MovieChat Forums > La piel que habito (2011) Discussion > Norma was a man (did no body else see th...

Norma was a man (did no body else see the clues?)


When walking with Vicente before being seduced, Norma's frustration with high heels is made clear, as she doesn't walk comfortably in them, declares that she hates them, and the camera lingers on them on the floor. Later on Vera/Vicente says that she still doesn't like high heels.

Similarly, after the "rape" Norma's psychiatrist tells Robert that Norma tears up her dresses and won't wear clothes, much like Vicente/Vera in the future.

Finally, Norma is averse to penetration, much like Vicente/Vera with the tigerman.

This seemed to be telling us that, like Vicente/Vera, the "Norma" we see was a man originally, and possibly a copy of Robert's daughter.

Also, this would explain Norma's mental state, the reason she shies away from her supposed father, the reason she finds sex painful, and why she kills herself.

One other thought... we never actually see an open window in Norma's hospital room and we don't see her jump. Could it be that the Norma we see is a copy of the one who had jumped out of a window. (ignore this last idea if you want, it is just a thought that went through my head even if it seems less likely)

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It's an interesting theory but we also saw Norma as a happy child (before her mother jumped out of the window). It seems she was indeed female.

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The copy could have been done after the time shown in that flashback in my opinion... maybe after the original Norma threw herself out of a window.

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Quote (lordtufty): "Finally, Norma is averse to penetration, much like Vicente/Vera with the tigerman".

What a twisted thing to say. Norma was RAPED, and so was Vincente/Vera by Zeca the "Tigerman" (although I don't have any sympathy for Vincente/Vera - (s)he got what (s)he deserved). That wasn't just a "penetration", that was a R-A-P-E. So, in your mind, all the women who were raped, or attempted to be raped, and showed "aversion" to it, are not indeed women, because they didn't enjoy it? How sick.

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I wouldn't say it was intentional rape. I'd call it a serious misunderstanding, but Vicente meant no harm!

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He was too stoned to mean or not mean anything. Later, he didn't quite remember what happened, but he must have realised he did something very wrong, as he wanted to escape out of the town.

A stoned (or drunk) driver may very well mean no harm when he gets behind the weel, and when he causes a serious accident or even kills someone, it may very well be unintentional. However, it doesn't excuse him, and in a court of law, the fact of him being intoxicated would be an aggravating circumstance and by no means extenuating.

Norma in no state of mind to consent for sex either, and was taken advantage of.

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If they're both stoned and in no position to consent to sex, why is the man guiltier than the woman? Furthermore, we all know drunk driving is hazardous, but there is no reason to believe that the chick you meet at a party and start to have sex with is going to freak out in the middle of it.

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that's what I felt about the "rape". She seemed to be inviting him (saying she wanted to take off her clothes etc.) and they were both stoned... so I don't think he did anything particularly inhumane.

Anyway, back to my original topic. Do people agree/ disagree about my view that Norma was likely a man in a similar situation to Vicente?

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Well, other than slapping her senseless, he did nothing wrong!

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So I guess you wouldn't mind if your daughter was in the exact same situation.

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She wasn't taking off her clothes to have sex. She felt awkward and constrained and uncomfortable in them since she's been in a nut house pretty much the whole time.


http://www.facebook.com/ainoakeolakauilani

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She was not stoned, the meds she listed were all anti-depressants and things related to her mental illness, but Vincente didn't realize that. She was socially immature and awkward, Vincente didn't know that either and didn't think she was being literal when she said she wanted to take her clothes off because she felt claustrophobic in them and had no sexual intentions or experience.

I don't think Norma was a man, she was just a woman who had been in treatment (she told him that when Vincente told her they were alike but I don't know if he realized what she was saying) since her mom's suicide and who hadn't had a normal adolescence. This was her first time out socially as prescribed by her doctors and she did not have the experience with boys to understand what was happening and then the song that the wedding singer started was the same as the one her mom had taught her and that she was singing when her mom jumped out of the window...

Jan 25, 2011 the day it all started. Walk like an Egyptian or just protest like one!

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@MeSdEuXcEnTs
You took the words right out of my mouth!
It was easy for me at least to see that Norma was naive and still fairly childlike in her actions. I didn't construe her wanting to take her clothes off in a sexual way; she was simply being honest when she said they felt constricting on her and that she disliked them. I didn't sense an innuendo or invitation in the things she did and the way she acted, although I have no doubt a horny young man high on drugs would have little chance of seeing her behavior for what it really was (I think it's subtle even for a perfectly coherent person).

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I don't have any sympathy for Vincente/Vera - (s)he got what (s)he deserved
I would have never expected you to be the one to say that a woman can deserve to be raped.

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Vincente/Vera probably shouldn't have done it himself/herself.

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about as sick as saying Vicente got what he deserved...

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Yeah, I agree. Anytime a female flirts with a guy, gets stoned or drunk, starts throwing off clothes, willingly lets the sex-act occur for a few minutes .... then changes her mind & starts screaming, that's rape.

You know, there's some profit in there somewhere. Modern courts have already judged that a MAN can be raped by a woman, just as the other way around. So guys need to start getting a girlfriend that they don't really care about, but make them think they do. After a reasonable amount of time, convince her to "go all the way". Then 3 or 4 minutes into the deal, start screaming "rape", jump out of the car, & run to a couple of convieniently pre-placed "witness's".

Take these witness's over to the girl & tell her that you're taking her to court for rape .... but also include the fact that she can settle out of court for a few thousand $$$'s of daddy's money. That'll save her the embarrassment & potential criminal charges of a rape sentence.

See, that "It was rape because she said it was" crap can cut both ways.

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[deleted]

Modern courts have already judged that a MAN can be raped by a woman, just as the other way around


According to newest happenings, apparently not. I'm of course talking about the 30-something woman raping an 11-year-old and getting impregnated by him. AND, she might not face consequences since the NZ law doesn't recognize woman-man rape. Although an 11-year-old is DEFINITELY a child, and I'm not very well educated on the New Zealandese legislation on that.

I think saying Vincent raped Norma is patronizing to women. He had NO way of knowing about her mental health, I can clearly see why he got confused. Where things went to hell was the slap. And Vincent definitely did NOT deserve what he got!!


#3seasonsandathankyou

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Vincente/Vera - (s)he got what (s)he deserved)
What a heartless thing to write. I think having your gender taken away from you without your consent is far worse and beyong eye for an eye.
Fatima had a fetish for a wiggle in her scoot

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Wow you are so way off it's ridiculous. When exactly was Norma raped? Vincente was very kind to her all the way, she looked interested by him and he was not violent by any means... To say he derserved what he got is completly unfair and retard, if you ask me. The poor kid got trapped by a psychotic young woman who went completly nuts when she heard her mother song in the woods.

Watch the movie again please. And please don't think I wanna protect rapists, this is so obvioud that Vincente is a victim in this movie, a victim of the lack of communication between Norma and her father. Roberto wouldve never took revenge on Vincente would he have know the full story.

You are the sick one. Sorry if you were raped, cause it's the only reason why you can think the way you do. Geez...

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Sorry if you were raped,


In the future, please don't feel the need to apologize to someone who says such things. The poster is whacked on this point.

cause it's the only reason why you can think the way you do.


It's nice of you to try to be understanding, but I personally do not think that being raped would be an excuse for such a position. I say this as a woman who was raped (and kidnapped -- the guy got 26 years). If anything, being raped makes me sensitive to the misuse of the word. It takes some kind of personality flaw to say what the poster said -- being raped wouldn't cause that flaw (although it might explain the direction the flaw took).


Saulisa

Logic is our best defense against The Experts.

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Norma was RAPED


You call that a rape? Rape? Statements like this are an insult to women who have actually been through a rape.

Norma and Vincente were two kids who miscommunicated. Vincente assumed Norma's psych meds were just like the ones he used to get high. Like a typical high teenager, he starts kissing her and she doesn't object. In fact, she never gives him the slightest reason to think she's not willing until the moment he begins climaxing. How in the world is that a rape?

It's very sad for Norma, but exactly how was Vincente supposed to know she was a mental patient who lacked the skills to express herself and her desires?

(although I don't have any sympathy for Vincente/Vera - (s)he got what (s)he deserved).


Seriously? Let's say it was a rape. You think that a fitting punishment for a rape of this kind (no torture, no threats) is to be mutilated and held in solitary confinement and have your sex changed? Wow. Do you have any sense of proportion at all?


Saulisa

Logic is our best defense against The Experts.

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Norma was never a male and I don't think it was really implied.

Alot of people I've talked to who saw this seemed to miss that the running theme of "mirroring" in this film.

Examples:


* Norma's rape is mirrored by Vera's rape.
* Norma's following disturbed behavior of tearing her clothes is mirrored by Vera's similar behavior (Although she doesn't realise this) following the end of her transition.
* Norma finds it hard to walk in heels (as you mentioned) and mirrored is Vera's frustration with these as well.
* Norma's rape is painful for her, mirrored by Vera's first time also being painful.
* Vera's appearance mirrors the appearance of Robert's deceased wife Gal.
* Gal commits suicide by jumping from a window - mirrored by Norma later on in the film (off camera).
* Tiger man (name escapes me at the moment) is shot by the woman who gave birth to him...you could say this is mirrored by Vera shooting Robert, as Robert essentially was her 'maker' in a sense.
* Robert 'burns' Vera several times (as part of her treatment) which mirrors the fact that Gal, Robert's wife, was burned.




There are alot of other parallels but those were the main ones I noticed. None of it seems to point to Norma's sex, but rather that most of the significant events in the movie are to repeated/reflected with the slight reverse. I don't know, I guess it's up to interpretation but I did definitely not get "Norma was a man" out of any of this movie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We've become a race of peeping toms.

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I thought that the mirroring implied that Norma was part of the same project... i.e. a man with a sex change. If it wasn't so, then why would the mirroring be there? There is no other reason.

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I don't recall the latter being so much a project but more a product of circumstance.

Who invited E.T. -?

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Robert 'burns' Vera several times (as part of her treatment) which mirrors the fact that Gal, Robert's wife, was burned.
There is a direct relationship there: after seeing his wife suffer from severe burns Robert was trying to make the skin which is resistant to burns, so that nobody else would have to go through that. He used Vincent as test subject to make sure that it actually worked.

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I didn't say anything about the new burn-prooof skin. That was probably a new experiment which he hadn't done on his daughter.

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* Norma's rape is mirrored by Vera's rape.


This sent me on a whole new tangent of theory-making about it.

At the moment that he found Vera being raped, he paused, thought to kill her (as well as the tiger, presumably) and then decided not to and realised his "being in love with her".

There is a clear mirror with Norma. I think he raped Norma at some point and that that is why, in the hospital, the doctor said that Norma was confusing Robert as the rapist. They all, and we all, assume that's because she woke from her unconsciousness to see him but I think her dalliance with Vincente reminded her of the original rape of her father.

Robert wanted to make good in that moment with BOTH Norma and Vera.


Maybe he raped Norma because he was still angry about her mother cheating on him.

So many clues to conjure this, but it's all just play... a theory.


I also remember Robert's mother saying in the kitchen, near the end, that he is foolish and childish to always believe the promises of women.

I've probably not explained very well but I had a mini epiphany and then was just trying to explain it out.

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That's an interesting theory, but the reason I don't think that's the case is the following:

You say that the Norma who was raped (or felt like she was being raped) might have been a copy of the real Norma, already dead. But later on we see her in the mental institution, when she can't stand the presence of her father, because she's identified him as her 'rapist' in her confusion. Later on in the same institution the father is told about his daughter's suicide (out of the window). After she's been in the intritution because of what happened at the party.

So in order for the grown-up Norma to be a copy, that would mean that both the real Norma and the copy Norma would have at some point killed themselves jumping out of a window.

I think it would make more sense if it's the real Norma all along and we are told the story of why she killed herself. I see the similarities of what Norma and Vincent were going through, but it could be because they're both very confused (Norma because of her condition and Vincert because of his lost identity) or a sick joke of fate: Vincent gets to experience in some way the things that Norma experiences as a result of his actions.

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Wouldn't it be possible that Banderas hid the original Norma's death, which could have had nothing to do with falling out of a window. The story everyone else knows is that Norma (in this case v2) threw herself out of the window. He/she could have done it to spite Banderas' character, as she knew how his wife died.

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I think you saw a completely different film, or you're creating a completely new subplot.

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Fascinating! I never thought of it until I read your post. It's very possible that the subplot you presented is exactly what happened.

The whole world is a very narrow bridge. The key is to be fearless. R' Nachman of Breslov

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What? No.
I believe Norma was born a female and we see her aged around 12/13 playing with dolls before the traumatising incident that lands her in a mental institution, unless she had a sex change before 12/13, which isn't common

I feel as though you're trying to turn us into decorated f£ck dolls for the pleasure of men.

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Almodovar loves these mirrorings but they're not meant to be taken literally. Norma was born female. On the book and on the film.

Almodovar even added mirrorings with some of his past films.
- Car/motorbike fighting = "Women on the verge of a nervous breakdown".
- Woman being discovered under the bed = "Volver" (copied frame by frame)
- And the clearest of all: On "Kika", Paul Bazo, escaped from prison in a disguise, ties up to a chair to his sister (domestic worker) and then rapes her sister's boss.

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This is just so typical of Almodovar brilliance, throwing little things like this in his movie to make you wonder lol. I've seen it before. The man is truly a genius.

Ziggy Mongo

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I don't believe she was a man. I believe it was the death of her mother that sent her over the edge. Moreover, I don't view her rape as an aversion to penetration. I imagine when someone forcibly jams their sexual organs inside of yours it is going to hurt. With that said I believe that Robert's aim was to punish Vicente, initially. Then he wanted to replicate Norma AND his wife in some form or fashion...
Anyway, I just saw this movie for the first time last night and I am STILL thinking about it.

Not I said the cat...

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[deleted]

IMDB Vits writes: "Your theory (lordtuffty's) can't be right, because then it would loose the point of the scene. The way she acted was a result of her childhood traumas. If she was some guy turned woman, why would she scream during the sex? Do you think that's when she remembered who she was, like it happened with VERA? Because VERA never actually forgot who she was. She got used her situation and it slipped from her mind from time to time. But she never thought she was born a woman, so why would the guy turned NORMA?"

Btw: Very Interesting theory by lordtufty.

I think one should look up the drugs Norma told Vincente she was taking:
TRANKIMAZIN used to treat panic disorder and anxiety disorder.
CIPRALEX 20 Treats severe depression and generalized anxiety disorder (GAD)
DEPRAX 100 MG Broad-spectrum antidepressant
LYRICA Treats nerve and muscle pain caused by diabetes, shingles, fibromyalgia, or a spinal cord injury.
ROHIPNOL (“but not ANYMORE,” says Norma)
Commonly known as "roofy" it's a "date rape drug" interfering with memory, causing amnesia, forgetfullness.

Since Norma says she does not take Rohypnol anymore - she CAN remember and does, doesn't she? when the song is sung....but what is it she “remembers?”

I cannot understand why her mother's suicide would necessitate the vast array of drugs she was taking. It wasn’t her mother’s “accident” that ‘traumatized’ Norma since we first see Norma playing outside and singing. A happy child. Totally unconcerned about the burned “mother”/monster in the bedroom above.

And Why Lyrica? Why Roofies? Why THREE anti-depressants? Why Lyrica???
ROOFIES????

A transplant of "skin" might necessitate Lyrica. A transplant of skin might cause nerve and muscle pain, might it not? And a transplant of skin would make her skin super sensitive to clothes and hence the clothes aversion.

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The one problem I see with your theory is Norma's song. She was singing that little tune when her mother committed suicide, so it got stuck and became part of her trauma. Then at the party under the tree she heard that song again and freaked. If that girl was another of Robert's projects, she wouldn't have reacted to that song the way she did.

__________
Last movie watched: Dead of Night (5/10)

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LYRICA is also an approved treatment for GAD and in fact began to be used in lieu of lorazepam. It is so licensed in most of Europe. It was also found to be useful for the type of pain caused by fibromyalgia and so licensed in the USA. I also don't believe Norma's character is meant to imply that she has been using ALL of those medications together, but rather that she's been chemically in treatment for a long time. Most of you also seem to have missed that she tells Vicente that she's also in psychiatric treatment I forget what she called it - something like psycho-analysis visits) and asks him if he's in such "treatment" too, because she misunderstands his "recreational" use of drugs. She's naive in that sense and illegal drug use to her never comes to mind.

BTW people, she didn't freak out and yells for him to stop because of the sex, she freaks out because of the song (a song she associates with her horrendously burned mother splattering herself in the garden in front of her). There is the implication that since her father kept the mother locked up in a room, while attempting to heal her, without mirrors, it's doubtful anyone else in the family would actually SEE her. It would be nearly impossibly to keep a child from noticing and reacting to mom looking that way! I think the extra trauma (as if seeing you mom commit such a carnage-resulting suicide wasn't enough for most people) of seeing her mom post-burn added to the hurt & trauma(and having such a crazy, weird dad didn't help).

The Dr at the clinic (shall we call it in old-style, a sanitorium?) tells Robert (her father) that she's reacting "to him as her rapist" because that's what Robert has told the clinic, that she was raped, because that's what he has assumed from what the found. He was never able to ask Norma what really happened. That's why we are shown both versions of events. We are shown Robert's memory of it - he assumes rape. We are shown Vicente's memory of it, where Norma freaks out and he doesn't know why and he's high. We see the actual event as it happened, and unless no one was paying attention while watching, you are meant to recognize the song and that hearing it re-traumatizes Norma, in fact, scares her into a frenzy. Imagine if only that had happened in the dance hall during the reception in front of everyone instead?

When the Dr tells the father they can't make her wear regular clothes because she tears it off, you are meant to recall (was anyone paying attention to the dialogue, is it a language problem/reading captions problem?) that Norma throws off her shoes AFTER her heel breaks and then her sweater and tells him she can barely stand wearing any clothes let alone high heels, that she'd just as soon walk around naked if she could! Whether she (her character) is actually a sufferer of dermatographism (look it up, I'm not your medical encyclopedia) and it's a side-affect of some of her meds, there really are people like that IRL (I know some and they've been diagnosed by different dermatologist, there's even an artist who's gotten some notoriety for it). So it wasn't Norman "being really a man." It was just a character feature. There should be no confusion as to who Norma is and what's wrong with her and that it wasn't the sex act that freaked her out and she wasn't raped, it was the song and the memory that freaked her. Yes, I'm sure the anti-anxiety drugs together with all the treatment was meant to help her work through and entirely forget her trauma.

BTW some people are confused about the relationship between Marilia, Zeca and Robert. Again, do people not pay attention to everything characters say, do you get bored, do you not realize that every word of dialogue has already been pared down and carefully chosen to the essentials. Movies are expensive, every minute of movie is meant to be there, there really can't be any filler, throwaway with little to no impact. Everything you see and hear was meant to be that way. These aren't Ed Wood films! Marilia clearly explains the entire backgrounds histories for each to Vera after the fiasco with Zeca. Just to review for those who didn't pay attention: Marilia was a maid in a home where she has served since childhood. Then she had a son, Zeca by another servant in the house who quickly took off once she told him she was pregnant. Zeca didn't grow up in that house, he was far from her (she kept her job and couldn't raise him in her boss' house and she wasn't married either) and then she had an affair with her boos and had another son, Robert (the boss and his infertile wife were childless and stole Robert claiming him as THEIR own son, never allowing him to know Marilia was his real mother). That's right, he thought she was just the housekeeper. She referred to both the fathers of her sons as "crazy" men. She even commented that both her sons were crazy too and that she believed she had "insanity in her womb" (the film translated it as entrails but in Spanish it meant womb) because their fathers were crazy.

Oh and "angelexposed" it was that mentioned in the "mirrored" parts that Marilia
kills her son Zeca, wrong! Zeca (as you call him Tigerman) was not "killed by the woman who gave birth to him." Marilia even points out to Vera that the 2 brothers had been "playing at killing each other" since they were kids!

What movie did you all watch? Robert finds Marilia gagged & tied up to a chair in front of the closed circuit TV watching Zeca rape Vera. Robert runs up to her room and shoots Zeca dead, after thinking it through being very careful not to accidentally shoot Vera, too. It it then that she realizes that Robert has (despite his horrific revenge on him, Vicente) somewhat fallen for her, Vera. She doesn't know why yet, until the next scene where Marilia retells the entire history of the family to her. Marilia felt compelled to do this after feeling she needed to explain to Vera why her son Zeca thought he "recognized" her.

Major clue here: actually pay attention to the details (every one, visual, verbal) that the moviemakers put it the movie, there shouldn't be any throwaway scenery or dialogue. If you miss any, especially in a detail-rich film like this one, you are bound to be confused and even reach the wrong conclusions. After reading most of this comment board I have to wonder what movie some people actually watched! And I hope it's just a problem with people's attention span and language and reading skills.

Oh and one more thing, it's a movie - not a documentary. Much poetic license has been taken with reality. It's a horror/Sci-Fi film, by no means is anyone to believe that the results achieved in this movie are realistic or even possible (at the very least at this time in history). When entering a cinema, you are expected to suspend your disbelief, it's all illusion, trickery and story-telling, with a message, often told through metaphor and allegory, not literally. It's art and license of art. Are you people as harsh and critical of Bond/Lord of the Rings/Star Wars films? I would think not.





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