's seemingly manipulative behavior not a result of years of emotional abuse? In what world is "You loved him once," some source of conflict? Of course he loved him once. He didn't know any better. To him, Kammerer's love was normal and he appreciated it because he never got it from his father. But he wasn't a boy anymore. He was becoming a man and no longer needed Kammerer - especially not in the way Kammerer wanted him to need him. In what world is a young man trying to rid himself of a grown man stalking him unfair?

The movie had this heavy handed, ambiguous sort of mood that left the viewer questioning what the nature of the murder of Kammerer was, and the only conflict I felt at the end was that the producers of the movie wanted me to feel confused about the situation when, in fact, I was not. The nature of the murder didn't seem ambiguous at all - so Ginsberg's conflict just felt odd. They wanted us to question whether Carr was evil or manipulative when to me it seemed the only manipulator was Kammerer.

In what world is a grown man following a child around the country romantic? And why are we questioning whether Kammerer's love was reciprocated when any affection Carr might have given Kammarer was clearly the result of being groomed since the age of 12?

Finally, it seemed they wanted us to question Carr's sexuality. It portrayed Carr as a self-hating gay man. And maybe he was. But that doesn't ring true to me. As it turns out, Carr had a steady girlfriend at Columbia named Celine whom Kammerer would often threaten to kill when he was drunk. She was left out of the movie. Included, instead, was the highly disputed relationship between Carr and Ginsberg. The only reason I could think of to justify that was to leave the audience more confused about Carr's sexuality.

Even the language of the closing "epilogue" incinuated that Carr was manipulative. "Portraying David Kammarer as a homosexual preditor, Lucien Carr plead guilty." Portrayed him as a preditor? He WAS a predator. The movie wants us to question whether he was or not, but all the facts of the situation says he was one.

And in the end, the biggest manipulator was not Carr, or even Kammarer, but the producers of this movie.

[b]I guess, in the end, I felt the movie tried to make a very clear case of sexual abuse ambiguous. It was far too generous to Kammarer and villianized Carr in a way that struck me as odd and ludicrous (especially now that I've looked further into the murder).



So I was wondering what your thoughts were on this IMDB users?

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I agree with your version of Carr''s and Kammerer's characterization. However I think we are bringing a modern take to it. Ginsberg's views on those relationships were very different and I think the movie was making a somewhat honest attempt to show how Ginsberg's later views were formed. He himself was notorious for defending relationships between young/old partners ( and I won't even get into the NAMBLA controversy). Ultimately I think we have to view this movie as a biopic of the young Ginsberg and the events that influenced his writings rather than the story of Carr and Kammerer.

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What I can't understand is why Carr's mother never went to the police regarding David Kammerer's dogged pursuit of her under-aged son. And why was Lucien even alone with David as was shown in that Mexico postcard (assuming that they were in Mexico together) if she thought he was a predator?

What confused Ginsberg in the film was when he was doing his research for Carr's defense and he came across the fact that heterosexual men were not charged with first-degree murder if they used self-defense against a homosexual man. He believed Carr to be homosexual at that point and thought he was only saying he was heterosexual to avoid being imprisoned for life. This coloured Ginsberg's feelings toward Carr.

I agree that the Kammerer/Carr relationship was abusive. Kammerer should have been charged, especially since Carr was a minor when it first began.






And all the pieces matter (The Wire)

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Well, pedophilia was handled differently back in the 40s and 50s. You didn't go to the police back then for fear of the effect on your reputation. That's why she tried to handle it herself, I'm guessing, by moving Lucien from school to school in hopes of getting away from David.

And in terms of the trip to Mexico, Lucien's mother said he misled her and she didn't know David would be going with him until she saw him in her driveway. I would guess that Lucien's relationship with him at that point was much more complicated (as in he probably didn't know yet that the way David was treating him was inappropriate).

And yes, Ginsberg's views probably were colored - but I don't understand why the movie had to be so one sided. A lot of people are arguing that it was because he was the narrator, so his view was the only one that could be portrayed, but then all the scenes that don;t include him are a complete farce (the murder scene, for example).

I just think the movie could have been more fair to Lucien.

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But the murder and how it was committed are not in dispute. That was depicted as described by Carr. It's the motivation and the backstory that the movie takes liberties with. But I was sympathetic to Carr throughout. He seemed like a lost boy to me. Superficially more sophisticated and outgoing than Allen, but torn and conflicted about his actions. It was clear that he wanted to break away from Kammerer and saw murder as his only way out. Whether that is ever justified is another issue - it was clear that he was being stalked albeit by someone sympathetic too. I thought the film was quite nuanced that way rather than turning Kammerer into a complete monster, he was this sad and pathetic guy trying to hang on to a person who had outgrown him.

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I thought the film was quite nuanced that way rather than turning Kammerer into a complete monster, he was this sad and pathetic guy trying to hang on to a person who had outgrown him.


This was the problematic aspect to me.

Kammerer wasn't ever Carr's friend or lover. Kammerer was a textbook pedophile whose grooming tactics on Carr were unsuccessful. Carr wasn't just a person who outgrew Kammerer, he was a young boy who had realized Kammerer's hold on him wasn't appropriate or normal.

This insinuation that Kammerer is just a pathetic victim of unrequited love makes me so angry. No. He was a 26 year old man that inserted himself into a 12 year old's life and followed him around the country. That boy realized this wasn't normal and kicked him to the curb. Why should anyone feel bad for him because Carr "outgrew" him?

Obviously, murder is never the answer. But Kammerer wasn't just pathetic. He was a pedophile.

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I think that it just highlights the fact that pedophiles can be regular people that you could meet and think they are nice or erudite. They aren't crazy, they aren't overtly violent, They don't present as monsters unless you are in the room with them when they are having sex with a child.

And you don't have that going on in this time period in their lives. When I said he was sad and pathetic, I didn't mean to imply that I felt sorry for him - but the dynamic of the relationship had obviously changed. I don't think I ever felt sorry for him but I did understand where Ginsberg was coming from when he said that Carr didn't have to kill him. Carr had a mother who was concerned about him, a place of his own to live in, numerous friends and ways that he could have broken away from Kammerer. And of course ultimately Ginsberg does remain friends with Carr so he obviously does not think that he is a cold blooded murderer.

I think the only way this movie could have depicted this differently was if Kammerer was shown to have attacked Carr on that night and had been killed in self defense. Should they have taken such liberties at odds with the court records?

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I have to say that you have been thinking a lot about this, but I also have to add that what you are saying seems pretty true to me. I had this strange feeling after watching the movie. This feeling of betrayal from Lucian's side. What he did was something out of frustration and desperation, something that have been bobbling inside him for so many years, and yet Allan could not see what really happened.

It was hurtful to watch these two people, who clearly had some form of connection, slowly drift apart because of a 'misunderstanding' or just a lack of honesty.

But you are right when you say that the movie makes Lucian seem like the bad guy, which he clearly is not. I cannot understand his character or what he has been through, but I would have assumed that Allan would have been by his side when something like that happened, instead of judging him and not coming to hear Lucian's side of the story.

But I totally agree with how you feel, and now that I think about it (I actually thought Lucian was a sad homosexual guy) it makes sense that he might just be a confused young man, who is unsure and insecure.

God woman, you made me think about this movie to much. It's not JUST a movie to me anymore, it's something bigger..

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I agree, although after doing some research, what bothered me most about the ending was: "After his expulsion from Columbia University, Allen Ginsberg became one of the most awarded poets in American history. He dedicated his first published collection, Howl and Other Poems to Lucien Carr. In response, Lucien asked that his name be withdrawn from all further editions."

It just paints a picture of the two being on bad terms when all the articles I read about them state that all the boys, including Carr and Ginsberg, remained close friends. I got the impression Carr only asked Ginsberg to remove his name because he wanted to live his life in peace and away from the public eye, to be forgotten. It's assumed Carr would hate the idea of a movie bringing attention to him. He was "the forgotten beat" by choice. I also read somewhere that it was believed Kammerer tried to rape Carr, and not for the first time, when Carr stabbed him. I don't know if that's true though, but I did read it (I'm very bad at remembering sources).

I do love the movie though. Dane DeHaan, Ben Foster. My god they were brilliant. Ben Foster in the tub, with that mask on... Favorite scene, although one of many. "Know thyself and *beep* thyself," and "Show me the man who is both sober and happy, and I will show you the crinkled anus of a lying *beep* *standing ovation*

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Dozens of times, lots of different ways. Every night, I save you.

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Oh, for all my complaining, I really did enjoy the movie. The acting was spot on. Great performances from DeHaan and Foster, as you mentioned. It's just these historical inaccuracies that kind of put a damper on it.

My favorite from the ending slides was, "Portraying David Kammarer as a homosexual predator, Lucien Carr plead guilty…"

The word "portraying" has such a negative connotation, like Lucien was lying, or just trying to lessen his sentence by scandalizing an innocent man. Why couldn't they say "testifying"?

IDK. The movie was just really quick to take Kammerer's side.

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It wasn't quick to take Kammerer's side per se, it was quick to take Ginsberg's side. The way I understood it, after doing some research (again.. so obsessed), the whole movie is Ginsberg's version only, what Carr's son says is a made-up version of what happened. They have written it from his perspective and didn't consider anyone else's. For example, when Lucien turned himself in I've read descriptions of him as resigned and calm, sitting quietly and reading poetry. He never tried to kill himself in prison and he never asked for or needed Ginsberg's help. That part of it, Carr needing Ginsberg and being distraught, is just how Ginsberg wished it was.

Another thing they changed as a result of this being Ginsberg's version is Kerouac's importance. Carr, Edie, Jack and Carr's girlfriend often went on double dates at this time and hung out in Edie's apartment. Jack was probably Carr's best friend (he was the person he went to after the murder and his roommate after his two years in prison), but in the movie he's an unimportant character.

I think the movie would've felt more honest and more interesting if they had presented it, not just as a "true story" but as Ginsberg's story. If maybe there had been more hinting at him rewriting things to fit his own fantasy (for example, those scenes when he writes and some scenes rewind), it would've felt less like they were presenting his version as truth.

Another interesting thing to point out is that they showed Ginsberg in the end as having no sympathy for Carr after what he did, but they left out the part about Ginsberg being a supporter and member of North American Man/Boy Love Association, a detail that shines some critical light on this stance.

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Dozens of times, lots of different ways. Every night, I save you.

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I don't think the film makers were suggesting that Ginsberg's take on the murder was the correct one.

He may have been the center of the story, but was ever so unflatteringly portrayed as a drug-addled, chronic masturbator who in his own way was obsessed with Carr eventually turning on him when rejected (hell hath no fury ...) by informing the desperate Kammarer of his whereabouts. That may have been done out of anger or spite or because he related to Kammarer's feelings or both ... neither of which is a righteous scenario.

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As you all have pointed out — even coming late to the party and just doing some basic research — there's a LOT that's not true in this "True Story!" of the Beats' birth and the murder. There seemed to be a clearly biased one-view agenda by the filmmakers which really didn't serve the story or the movie well ... eg: threads like this.

There's a good article here http://brianhassett.com/2013/09/kill-your-darlings-review/

that goes into the various facts of the story that don't jibe with the movie including the convenient omission of Lucien having a steady and gorgeous girlfriend during the whole time the takes place. And as somebody else pointed out here — it was Jack who was Lucien's close friend (and they remained so for life) not Allen.

It's too bad when movies like this are made that present themselves as "true" when they're so far from it — but I applaud everybody on here for whom this didn't ring true ... then took the time to look into it and find out.

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He [Carr] was 12 and Kammerer was his 26 year old troop leader.
Why does Wikipedia state that Carr was 14? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_Carr)

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[deleted]

This, from another post I did here:

We will never know what actually happened with Kammerer. I've read many conflicting accounts and none of them add up to a perfect story. So this movie is what's called a "fictionalization." See, what the writers did was take a piece of history that was incredibly ambiguous and "fictionalize" the circumstances around it. This process is called "writing." Writers will often "write" to fill in these historical gaps and tell an interesting story. Tony Kushner didn't actually know what Abraham Lincoln said all the time, but he "wrote" as though he did. Then, when Steven Spielberg made the film Lincoln, he cast an actor who pretended to be Abraham Lincoln. It was all very, very interesting.

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I get what you're saying, but I think OP's point still stands if you ignore the real life facts for a second and just speak of the film on its own terms. IIRC, the film implies that Carr had been forced into the "relationship" when he was a teenager. So the creep factor is still there, and the way the film tried to paint it as morally ambiguous was downright disturbing. What was depicted was an abusive relationship, period, and I don't understand how anyone could see otherwise. I 100% agree with OP (well, not the part about Carr's sexuality, but that's another matter).

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I felt the movie tried to portray Lucien as sort of an antagonist as well. I mean he was manipulative, and generally very emotionally distant when Allen was clearly into him but i never saw him as evil in fact i believe he cared for his friends as much as someone like him could. I agree he was abused and the "You loved him once" line disgusts me like you said of course he did he didn't know any better as a young teen. I felt Allen was being one sided on the case because he barley even seemed to care his friend tried to commit suicide because of Kammaraer and saw him as a righteous hero for checking him into a hospital. Also Allen seemed to be under the impression Carr didn't learn any of this manipulative behavior or had problems being in a relationship because of Kammaraer and almost sided with him because he felt they were in the same boat being obsessed with the same guy. I'm not saying Lucien should have murdered anyone, of course not, but it was clear the anger was justified and David was certainly not a healthy person for him. I don't get why the theatrical cut also doesn't include the deleted scene where they sort of make up and talk about the news its not only more historically accurate it shows Allen just had an understandable burst of anger towards Lu but they remained friends. Carr's entire epilogue scene plus the picture on the wall seemed to signify Allen was right in leaving an evil person and they never spoke again, neither of which are true. I agree with the OP Carr was problematic but understandably so and didn't deserve to be fully left by his friend like the theatrical version of the film suggests.

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