MovieChat Forums > The Irishman (2019) Discussion > First time watching it

First time watching it

posted a year ago by jpssteveshanahan (482)
19 replies | jump to latest

Just saw this movie last night and have a couple of questions.

Obvious spoilers:

1) Who was Frank telling his story to? We obviously see him narrating the events of the movie in his "cuido" to someone. But their identity is never revealed. Was it that nurse at the end that was taking his pressure?

2) When they have that meeting with him about the Laundromat business. Did he already burn it down or was it before the fact? Since it was never shown. I'm leaning towards the latter.

3) Did his family find out he was having an affair?

4) Did he ever make peace with his daughter? There's a tracking shot near the end where the camera finds its way towards the inside of his room. I thought it could have been her.

5) Would she have been more understanding of his situation. If he explained to her that he did what he had to do, to keep his family safe?

6) Why was she distant to Bufallino (who was also her godfather I think) but so warm and receptive to Hoffa's character? Okay! She obviously knew or at least suspected that Bufallino had her father work on questionable matters. But she must have known that Hoffa wasn't exactly a model citizen, either! Whom also employed her father on activities that were anything but legal!

So why the double standard!?

7) Did Hoffa's stepson suspect that Frank had something to do with what happened to his father? He obviously drove him to meet up with Hoffa on the same day that he went "missing".

He would have been smart enough to know that that wasn't a coincidence.

8) Why did he refuse cooperate with the authorities in the end? They made it clear to him that everyone he worked for during that part of his life was dead. So why the need to keep quiet? They just wanted closure for Hoffa's surviving family. Unless, of course he lacked immunity and didn't wanna risk implicating himself. Ain't no statute of limitations for murder!

But why tell his story to begin with?

The way Hoffa was killed in the end stuck with me. As soon as he enters the house and finds that no one is there. He instantly smells a set up and attempts to leave (urging Frank to do the same). But before he has a chance to rush out the front door. Frank puts two in the back of his head. En verdad me dio pena the way he cried out, just before he died.
He never saw it coming. Especially not from his old friend. I'm know that wasn't how Hoffa really died. But the dramatic impact from this scene cannot be understated.

[–] ExTechOp (2770) a year ago

I thought he was confessing to a priest as part of his last rites, knowing he was nearing his life's end

His daughter liked Hoffa because Hoffa was naturally likeable where Bufallino wasn't. Nor was her father for that matter. I don't think it goes much deeper than that, other than maybe Hoffa's public persona suggested he was less of a criminal than her father and godfather were.

He'll never cooperate with authorities. That's just his nature and code.

Hoffa's death was sad, I agree, sadder than Tommy's in "Goodfellas" since he was more likeable than Tommy and less evil.

No answers to your other questions, tho, especially re: the stepson. I just finally saw this myself and had heard it was disappointing. It wasn't at all bad, but it wasn't "Goodfellas" or "Casino," that's all.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) a year ago

''I thought he was confessing to a priest as part of his last rites, knowing he was nearing his life's end''

Oh, yeah! I completely forgot about that part. Thanks for reminding.

''I don't think it goes much deeper than that''

Yeah! Maybe I'm overanalyzing? 🤔

But even if Hoffa aparentaba ser otra cosa, publicamente. She must have been aware of the rumors and allegations of him on the news, I don't know.

''He'll never cooperate with authorities. That's just his nature and code''

This☝️

I agree that he didn't deserve to die. But he kept pissing off the wrong people. Other users have claimed that the real life Hoffa wan't this stubbornly fixated in opposing the mob. ''Unrealistic'', they say! Well! There's a reason why it's a movie, and not a documentary.

Even though the guy was a loose cannon and was causing problem for his bosses. I think Joe Pesci's death in ''Casino'' was the most brutal. They forced him to witness his brother get beaten to death with a pair of baseball bats. You could even hear him sobbing in the background. That was too much.

''No answers to your other questions, tho''

No worries, mate! I appreciate you taking the time. I'll wait till my intial impression wears off, so I can judge it with a sound mind and then determine how it compares to other Martin Scorsese's classics. But I think it was good. An old fashioned "man's film". With all the violence, profanity and non political correctness you'd expect from a Martin Scorsese flick.

My brother couldn't stand Pacino's overacting 😁

[–] [email protected] (2042) 9 months ago

How did Pacino overact here? He and Pesci were the best in this film.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

I'll definitely give you Pesci! How did he not win best supporting actor, is beyond me!? But Pacino (no offense) seemed like he was rehashing his role of Tony Montana. With his constant temper tantrums, and his yelling, and cursing and screaming all over the place!

They should probably rebrand this movie "Scarface: The Senior Years" 😁

[–] [email protected] (2042) 9 months ago

I don't think you paid attention to both films tbh. And Al also demonstrated an outburst of anger and shouting in Dog Day Afternoon as well as TGF2.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

You know! I used to think that Pacino began "mailing it in" in his later years. But eventually realized that even in his early work he was already going through his "hoo ha" phase! 😁

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

Which obviously shows the incredible amount of restraint he demonstrated in The Godfather.

Except the third one of course!

[–] [email protected] (2042) 9 months ago

Actually count the number of times he shouts in TGF2 and TGF3, it's the same amount. The problem with his character is how it is written. I get Coppola's intent, if you watch TGF Epic, you will see more of the playful Michael Corleone you see in tgf3 in the early TGF before he got into the business. Problem is that they were deleted and certain scenes is uncharacteristic of Michael which is due to Coppola writing it in, like Michael grumbling after the failed Immobiliere initial deal. Pacino had issues with TGF script in how Michael was written because he didn't see Michael as acting in certain ways Coppola insisted, even the hairdresser which has been there since TGF1, walked out on Coppola when he had Al's hair cut. Al, Diane and the hairdresser disagreed with this choice but that's how Coppola wanted it, which caused a long term friend and colleague to never work with Coppola again.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

Oh, God! The hair! Everyone talks about the hairstyle 😁

I'm not familiar with the dispute Francisco may have had with his hairdresser, but I did read that he received a call from Pacino's legal team to inform him that their client would not reprise his role for the sequel. On the count that the script didn't agree with him. Which forced Coppola to make last minute changes, to accommodate Pacino as much as possible. I also remember that Michael wasn't as icy in the book when compared to his on screen counterpart. Coppola made it a point to destroy the Corleone family. Let not forget he originally wanted the third installment to be called "the death of Michael Corleone". So maybe that had something to do with it.

My mind goes back to that deleted scene where The Godfather paid a visit to a dying Gengo. Even though he was obviously busy, managing the affairs of his daughter's wedding. He nonetheless acquiesced Gengo's final request to spend the night and help him meet death. I even saw a deleted snapshot where The Godfather gave Gengo a parting kiss on the cheek. A farewell to an old friend. After witnessing this touching moment. I couldn't help but wonder if Michael (especially GFII Michael) would have done the same. Sonny, probably! Fredo, definitely! Even Tom. But with Mikey... I'm not so sure!

And to be honest! At face value, Al seemed like un "malagradecido". Considering that Francisco had to fight tooth and nail to keep him in the picture. I think the least he could have done was to contact Francisco directly as opposed through a legal buffer and talked it out, man to man. But then again! Pacino was still young and inexperienced during this time. Maybe he didn't know como dar la cara, so to speak.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but I find it hard to believe they didn't want him for the role of Michael. They were also against the idea of casting Brando for the titular role. This basically echoes the following sentiment that has stood the test of time.

"Studio executives! What do they know" 😁

[–] [email protected] (2042) 8 months ago

Hey, sorry for the late reply, I had to google your spanish! But that's not the reason for the late reply, so sorry.

As for Pacino having his team replying to Coppola instead of a personal call, that is strange I agree. I wonder if they had a falling out. Pacino seems to be grateful to Coppola for casting him but also frustrated because he had such a bad experience filming it. He also mentions that Coppola called him to his place/restaurant (not sure) eating a meal with his family, but had Pacino standing there, instead of inviting him to sit down.

I recall reading that Coppola asked Pacino to be his lead in 2 films which Pacino turned down, so I wonder if Pacino has some 'tampo' with Coppola as we say in my country.

I did hear that Pacino did not agree with the weakening of Micahel's character, he also said he never saw Michael as a gangster nor regretting his actions. It seems these were concerns that were never addressed, I mean we all watched TGF3 no? Coppola also took tgf in directions even Puzo disagreed with. Puzo romanticized the Corleone family but Coppola like you said, wanted to destroy them.

As for the Genco scene, that's intact in The Godfather Epic or Saga, if you havent seen it yet, i uploaded it somewhere to stream and I can link it to you via a pm. I honestly think Michael had the same sentiments and heart Vito did, but Michael lived in a different time from Vito. Vito never experienced a betrayal by his own family, by the very people he loved and protected. Michael did (Fredo, Kay, and Pentangelli). Vito also never experienced the lost of a wife, only to be replaced by a last minute gal. I truly believe that Michael loved Apollonia but not Kay, he learned to love Kay, but she was not Vito's Mama Corleone, that was Apollonia. With Apollonia and teh countless betrayals, Michael became colder and more suspicious of people.

I am glad that despite everyone, Coppola fought for Pacino, even Pacino doubted himself in the role.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 3 months ago

I am so sorry about the delayed reply. Wasn't putting you off! Just busy with work and college (among other things).

"I had to google your spanish!"

Yeah! I tend to mix up my English and Spanish. Which is why Spanglish is my native "go to" language 😁

"As for Pacino having his team replying to Coppola instead of a personal call, that is strange I agree"

Looked that up on Wikipedia years ago. Don't think it's even there anymore. So take it with a grain of salt.

"Pacino seems to be grateful to Coppola for casting him but also frustrated because he had such a bad experience filming it"

Yeah. That wasn't Coppola's fault. It was the executives that gave him and the other actors such a hard time. It's been well documented that Coppola fought tooth and nail for him. "The kid stays in the picture".

"He also mentions that Coppola called him to his place/restaurant (not sure) eating a meal with his family, but had Pacino standing there, instead of inviting him to sit down"

Really!? First time I read about that incident. Where can I find this interview or article?

"I recall reading that Coppola asked Pacino to be his lead in 2 films which Pacino turned down"

I know he turned down "Apocalypse Now" due to reportedly not liking the idea of being overseas for nearly 18 months or so. The other picture! I do not know of.

"I did hear that Pacino did not agree with the weakening of Micahel's character"

I think everyone close to Coppola during the making of GFIII disagreed with the direction he took Michael's character in.

"As for the Genco scene, that's intact in The Godfather Epic or Saga, if you havent seen it yet, i uploaded it somewhere to stream and I can link it to you via a pm"

I appreciate it, but I think I already saw it. The scene where Vito pays his old consigliere a final visit, right?

"Michael had the same sentiments and heart Vito did, but Michael lived in a different time from Vito"

Others have typed the same sentiment.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 3 months ago

"Vito never experienced a betrayal by his own family, by the very people he loved"

Same as my previous reply. They say that it would have been theoretically plausible for Vito to have had to have deal with a possible miscarriage from his wife. But never an abortion. As Michael himself confided in his mom when she naively stated that he could never lose his family. "Times are changing".

"Vito also never experienced the lost of a wife, only to be replaced by a last minute gal. I truly believe that Michael loved Apollonia but not Kay, he learned to love Kay, but she was not Vito's Mama Corleone, that was Apollonia"

This is a subject that's been debated for decades. "Who did Michael love more" Though I wouldn't consider Kay a "last minute replacement". Remember that she was a part of Michael's life long before he meet Apollonia. And ironically! Apollonia herself would most likely never have had an abortion. And unlike Kay! She would have been likely content with just being the wife of a powerful man who may or may not be involved in large scale criminal activities 😁

"I am glad that despite everyone, Coppola fought for Pacino, even Pacino doubted himself in the role"

This!☝️

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

I'm aware that pundits are critical of Michael's "transformation" from the second one to the third one as out of character. But I think I kinda understand Coppola's rationale! Even though I don't completely agree with it.

"Spoilers ahead"

The most obvious thing to point out is the timeline. There's a canonical 20 year gap between GFII and GFIII. It goes without saying that 20 years is a long time. One's perspective of things can drastically change during that kind of time period. I'm 39 and if I compared myself to when I was 19. I almost feel like a completely different person, due to the many years of life experience I attained since then. Maybe the same can be said for Michael.

Let's look at the facts, and again! Spoilers:

It goes without saying that the death of Fredo, deeply affected him (this was evident during his confession). Especially considering that he himself was directly responsible. The guilt was obviously weighing on his conscious for a very long time. Maybe after the death of Fredo, Michael eventually learned that he needed to be a more "compassionate" and forgiving Don, like his father. Maybe he eventually realized that ruling a family with an iron fist wasn't always the best approach. Maybe his desire to seek redemption caused him to "gradually" become softer and more understanding to those that were closest to him. Keep in mind that personalities don't change overnight. If GFIII took place immediately after the end of the second one and you suddenly saw Michael making jokes, not taking himself seriously as a mob boss, admitting his mistakes, trying to win Kay over and begging for forgiveness (not to mention the dew). THEN I would say his performance was out of character. But the audience is suddenly thrown into 1979 and we never get to see what gradual changes occurred to him during that 20 year period.

At least this is how I rationalize Coppola's thought process. Though I don't necessarily agree with it 110%.

[–] [email protected] (2042) 8 months ago

Like you, I can understand Coppola's vision for TGF3, but wish he listened to Al, Puzo, and the hairstylist a bit more.

However, I don't think the transformation from tgf2 to tgf3 is as big a leap or different as some claim. I really recommend watching tgf epic, it has more scenes of a playful Michael prior to getting into the family business. Coppola attempted to have Michael revert back to who he was prior to becoming a Don. It makes sense given, Michael's whole plan and trajectory was to legitimize the family, took him longer than 5 years though. And with his goal in reach, and the la costra nostra seemingly behind him, he felt he could become what he once was.

The problem I have is like you said, Coppola just plops the audience 20 years after tgf2. We do not see any transitions, nor do we see a remnant of Michael from TGF2. The cutting of the hair is symbolic of cutting off everything we know of Michael from tgf2. I think this was a fatal mistake by Coppola, as a storyteller, he must realize that his audience must be taken through the journey, not just fast forwarded to the end. Especially since we have been with Michael even before he became involved with the family, so we are all attached to him, this past 15 (tgf2 to tgf3). So to have a well beloved and known character change physically (his hair) and characteristically from where we saw him last (tgf2), it is very jarring.

Not to mention, having his daughter in a significant role made it all much worse. I don't even think Winona Ryder was the right call for the part, IMO Marissa Tomei would've been the right age, looked like Pacino, and had the acting chops for what was needed.

Coppola however, did say that he was under time pressure making tgf3 and he needed months, instead of weeks to work on the script. So maybe the problems of tgf3 wasn't Coppola's fault, but the producers who interfered once again.

Funny, I'm close to your age but I feel like my personality at 12, is still who I am now.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

And I just thought of something! Remember what he told Kay in the second one? "I learned that I have the strength to change".

You could argue that he was already trying to make a conscious effort to modify his conduct at this point in the story. But after Kay dropped the abortion bombshell. It probably set him back a couple of decades 😁

And for the record! I don't think it was an abortion. She only said it because she wanted to hurt him and was desperately trying come up with an excuse for Michael to let her go. And that did it!

PS: sorry about the lengthy post! Had to divide it due to a character limit.

[–] [email protected] (2042) 8 months ago

No problem about the lengthy post! Sorry for the late reply, I didn't want to have a brief reply and didn't want to reply using my phone or tablet. Now I have time!

BUT YES! I agree, I do not think Kay ever had an abortion, it was a miscarriage. She just told him it was an abortion to hurt him and sever whatever ties they had. She knew that Michael would never let her go but that would make him despise her and cut the strings from their relationship!

I also do think that Michael meant what he said when he said I learned that I have the strength to change".

But prior to that, he had a lot on his plate that Kay could never fathom, nor could he allow her to fathom. Even the killing of Fredo, I don't think Michael did it with a cold heart. He did it because when he saw him again, he realized that Fredo's bitterness would consume him and continue to betray Michael, if not now, then in the future. I truly think Michael was sincere when he told Fredo in Cuba "your still my brother!" It was Fredo who betrayed Michael, not the other way around. If Michael had not taken cared of Fredo, he and maybe his children would not have lasted.

[–] TimmyG (1) 10 months ago

1) The audience. Although I like the answers above, it could be a priest.

2) Need to watch that part again.

3)Suspected, didn't find out.

4) No, that wasn't her. She cut him off for life.

5)No, she cut him off for life. She didn't trust him.

6) Bufalino was a gangster and it showed. Hoffa was likable so she was drawn to him. Her father and Bufalino were not warm like Hoffa.

7) I think he did but he would not say anything. He was not strong enough to speak up.

8) The whole film he never talked, why would he start now? He gave up his family for this code so he had to ride it until the end. That's why he is alone at the end.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

Sorry about the delayed reply:

1) That's what that Cineranter guy said on his channel.

2) I think he hadn't burn it down, yet. He was on his way just before he was intercepted by Angelo's guy.

3) That I didn't know.

4) That's unfortunate.

5) Same response.

6) Yeah! Frank seemed distant, even with his own family. Though he obviously cared for them. Otherwise he wouldn't have given that store owner a savage beating for pushing his daughter.

For the record! I don't condone taking the law into your own hands 😁

7) I read that the FBI suspected he was somehow involved in the conspiracy. Which explains why he was the one who drove Frank and Hoffa to that aforementioned meeting. But that begs the question! Why would he want his own stepfather killed?

I don't think the movie elaborates on this.

8) That's what other user have said around here! Frank was too old school to "cooperate" with the authorities.

Also have another question that I neglected to post! During the court scene when some guy tried to whack Hoffa pointblank and the gun got conveniently jammed. Hoffa heroically ceased the opportunity to snatch the gun away and miraculously knocked the guy out with a single punch before he's apprehended (reminiscent of Dark Knight). He then takes a moment to bask in his glory as he gives a supposed impromptu speech about the difference between dealing with a assailant that's armed with a knife vs one with a gun. I don't know! It kinda seemed staged to make our good friend Hoffa look good.

Not to mention that his stepson immediately intervened and gave that would be assassin a couple of blows for good measure (they even had to pull him away). I think this scene evidences the fact that he legitimately cared about his stepfather and certainly did not want him dead.

Just saying!

[–] jpssteveshanahan (482) 9 months ago

And thank you for the feedback.