Communist Bullsh*t - Zeitgeist (2007) Discussion

[–] xPhenomenusx 15 years ago

How so? Way to explain your opinion.

Zeitgeist - 8/10
Scott Pilgrim Vs the World - 9/10

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[–] twentymooseman 15 years ago

I wouldn't really call it propaganda but I do agree that it is neo communist bullsh*t.

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[–] kirix13 14 years ago

Just throwing out random labels isn't really productive and is really just a shortcut to thinking. While it is similar to Communism to a certain extent, the difference is that nations under Communism still employed the use of the monetary system, which the Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project want to do away with because it is a fundamental barrier to many things, which you can learn about through Zeitgeist Addendum.

If you want to continue defending the establishment and are happy with the way things are in regards to the state of society, feel free to roll over and go back to sleep.

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[–] ZAROVE 14 years ago

Actually in Communism you first build a Socialist State that still use smoney till the state Gradually dissapears, and at that point a True Democracy emerges and money is no longer issued. It'd be like Star Trek.

The Venus Projet woudl need such an "Interrim step" itself.

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[–] cifra2 14 years ago

lol, you're funny. Really.

Communism is way better than capitalism, by the way. Jesus was communist, just read the Bible. He lived in common with his disciples, didn't believe in individual possesions and so on. It's beyond laughable for someone to call him/herself capitalist and christian. They're 100% not-compatible.

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[–] ZAROVE 14 years ago

We were discussing Marxist Communism, which is generlaly called "Communism", but if you want to brign up Jesus, he wans't a Communist in any wya, even in the "Share all possessions" way.

Jesus is described as the Kign of Kings, and the New Testament clealry shows a FUnctional Heirarchy including the Apostles. One cannot have a Monarhcy and a COmmunist society.

Most people base the idea that the Early Churhc was Communistic (Literal, classical definition) on Acts Chapter 2, which is beow Excerpted.

44. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

However, if you read more Carefully, you will notice that this was enutrley chosen. They frely gave, no oen made them, and it was not a prerequisit to belogn to the Church.

Worse, peopel still owned property. There is a Fampus story of Anninias and Saphira, n which they sold some land they owned, and gave some of the money to the Church. They gave only part and retaiend part for themselves, and were killed. Many say this is evidence, but it snot, for Peter told them that they didnt even have to sell their land, or give them any of the money. It was theirs to do with as they pleased. They were striken for lying, claimign to have given all, but only giving part.

But the story illustrates a point, they could have kept it all, and no shame woudl have befallen them. They coudl ahve doen as hey did, but not lie abotu it, and no one woudl have concerned themslves.

Likewise, Paul discusses in his lettershow he was a Tentmaker to support himself, and asks every man to tend his own house.

WHile Jesus wa snot a Capitalist, and in fact coudlnt have been as he lived well before the Industrial Revolution, he wa snot a Communist.

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[–] VictorianSquid 14 years ago

Anyone who 'buys' into this movie is a total vulva.It's copyright free and cost approx $7000 to make FFS.
You'd pay more than that for a 20 second advert on the shagging radio.

Whether you agree with any of it or not.It's entertaining for the budget and anyone who says give it a '2' or a '3' is clearly half a dozen chromosomes short of a Rooney.

SEVEN GRAND and infinitely better than Waterworld, Transformers *yawn* etc.

People just don't like being outside their comfort zone so they pay Hollywood vast amounts of hard earned cash to make everything soft and fluffy.Then they have the audacity to come onto imdb and start a 'worst movie ever' thread about said POS movie. Bless 'em (with an aluminium bat)

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[–] kurgan-10 14 years ago

It may be out there "free" but it's also being sold. He sells the movie, t-shirts and other merchandise. The Zeitgeist Movement solicits donations, as does the "Venus Project" which sells various media and merchandise at a clear profit in order to use the money to fund their "utopian" message and vision.

If you think he makes no money and all of this is pure loss out of his own pocket, think again.

He may not be a millionaire, but he's not becoming poorer for spreading his message either.

People get confused because the term "Communism" is used as a blanket term to refer to the various economic and political systems that have been instituted over the course of the 20th century (in places like Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, etc). In Marxist thinking (where the term originates), "Communism" is the condition of a classless society where everyone receives according to their need and works according to their ability (for the good of all, not for profit). In this utopian idea nobody exploits anybody else, the workers control the means of production (but there's no private property), and everyone is free. The state prior to this is a "socialism" which is the dictatorship of the proletariat. The "workers" take over the government and begin a centrally planned economy. This usually results in a form of totalitarian state. Because of the nature of power, it never proceeds from the "socialist" state to the "communism" goal. Those in power don't want to give up their power and so simply stamp out all freedom and resistance (until they are overthrown or run out of money and collapse).

The rhetoric of Jesus is more like monarchy, which comes from the Jewish ideal of having a righteous man chosen by God to rule the people alongside a righteous high priest (and in Messianic expectations sometimes these were thought of as the same person), and finally in the future time for God Himself to be the true and eternal King acknowledged by all. Christianity acknowledges Christ as both King and God (fully human and also fully divine). So it is in that sense a theological monarchy, not "Communist."

Some have tried to argue that Christianity was "communist" in the best sense of the word, minus the anti-theism of Marx and his successors and compatriots. But I think most of the evidence goes against that. Just because a community or two shared things in common, that doesn't make them "Communist." Things like welfare and charity can exist in non-Communist states and philosophies.

http://www.historyversusthedavincicode.com/
History vs. the Da Vinci Code

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

$5 to cover material & shipping costs hardly constitutes a profit.

Otherwise, can you provide evidence to your claim the author is making money on this?

Or a link to where The Zeitgeist Movement is soliciting donations? I'll wait here while you find it.

Can you provide any evidence to support your contention the movement supports utopia?

(the last one is a trick question: the movement's position is clear on Utopia if you took 2 minutes to research it... there is no such thing as Utopia; human beings constantly evolve... something you might try in your thinking)

I'll wait here while you backtrack your claims based on no factual evidence...

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

$5 to cover material & shipping costs hardly constitutes a profit.
Otherwise, can you provide evidence to your claim the author is making money on this?

Happy to do this:

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/cost/

And that's just the most basic level. In the past they've sold other merchandise, not just DVDs of the Zeitgeist "documentaries." The Venus Project, which they've been supporting, relies upon donations and sales of merchandise.

Or a link to where The Zeitgeist Movement is soliciting donations? I'll wait here while you find it.

You wrote this on Sept 19 and I'm responding on Sept 26, 2011. A cursory visit to their site doesn't reveal any "donation" button or link as they had in the past, and archived versions of the site are unavailable from Archive.org's wayback machine. Other portions of the site are password protected. Interesting.

In the past at least, they've solicited people to not just spread the "message" (movies) around, but to join the Venus Project and donate to it.

And please don't try to dismiss what I've presented by saying that Peter Joseph and his films are "not the movement."

Can you provide any evidence to support your contention the movement supports utopia?

By its very definition, the Venus Project is such a movement (towards a presumed "utopia"). Any group that claims to have a plan to transform human society for the better fits this definition.

(the last one is a trick question: the movement's position is clear on Utopia if you took 2 minutes to research it... there is no such thing as Utopia; human beings constantly evolve... something you might try in your thinking)

Evolution is a biological process that takes many, many generations in populations. But modern people use the word all the time to refer to simply changing your mind to agree with me (and that makes you "better" for doing so), I understand.

I'll wait here while you backtrack your claims based on no factual evidence...

No need, others have done it for me. If TZM has lost steam lately and its members have backtracked from their earlier extreme positions, that just makes my job easier.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

To recap your reply:

You have no evidence and provide no facts. One by one:

re: Profit
You're saying someone somewhere is selling blank DVDs for $0.28 and so obviously the other $4.72 is ALL PROFIT!!! OMG!

Of course, neither you nor that hate-filled website you link to factor in the equipment costs, the energy costs, the remaining material costs (envelope? dvd label? etc.), etc.

Your reasoning is so simplistic, it's hard to take seriously (sorry!)

re: Donations
Surprise surprise.... So you don't have any evidence of this except your claim that "sometime in the past".

Well sorry guy, this doesn't hold water either. Show evidence or STFU.

re: Utopia
Oxford's dictionary says this:
Utopia noun
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

So your definition of what Utopia is ("Any group that claims to have a plan to transform human society for the better") is different from the dictionary and pretty much everyone else...

Wow! No wonder you're so against these ideas, you think positive change is impossible! Boy, those propagandists sure have you under their thumb! Sincerely hope you someday learn how to break out of your cage.

For the record, neither The Zeitgeist Movement nor The Venus Project advocate anything close to Utopia; specifically due to the clearly stated and well understood concept that Utopia cannot exist because we're constantly evolving, and change for the better over time is the heart of both of these movements. There simply is no such thing as Utopia.

Even 4 minutes of review of this topic would reveal the above to be factual. Yet you stick to your claim that these are Utopian ideas?

Even worse, you claim these organizations changed their views from the past without a trace (magically?) so it justifies your still completely unsupported claims!?

Amazing. What color is the sky for you? Over here it is (still) blue.

(just so you know, it's ok to admit defeat in an argument, it builds character... go ahead and try it here, embrace the opportunity to grow as a person! i know you won't because you're probably too thick-headed, but thought you should at least know the opportunity exists!)

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

To recap your reply:

You have no evidence and provide no facts. One by one:

re: Profit
You're saying someone somewhere is selling blank DVDs for $0.28 and so obviously the other $4.72 is ALL PROFIT!!! OMG!

Not just "somewhere," the big stores, and popular web based sellers, even cheaper.

I highly doubt he's paying $1 per disc. So let's see, by your own admission then, if he sells just 100 discs, that's $472 profit. 1000, and that's $4,720. 10,000, $47,200, etc. Beginning to see why the argument holds water?

If he sold one or two DVD's, maybe you'd have a point, but clearly he is making a profit and he has sold enough to make a handy return, considering that most of the movie is cribbed from one popular source, uses stock footage and so most of the work is just recording himself talking and some text on the screen.

Of course, neither you nor that hate-filled website you link to factor in the equipment costs, the energy costs, the remaining material costs (envelope? dvd label? etc.), etc.

How is it "hate filled"? No more "hate filled" than the pro-Zeitgeist sites out there, that wish you to believe every institution is trying to turn you into a slave or kill you.

The "remaining materials" add a trivial amount of cost, considering that they, like DVD's can be bought in bulk very cheaply (or even obtained for free in some cases).

What's clear is that he's NOT doing it at a loss, or even "at cost," he's making a profit on each sale. Multiply that by many times, for generous estimates, and you've got a tidy sum, even before you factor in other merch he sells and any pure donations he might get, potential ad revenue, and so forth.

Your reasoning is so simplistic, it's hard to take seriously (sorry!)

It's better supported than the contention that "Peter Joseph" is making no money from the films or the movement, that he's doing this purely to spread ideas. You might also ask why he's still selling it, even though he should know by now that it's been debunked (see "the movies aren't the movement" excuse).

re: Donations
Surprise surprise.... So you don't have any evidence of this except your claim that "sometime in the past".

Well sorry guy, this doesn't hold water either. Show evidence or STFU.

When did you join the movement?

re: Utopia
Oxford's dictionary says this:
Utopia noun
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

So your definition of what Utopia is ("Any group that claims to have a plan to transform human society for the better") is different from the dictionary and pretty much everyone else...

I'll see your definition and raise you one:

U·to·pi·an
   [yoo-toh-pee-uhn] adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or resembling Utopia.

2. ( usually lowercase ) founded upon or involving idealized perfection.

3. ( usually lowercase ) given to impractical or unrealistic schemes of such perfection.

noun

4. an inhabitant of Utopia.

5.( usually lowercase ) an ardent but impractical political or social reformer; visionary; idealist.

Dictionary.com ("utopian")

The term "utopian societies" is well known in anthropology. Many examples of failed utopias exist in history from the Shakers to the Oneida community, to the dreams of a classless society of the Marxists.

In common usage it refers to what I said, and it's called "utopia" because it is an unrealistic plan in the first place. They imagine a "better world" and go about seeking to make that come true, no matter how impossible it might be. Call that idealism or delusion, it's your call. Look at "The Venus Project" and tell me that's not utopian.

Wow! No wonder you're so against these ideas, you think positive change is impossible!

No, I think that the proposed goals and means of the Venus Project supporters are impractical, even counter-productive to human society (the site I linked covered that stuff too, btw, but if you need more, try here http://www.pointbite.com/2008/10/08/zeitgeist-addendum-and-the-venus-p roject-hoax/, and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cBdbw3hsUE, and here http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/noam-chomsky-on-zeitgeist- venus-project/ ).

I condemn the promotion of such goals through the use of lying propaganda, like the Zeitgeist films promote. I also resent the presumption that if I am opposed to their methods or the Venus Project itself, I'm somehow opposed to positive social reform. That does not follow.

Boy, those propagandists sure have you under their thumb! Sincerely hope you someday learn how to break out of your cage.

Projection. It's the Zeitgeist followers who put themselves in the proverbial cage, tying themselves to this cult-like movement which preys on your fears and exploits your wishful desires.

For the record, neither The Zeitgeist Movement nor The Venus Project advocate anything close to Utopia; specifically due to the clearly stated and well understood concept that Utopia cannot exist because we're constantly evolving, and change for the better over time is the heart of both of these movements. There simply is no such thing as Utopia.

Their end-goal is a utopian vision, nonetheless.

Even 4 minutes of review of this topic would reveal the above to be factual. Yet you stick to your claim that these are Utopian ideas?

Indeed they are. Read the critique of the Venus Project via the Zeitgeist movement on the pages I linked above.

Even worse, you claim these organizations changed their views from the past without a trace (magically?) so it justifies your still completely unsupported claims!?

On the contrary, there are things called web archives, and old versions of videos. It's absolute fact that multiple editions of the Zeitgeist movies have been released with details changed, for example. Peter Joseph says things that he didn't say in the past. It's just willful ignorance to say otherwise.

(just so you know, it's ok to admit defeat in an argument, it builds character... go ahead and try it here, embrace the opportunity to grow as a person! i know you won't because you're probably too thick-headed, but thought you should at least know the opportunity exists!)

How about this, I'll do that when you prove me wrong, instead of simply contradicting what I said and implying I'm a sheep like all true believers of the conspiracy theorist bent seem to do.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

Again, you're projecting here... sigh. I don't have the interest to discuss further when you obviously don't care about this subject enough to do even basic honest research.

And yes, I've been a member since its inception, your vague allusion to some "money motive" is COMPLETELY without base in any fact. I guess you prefer fiction to reality?

Let it be said AGAIN that this Movement doesn't promote advocate any concept of Utopia; it understands that Utopia doesn't exist, there is no concept of "perfection". 5 minutes of research would reveal this to anyone open to reality.

So AGAIN, you're applying your set-in-stone definitions to a subject you obviously haven't done a modicum of research on.

You must just see the words "sharing" and "compassion" and think "COMMUNIST!!! RED ALERT OMG! The sky is falling!!" haha, it would be funny if it weren't about something so important as evolving our species.

Please before you espouse your views on a topic, try to research it without your obvious bias.

It is challenging yes, but you and anyone you come in contact with will be better for it.

Thanks for trying anyway!

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

And yes, I've been a member since its inception,

And you're that ignorant of how the group you're in functions? Or the behavior of its "founding member" (since you probably deny that "Peter Joseph" is actually your leader). I guess it's no wonder you're still a member.

your vague allusion to some "money motive" is COMPLETELY without base in any fact. I guess you prefer fiction to reality?

It's not "vague" at all. I put it in completely concrete terms that you haven't argued. Apparently you were unable to do anything more than respond with an "OMG!" essentially admitting you couldn't deal with the clear facts I presented.

Let it be said AGAIN that this Movement doesn't promote advocate any concept of Utopia; it understands that Utopia doesn't exist, there is no concept of "perfection". 5 minutes of research would reveal this to anyone open to reality.

Fine then, if I think Zeitgeist is WRONG and oppose the Venus Project as BS, what's your opinion? You will say that I'm a hindrance to the progress of humanity, and a "sheep." Right?

So AGAIN, you're applying your set-in-stone definitions to a subject you obviously haven't done a modicum of research on.

C'mon, you were the one who asserted I wasn't following the dictionary definition of a word (you just forgot to look up the related term which actually applies in this case). You were also the one quibbling with what I said.

You must just see the words "sharing" and "compassion" and think "COMMUNIST!!!

Nope. On the other hand, which philosophical-economic system is known for promising a classless society while seeking the abolition of religion and private property?

The Venus Project is NOT the only hope for humanity. In fact, it won't work, so it's NOT in any way, the future.

RED ALERT OMG! The sky is falling!!"

Funny, that's what Peter Joseph's movies have been saying. More classic projection. I'm not the one saying if you don't embrace my utopian movement, you're holding back human progress and/or the world will go to hell.

haha, it would be funny if it weren't about something so important as evolving our species.

This is nothing to do with "evolution." Do you even know what evolution is? It's not about switching to a resource based economy or building bubble cities with robots.

Please before you espouse your views on a topic, try to research it without your obvious bias.

Sorry, I'm biased in favor of theories that are logically sound and evidence based arguments. I'm naturally skeptical of conspiracy theories and the promises of people who have already lied to me. Oddly enough, this is an area where TZM folks are the most hypocritical.

It is challenging yes, but you and anyone you come in contact with will be better for it.

Prove it. How are we going to be better off in a resource based economy? How are people going to live better (than now) without government and the profit motive? How are you going to implement a system upon those who don't want it? B force? (and if so, how is that better than either our current system or something else like fascism or communism?)

No mass enlightenment of humanity is coming from space in the year 2012. So I guess it's back to the drawing board for TVP and TZM.

Thanks for trying anyway!

Weak sauce.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

Well you failed the exercise again... Read my 1st sentence again; then again if need be.

You use buzz words like "conspiracy" "communist" "utopian" against ANY call to evolving our values; this simplistic thinking is outside the realm of rational, progressive discourse. How then you can expect me to be drawn into a discussion with you, is beyond my understanding.

Suffice to say, valid, reasoned, and scientifically backed answers to your questions & confusions are out there.

Myself, am not interested in battling your emotional investment in the propaganda programming you've received, especially when you show such obvious laziness to do even a small amount of research before drawing (false) conclusions.

weak sauce

Yes, I agree, you offer weak sauce. Glad to see you starting to come around! :)

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

Okay, here's what you say I'm missing:

Again, you're projecting here... sigh. I don't have the interest to discuss further when you obviously don't care about this subject enough to do even basic honest research.

You say you don't care, but you keep responding. The ignore button is right there if you can't handle it.

I HAVE done basic research. What about my research was DIShonest? You called the site I linked "hate filled."

You never said why. You just act like I've insulted your religion (if so, my apologies, but you shouldn't have brought it up I guess?).

I'm not sure how *I* am projecting here. Care to explain?

You use buzz words like "conspiracy"

It's not a "buzz word." TZM is based on the films of Peter Joseph, which ARE, like it or not, conspiracy theories.

TVP IS a utopian movement, like it or not. And I've already linked sites explaining why it won't work, why it's naive at best, and destructive at worst (if it ever came true, which it won't).

"utopian" against ANY call to evolving our values;

WRONG! Stop saying that. I am not against social reform or change for the better.

I'm against stupid projects that 1) won't work 2) potentially do more harm than good 3) are based on fear-mongering and disinformation.

I'm also against the cult-like mentality of far too many supporters of these projects.

this simplistic thinking is outside the realm of rational, progressive discourse.

Baloney. Because I'm not a member of TZM, my opinions don't count, right? I'm against "evolving humanity" or some similar nonsense. Give me a break.

How then you can expect me to be drawn into a discussion with you, is beyond my understanding.

Then be the bigger man (or woman) and walk away. Nobody is forcing you to read and respond to my posts. You challenged me and insinuating that I was lying. I backed up what I said. You further implied that I was dishonest and against progress. As I pointed out, that's the typical response of TZM/TVP cultists. Sadly, I wasn't far off in my suspicions.

Listen, you can believe in hope and change and actively work for a better world WITHOUT giving your time, talent and treasure to nincompoops and kooks like Peter Joseph Merola and Jacque Fresco.

Suffice to say, valid, reasoned, and scientifically backed answers to your questions & confusions are out there.

I sense a bluff. Why not bring them forward? All the research I've done so far suggests a naive utopian dream at best, and a cynical scheme to profit off of gullible conspiracy believers at worst.

Myself, am not interested in battling your emotional investment in the propaganda programming you've received,

Translation: You don't agree with TZM/TVP, you're a sheep! Baaa!

Dude, it won't work. You've got to show that what I've been saying isn't true. Prove that these theories are evidence based and will work. I'm the skeptic here. You bear the burden of proof. You don't get off just saying I'm a zombie of the system so I wouldn't understand the enlightenment you're bringing.

WHY are you even a member of this group? You don't seem to have any interest in defending your own beliefs, just insulting naysayers. Why is that?

especially when you show such obvious laziness to do even a small amount of research before drawing (false) conclusions.

Laziness? I put actual effort in refuting you when you challenged me. You on the other hand did nothing but hand-wave away my evidence and attack me. You don't get off calling me "lazy."

TZM/TVP is BS. You've been had! My advice? Give your money to a worthwhile charity. That'd accomplish a lot more good than stumping for these folks.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] divisionbyzero85 13 years ago

Looks like somebody needs to learn the difference between profit and revenue. To give you credit though, you probably do. I just forget how much you like your smear campaigns.

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[–] BobLennon123 14 years ago

I was just expecting someone to call "communist" seems a lot of Americans do that.

"Nobody is free, even the birds are chained to the sky" - Bob Dylan

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[–] ZAROVE 14 years ago

Americans ar enot along in this statement. The basic principles of thre Venus Project do seem to be obviosuly rooted in the same principles as Communism.

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

Can you show any evidence to support your claim?

Or do you simplistically believe that any structure that improves the lives of people is communist?

If so, your definition of communism, differs with the rest of the world. Sorry to be the one to tell you this! (something people closer to you really should do if they had any compassion).

To help you answer my question, let's start with this; Oxford's dictionary definition:

Communism noun
A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. See also Marxism.

Here are some easy to digest and very obvious questions to further help you:
Which part of The Venus Project advocates class war?

Which part of The Venus Project supports public property?

Which part of The Venus Project supports money and payment?

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[–] Chiffmonkey 14 years ago

The real propaganda is the anti-communist paranoia fed to americans.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] casemon 13 years ago

Because communism is a failed structure for society based on differential advantage, just like Capitalism, only Capitalism doesn't know when it is dying (this is common to most failing ideologies really).

Nothing in what this movie advocates or supports is Communistic and that is provable fact (see other msgs in this thread, or the source material for the movie)

What The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project does support is human compassion without exceptions.

And of course, universal compassion is something that communist & capitalist propagandists want you to think is "a bad thing"... how else are they going to keep you divided and enslaved?

So it's no surprise people come on here and say this movie and these organizations & ideas are communism. If you look close at their reasoning, you'll see just how simplistic and without base these false calls to communism really are.

For any thinking person that is... (ahem)

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

Communism fails for the simple reason that the "interim" state set up to take care of things never goes away (the dictatorship that's supposed to eventually give way to a benevolent classless society that is basically anarchy). You give a bunch of people dictatorial powers, and they won't voluntarily give them up, given the nature of power is that it draws ambitious and often violent and corrupt men in the first place.

So to setup the Venus Project, as was said earlier, you'd need some kind of "interim" dictatorship which would remain the defacto state until it either collapsed in on itself or was overthrown.

Otherwise how do you propose getting everyone to accept your system? Threat of force? Starve them out? Mass brainwashing?

How does that jibe with "universal human compassion"? Let me guess, just like so many other attempts, they'd use force on people and harsh measures "for their own good/the greater good"?

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

Sigh, again and again kurgan you show how little actual research into this topic you've done.

Your assumption that a resource-based-economy will be implemented by force is just the latest example. No one is forced, this is a social movement, and the first shift is one of values. Try it, you might like it!

Just because you have no foundation of experience or cannot relate to a topic, doesn't invalidate that topic. There is literally a mountain of scientific evidence to support these ideas and you know of NONE of it simply because you don't take 5 minutes to research the topic.

Instead, you just repeat the propaganda programming you've been engrained with... no matter how many long replies you post, it doesn't change the fact yours is simplistic reasoning based in fiction.

Paraphrasing you: "those who have power won't give it up! so Venus Project will be implemented by FORCE! My outdated value system is the ONLY way to exist, and I cannot imagine ANYTHING else, and so THIS MUST BE COMMUNISM! blah blah blah"

If you did any (ANY!) research into this topic instead of blindingly reacting and posting long replies offering little to no facts, you'd know the answer to your questions & assumptions.

How many times do I have to repeat this before it starts to sink in?

This is why no one wants to engage a discussion with you; essentially you force others to do the work that you yourself refuse (as evidenced by the above). So if you don't care enough to even be familiar with the topic, why should we take the time to discuss it with you?

You'll do the research if you really want to see the world honestly. If you don't, you won't. Apparently (again, evidenced by your posts here), you don't.

Come back when you have and we can have an actual discussion, otherwise it's just rhetoric.

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

Your assumption that a resource-based-economy will be implemented by force is just the latest example. No one is forced, this is a social movement, and the first shift is one of values. Try it, you might like it!

Well it doesn't WORK unless everyone gets on board, right? So how ARE you proposing to get everyone on board?

In practice such systems have ALWAYS been implemented by force. Hence, why that's a legitimate question here. It's more likely that it will simply never happen, because it's simply too unappealing (never mind problematic).

Just because you have no foundation of experience or cannot relate to a topic, doesn't invalidate that topic.

True. But neither then does wishful thinking make it a viable solution to all of the worlds problems.

There is literally a mountain of scientific evidence to support these ideas and you know of NONE of it simply because you don't take 5 minutes to research the topic.

Believe what you think, but I have actually spent more than 5 minutes researching it. Precisely what "scientific evidence" can you provide that "these ideas" have a better chance of working than not?

It would seem without everyone voluntarily agreeing to such a system and voluntarily giving up their freedom to make it happen (all or nothing), it won't happen. That's unlikely to happen, hence why I suggested it would only happen by force, as similar collectivist/anarachist utopian movements have sought to be established in the past.

Or there's the other option, setup your own commune somewhere and try out your experiment there. Such things have been tried before, and failed, often spectacularly. But people keep on trying...

Instead, you just repeat the propaganda programming you've been engrained with...

The only way you'll convince people these stupid ideas are good and get them to comply is either through force or propaganda. The facts are already against them, just by looking at history. Science is not guarenteed to solve all our problems. What will be the motivation for advancement if there's nothing in it for individuals but some vague "good of humanity" (in a future where they won't have personal freedom, of course). So presuming that we'll magically invent all the tech we need to do all the things we want is simply wishful thinking. Likewise presuming everyone will just give up ambition and freedom to make the program work voluntarily is naive at best.

Again, the only retort is that I'm a "Sheep" which is what I said you were going to go with all along. It never fails. Go ahead, try your little commune someplace. Good luck. I'll bet you'll fail like all the others have. But you're so sure that this time it will work. So best of luck to you. If you have to convince everyone you'll have to do better than call me a Sheep.

no matter how many long replies you post, it doesn't change the fact yours is simplistic reasoning based in fiction.

Projection much?

Paraphrasing you: "those who have power won't give it up! so Venus Project will be implemented by FORCE! My outdated value system is the ONLY way to exist, and I cannot imagine ANYTHING else, and so THIS MUST BE COMMUNISM! blah blah blah"

If you don't use Force, how do you propose getting everyone who doesn't WANT any part of it, to work with the system?

I've yet to see how this system would be any better than Communism (which also promises a classeless society where everyone is happy and has everything they could ever need or want, but has never delivered on that promise despite being tried all over the place and has similar weaknesses to this Venus Project nonsense).

If you did any (ANY!) research into this topic instead of blindingly reacting and posting long replies offering little to no facts, you'd know the answer to your questions & assumptions.

Okay, how much money do I have to sent TVP to get indoctrinated, oops, I mean "educated" into believing that this stuff is "scientifically proven" to work? It's snake oil, my friend, just like all the other utopian movements. I hear even Peter Joseph doesn't believe in their crap anymore.

How many times do I have to repeat this before it starts to sink in?

Perhaps unintentionally you've admitted the problem here. The only thing going for this movement is propaganda. Ironic that you'd accuse me of being a propaganda believer for NOT buying into TVP's utopian sandcastles.

This is why no one wants to engage a discussion with you; essentially you force others to do the work that you yourself refuse (as evidenced by the above). So if you don't care enough to even be familiar with the topic, why should we take the time to discuss it with you?

Actually, it's perfectly logical to demand that someone asserting a positive claim (such as that the Venus Project is the solution to mankind's problems), prove their claim with evidence, NOT the skeptic of such claims.

Conspiracy theorists, kooks and peddlers of pseudoscience generally hate people like me, because I have that annoying trait of holding them to logic and evidence, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt and presuming their claims are true until proven otherwise. It infuriates them, because they aren't logical people, as a rule.

You'll do the research if you really want to see the world honestly.

I do and I do. The question is, do you? Have you honestly studied the criticisms and counter-data against TVP or do you simply dissmiss that stuff as the rantings of "sheeple" because that's what you were told by the other TVP and TZM believers?

If you don't, you won't. Apparently (again, evidenced by your posts here), you don't.

I've studied enough to conclude that there's very little worthwhile here. The burden of proof is on those supporters to make their case convincing with evidence. I take it you've spent hundreds of dollars on their "educational" materials. So why don't you share what you've learned, present that evidence to us. Or is this like Scientology where only "due paying members" can know the truth?

Come back when you have and we can have an actual discussion, otherwise it's just rhetoric.

Straight up projection. If this movement is so important to you, you'll make a better effort with the next potential customer. Just saying...

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] casemon 13 years ago

No it doesn't require everyone get on board; that is one of the things you would have learned if you did anything but glance at the materials.

Even now, after numerous attempts to help illustrate how your pre-programming functions, you still try to force doing anything but cursory research onto others; how lazy is this!?

EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT OR QUESTION YOU'VE MADE HERE IS ANSWERED AND ADDRESSED IN THE (FREE TO ALL FOREVER) MATERIALS. EVERY SINGLE ONE, and yet you keep asking the same questions. Why is this?

Please understand, I don't see you as a customer and i'm not selling anything. Further, no one is interested in convincing you of anything.

If you don't see the merit & value in these ideas, then you're likely not one to respond to factual evidence.

If you want to try to cast doubt on these facts, or say no evidence exists without even looking at the evidence, or without forcing others to do the easy research for you, as you've shown here, then I cannot help you.

You obviously are not interested in the subject and I ask that you don't come here to dismiss things before you even know what they are. Do you also go to surgeons offices and criticize the choice to use the overhand stitch? No, because you haven't done any research into which stitch is best.

Same as saying, if your values are currently such that you don't care enough to do your own research on this important subject and then make up your own mind based on facts NOT the conjecture you've shown here, then you won't see validity in these ideas.

Which is very obvious thing to say, because one cannot see validity in things they do not actually look at.

I maintain you have not and you prove me correct over and over and over (evidenced by the above fact in CAPITAL LETTERS)

Simply, there are better solutions out there than the harmful outdated systems we have, and indeed, no system is perfect (there is no such thing as perfection) but some approaches, such as this one, are provably more effective than the current.

When you're motivated enough to seek out real solutions, in a real way, and not just glance at them and spout back your pre-programmed responses, you'll engage this subject from a more unbiased & informed view.

Until then, you're just wasting everyone's time.

I challenge you to be a part of the solution to these problems, not perpetuate them.

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[–] kurgan-10 13 years ago

No it doesn't require everyone get on board; that is one of the things you would have learned if you did anything but glance at the materials.

Then why is it being proposed as a solution to HUMANITY's problems and compared to "evolution" if it's something that's only for a certain number of people?

How is "the world" going to benefit from a small, closed off community living this utopian (which you claim isn't utopian) lifestyle?

Even now, after numerous attempts to help illustrate how your pre-programming functions, you still try to force doing anything but cursory research onto others; how lazy is this!?

Pre-programming? What are you, a Scientologist? I don't buy your BS terminology, sorry. Just call me a "sheep" like you want to. That's what people who don't agree with your movement are, right?

EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT OR QUESTION YOU'VE MADE HERE IS ANSWERED AND ADDRESSED IN THE (FREE TO ALL FOREVER) MATERIALS. EVERY SINGLE ONE, and yet you keep asking the same questions. Why is this?

Post the "free link" then, please. You bear the burden of proof, not me.

Please understand, I don't see you as a customer and i'm not selling anything.

You're pardon me if I'm skeptical...

Further, no one is interested in convincing you of anything.

Could have fooled me from your earlier comments! If TVP will work regardless of what the majority of humanity thinks, why are you concerned if I object to it or even make fun of it?

It sounds like you're either defending a product or trying to get me to buy. That's what it sounds like. If you're just correcting some error of fact, show the evidence, don't pretend like I have to "see for myself" (classic sales come on) to figure out that it's right.

If you don't see the merit & value in these ideas, then you're likely not one to respond to factual evidence.

Nonsense. YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT, regardless of how stupid or rude you think I am. I don't have to ask politely. You bear the burden of proof since you claimed the efficacy of TVP by scientific evidence.

If you're going to back off from that claim now, please let us know.

If you want to try to cast doubt on these facts, or say no evidence exists without even looking at the evidence, or without forcing others to do the easy research for you, as you've shown here, then I cannot help you.

WRONG. He who asserts must prove. You asserted TVP was backed by scientific proof. Now you're obligated to support that claim by presenting said evidence or retract the claim. Everyone reading this is legitimately skeptical until you do so.

You obviously are not interested in the subject and I ask that you don't come here to dismiss things before you even know what they are.

I'm calling your bluff on this one. Put up or shut up. I say you're full of BS on these claims. You can't defend it. You won't even try, and so you're go to the usual conspiracy theorist excuse of "you're too dumb, you wouldn't believe me, so I won't even try."

Go ahead, post it publicly, show me I was wrong, and convince everyone else reading it how great this movement really is. That is, if you have such evidence in the first place (which I doubt).

Do you also go to surgeons offices and criticize the choice to use the overhand stitch? No, because you haven't done any research into which stitch is best.

I don't go to just anyone to have surgery. I find a licensed physician who has been certified for that specific procedure. If something seems off I'll get a second opinion. If it turns out s/he did something not according to Hoyle, you can bet there will be a malpractice suit coming.

Real Doctors post their credentials in their offices for all to see. They don't hide behind the "well you're too dumb, so I won't tell you" excuse or the "I won't lift a finger, do the research on your own" excuse.

You want to say these guys are qualified and certified, but want me to either blindly accept that claim, or go to the trouble of proving your claim for you. Sorry, that's your job. I remain legitimately (and understandably) skeptical until you do so. Your arrogant attitude towards me won't shift that burden of proof an inch.

Same as saying, if your values are currently such that you don't care enough to do your own research on this important subject and then make up your own mind based on facts NOT the conjecture you've shown here, then you won't see validity in these ideas.

Then by all means, DO the research and win the "easy" victory. Enough bluster, show your stuff.

It's not my job to "make up my own mind" based on nonexistent evidence. You present the evidence, THEN You can talk about "make up your own mind."

You say over and over again I haven't done my research. Prove it by showing the evidence, and then we'll see who was right. You can't just shift the goalposts and except us to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You think I'm going to be obtuse in the face of clear evidence? TRY ME.

I maintain you have not and you prove me correct over and over and over (evidenced by the above fact in CAPITAL LETTERS)

More bluster. *yawn*

Simply, there are better solutions out there than the harmful outdated systems we have, and indeed, no system is perfect (there is no such thing as perfection) but some approaches, such as this one, are provably more effective than the current.

That may be the case, but thus far you've provided ZERO evidence that what TVP proposes IS first of all, "better" and second, "provably more effective."

All you've done is call me dumb, resistant to non-presented evidence, and unworthy of being shown your evidence. This is simple ad hominem and attempting to shift the burden of proof. It won't work.

When you're motivated enough to seek out real solutions, in a real way, and not just glance at them and spout back your pre-programmed responses, you'll engage this subject from a more unbiased & informed view.

Again, more flawed logic. I am allowed to disagree with TVP regardless whether I have a "better solution" to the world's problems.

But how is this for a better solution... something EVIDENCE BASED? You've yet to show TVP takes an evidence based approach in the first place. Now you've made it clear you are resistant to doing so and attack ME for being skeptical of extraordinary, unproven claims.

Until then, you're just wasting everyone's time.

You're actually doing me a favor by strengthening the case I just made which is that TVP (like TZM) is all talk, and using wishful thinking to increase their movements influence (if not its coffers). If you can't be bothered to defend your views with evidence, why should we bother examining them for ourselves?

I've already seen enough to make me skeptical. You want more than that, you need to start backing up your claims.

I challenge you to be a part of the solution to these problems, not perpetuate them.

I'm doing my part by challenging YOU to back up what you've said. I'll rightfully remain skeptical of TVP and TZM until you do so.

Ball is in your court, my friend. Good luck!

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/

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[–] KantianShmantian 13 years ago

I lol when people who have never read any sort of communist writings (Communist Manifesto, Capital) assume that anything that they don't agree with is "Communist bullsh*t". Read some Marx you ignorant twat. Nothing about this film is "Communist propaganda"

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