MovieChat Forums > Copie conforme (2011) Discussion > My dream deciphered their true relations...

My dream deciphered their true relationship - SPOILERS!


I went to see this film on Saturday and that night I dreamed about the film, I was dreaming that I was figuring the film out, and it became very clear to me the following:

Juliette Binoche's character was the man's mistress, had a child by him, but he just wouldn't marry her how she obviously once thought he would, hence their relationship can be seen as a 'certified copy', ie, not the real thing. Hence her obsession with weddings, hence her strange reaction when their son asked 'why didn't you want him to sign my full name in the book?'...ie, because the son does not have his surname. Hence her saying she's a 'single mother', hence her telling him that the waitress 'thought we were a married couple and I didn't tell her otherwise'... etc.

The anniversary they were celebrating was their 15 years together, not their marriage. This also explains why he stepped outside to take calls on his mobile, to talk to his wife. When he took a call outside when they were in the cafe, and the older waitress said to Juliette, 'he has a mistress... that's why you are looking at him'...and she said 'no', she put on a strange face....because actually she herself was his mistress.

At the end when she asks him to stay at the hotel ....to not catch the 9pm train (to his wife), it is probably something she has asked him hundreds of times before, hence his exasperated look....the man caught between two women. Hence, he was defending before 'the copy', in other words, implying that their relationship was like a marriage, that it didn't matter that he was legally married to another woman. Of course, just like in a true marriage, after 15 years together their relationship has become more of a 'warpath', time increasing their obvious differences.

Does the film and their relationship make sense in that context?

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A couple of questions for the OP if she would be so kind:

1. Does James know that her child is his child also?

2. Is she married now? She must have married at one time because James asks if she were married in the place they visited. She doesn't answer him.

3. Did they always live in different countries? Presumably he lives in England and she has lived in Italy for 5 years. Or does he live in Italy too?

4. Did James remind you of Jeremy Irons?

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Since you haven't gotten a reply, I'll take a shot at answering your questions.

1. Yes, since James knows about the incident where the woman fell asleep at the wheel with the boy in the back seat. Presumably James and the woman had a 1-3 year affair after their holiday in Tuscany. The boy was born during this time period. He had to be very young when James left his mother because the boy doesn't recognize James at the beginning of the movie. After the breakup, the boy never sees James again until James gives the lecture in his home town.

2. The woman has probably never been married to James because the boy had to take her last name. This fact is very embarrassing to her based on her reaction when the boy teasingly asks her why she told James to write only the boy's first name when he autographed the book.

3. They probably met in France, based on their conversation in the coffee shop--something about him never bothering to learn French (he was presumably British). At some point during their affair, they vacationed in Italy, staying at the hotel shown at the end of the movie. Long after they break up, around 5 years before the start of the movie, the woman moves to Florence.

4. He did now that you mention it.

See my other posts for a detailed interpretation of the plot.

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^Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

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There is no doubt in my mind that jmc4769 has a correct interpretation. I only have one point to raise: it seems to me that the explanation about the boy's last name is a bit lacking. Embarrassment about having had a child out of wedlock doesn't really cover why she would only want the father to see his first name. If he is the father, and he knows the son is his son, then her insistence about concealing his surname this seems a little unnecessary, and the interpretation a little forced. And yet, this discussion, though it occurs early in the movie, is clearly important, and is re-emphasized by all the discussion about how to sign each particular copy of the book during the driving scene. So, then, how should we understand her insistence on keeping James ignorant about Julien's last name?

One possibility occurs to me: yes, James and Elle (is this really her name?) did get together as jmc4769 explains it, and then again five years before the film starts, with James certainly under the impression that Julien is his son. But perhaps Julien is not in fact his son, but the son of another man, the product of a relationship she had around the same time. This would explain why, in the discussion about the son's name, there is never any indication whether in fact the son has the same first name as his mother: perhaps it is a mystery we are meant to solve later in the film. For this to be true, for Julien to be the son of a man other than James, one element of jmc4769's explanation would have to be incorrect: they could not have lived together for the first year or so. But I am not convinced that there is reason to believe they did so. Yes, he knows about the incident where Elle fell asleep while driving. But he was not in the car at that time, so I am not sure why the story itself shows that they were a couple living together.

A possible objection to this idea would be that it is too artificial: there is no other evidence that she had a child with another man. This is true. But on the other hand, perhaps there is another reason to consider this theory. The explanation by jmc4769 is in the end fairly one-sided: the woman wants a relationship and marriage, and the man (who is probably married in England) refuses and is some species of jerk who has had nothing to do with the raising of his son, comes to visit his mistress on very rare occasions and ultimately believes that everyone should be able to live their lives "for themselves" (as he puts it). Her misery is due almost entirely to his lack of "responsibility" (as she accuses him at one point). But what if Julien is not his son, and Julien in fact took the name of his biological father (perhaps she was even married to another man at the time they got together, but concealed this from James)? In that case, the fact that James believes he is his son is because Elle has misleadingly allowed him to believe it, because whoever the real father is, now her ex, doesn't interest her and is considered by her to be unimportant: for her, she wants it to be that James is Julien's father (because she thinks that his "real" father, the "original", is not as good as the "copy"), just as she wants it to be that she is James's "real" woman.

I can understand resistance to this theory, because if it is true, nothing really points to it being a possibility except the discussion between mother and son about last names. Nevertheless, I think it provides a more coherent and comprehensive explanation of that small but important piece of dialogue. One advantage of the theory, however, is that it adds a little more balance to the portrayal of the protagonists: yes, James is certainly a jerk, protecting himself at all costs while keeping her hanging on in some way long after there is any hope for the relationship. But she too is flawed, using her son's existence as a kind of psychological weapon in the battle of their non-relationship (their third-rate "copy" of a relationship). And in this theory, perhaps they had both been married to other partners at the time they met and conceived a child, and perhaps, too, in that first meeting they both concealed their marital status from each other. To me this fits a little better with the facts, and the symmetry of it also fits with Kiarostami's dislike of simplistic moralising narratives.

Just an idea.

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Although that is a very interesting theory, I believe it to be false. They mention their wedding when she is talking about how he only shaves every other day. So it appears they actually did get married

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In my opinion, Certified Copy is a brilliant movie. If it has any major failing, it's that the script leaves the audience too confused at the end. The plot is open to three main interpretations:

1. The man and the woman are married, but they are pretending not to be in the first half of the movie.
2. They are not married, but they are pretending to be in the second half.
3. The movie is a philosophical discussion of marriage that more or less defies logic.

I believe that there are serious problems with #1. These problems are discussed at length in my posts and other posts in this thread. #3 is favored by those who think director and screenwriter, Abbas Kiarostami never intended for the plot to make sense. They don't think either #1 or #2 fits the script. The consensus of this thread, which is the most popular one on the board, supports #2. This interpretation fits all the evidence without any significant exceptions. In an earlier post in this thread, I attempted to reconstruct a history of the couples' relationship, which I believe addresses all of the major counter-arguments against #2, including yours. In the second half of the movie, they briefly and playfully pretend to be married (they apparently had an affair some years ago). But once they get to the restaurant, they quickly drop the role-playing and start arguing about what happened the night before.

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What is the group's interpretation of the languages they speak? I had a feeling that English and French had different meanings... French was more intimate, made them (especially her) look more vulnerable, so perhaps that is a clue into them being together in France earlier. Also, when they talked about the car incident, she did say something about driving every Sunday, which makes me think that they were not married.

Regardless of whether they were or were not, the film is a masterpiece in its execution. There isn't a single thing that is out of place - framing, camerawork, reflections, extras, sound, acting. I really enjoyed it.

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"In the second half of the movie, they briefly and playfully pretend to be married (they apparently had an affair some years ago). But once they get to the restaurant, they quickly drop the role-playing and start arguing about what happened the night before."

Exactly so. One key moment in the film is the shot from behind the bar. We gaze past She at the table, through the window where we see the man talking on his phone. The barmaid believes she is looking at a married man (whose wife is seated in the bar) speaking to his mistress. If fact, the entire film makes perfect sense once we understand that the man is speaking to his wife and the woman at the table is his former mistress. The "copy" relationship has been mistaken for the "original."

Notions of perception and value are at the heart of the film. Especially noteworthy is the exchange in the museum where we see the forgery under glass. That this and other discussions are enhanced when viewing the film through the interpretation of current pretense based upon past involvement renders it the most compelling, logical and satisfying reading.

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I think your version of 2 is consistent, but I don't think it's the only version of 2 that is, and it may not be the most satisfying version of 2.

Call yours 2a and this one 2b ...

They are complete strangers. She is attracted to him because he physically resembles her ex-husband, and she genuinely finds his book enormously engaging intellectually (agreeing and disagreeing with it strongly in different places). Once she gets to know him, she finds that he is very much like her ex-husband in terms of character -- not a surprise given how much she liked the book.

Everything that happens after they are mistaken for husband and wife is pure role-playing by both of them. They both stick with it because they find it therapeutic, psychologically illuminating. They challenge one another with bits and pieces of an invented shared past, which they create by drawing on their real pasts. This is not 100% realistic, but it is only slightly artificial in a way that's enormously common in cinema. So they are creating a certified copy of a marriage, and the film, by becoming much less realistic, is reminding us that it is a certified copy of reality.

Some examples of how the role playing works: it really was her 15th anniversary the night before, which she spent painfully alone. She combines that fact with a real, painful memory of her husband falling asleep on some other occasion (perhaps a 5th anniversary). She's not complaining to him about a real thing that happened between them; she is expressing her loneliness and grief to a stranger in a way that weirdly is easier by pretending that it did. He can identify with this story because he knows he has been guilty of the same thing, and of course his natural inclination will be to defend the "guy", but he also wants to make her feel better about what happened to her (probably not getting that it is a very old memory) ... so from his own past he summons up the falling asleep at the wheel story. And she immediately gets the point he is making, and argues with him as if the story had really happened.

They have many opportunities to essentially break the fourth wall and stop the role playing, and they sometimes nearly do ... when he is simply too worn out to play along when she has him look out the window of her honeymoon room, he simply says "I don't remember," which actually means "I've got nothing to contribute here, role-playing-wise ... we can only take this so far." The role-playing only stops when he reminds her he needs to be back by 9:00.

This is the interpretation I had as I was watching the movie, and it works really well in terms of explaining the performances. It may not work quite as well as yours, but I think this version, where the relationship they are constructing in the second half is a pure invention, is deeper artistically, and more tightly integrates the themes of the movie. I like the idea that in the first half, the actors are acting, and in the second half, the characters are acting ... giving us copies of copies. And the acting is psychologically illuminating for the characters in the same way that watching actors is illuminating for the audience.

Of course it stretches credulity that two people would role-play so intensely and consistently, so it requires the proverbial "willing suspension of disbelief." Compared to, say, a billionaire dressing up in a costume to fight crime, though, it's really not that much of a stretch.

I think both of these interpretations were intended.


Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

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You have a very interesting interpretation of the plot. It's one of the most comprehensive that I've seen. As you admit though, there are some problems.

The main difficulty I have with the theory that they are complete strangers is the intensity of their argument at the restaurant. As I said in an earlier post, I was shocked at the raw emotions in that part of the movie, emotions that only make sense if there is a painful history between the two. James even tells her that he hates her after they leave the restaurant.

I see your point that they could have been expressing sensitive issues from their own past relationships. But I just find it hard to believe that two strangers would act this way. Strangers might reveal personal information about themselves and get a little emotional about their past. But I don't think propriety would allow strangers to say what they said to each other, even if they are role-playing. Besides, if they really were strangers, I would have expected one or both of them to at some point after leaving the restaurant say something like, "I'm so sorry. I was completely out of line back there. I've had some really bad experiences in the past, and I just let things get out of hand when we were talking."

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Hey, just watchedthemovie andwhile searching for the interpretation i came to mine which is a mix of yours. My idea is that the movie is a 2h shortcut of their 15 years relationship. That's why it is so dynamic and changes quickly. And in that case we have 2 scenarios: they are a couple or they don't know each other but act in this game- which scenario is true is not really a matter as the director said. What is important is their pain and that they cant achieve any compromise. Once they were in love and young and Elle cannot accept what happened later: dissapointments, feeling alone, distance. She wants what the woman said about the sculpture- to hold her and support her- other arguments dont matter. While James feels this ideais a fantasy and he takes the relationship as it is- he doesnt interfere too much and let it be. Here isthe point where the audiencehas to decide which of this 2 versions is original and copy. The couple seems to disagree on that and they cant compromise. What do you think?

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[deleted]

Thank you for your clear explanation of this movie, which had me puzzled. Even if the director didn't intend the meaning to be this way, it makes an otherwise boring and inscrutable film seem less like a waste of time.

Please explain James' story about seeing a woman and child in Florence walking every day down the street ouside his window. Was she "stalking" him, because he had stopped visiting her?

Why was he so callous about acknowledging his son?

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It's nice to see that this old thread from IMDB has been copied to moviechat.org. Thanks!

I still stick by my dream's analysis, btw.

Otherwise, why would she be so obsessed with weddings?

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