Daenerys's transformation
Makes sense from a broad point. In the pilot, she was one of the more weak, helpless victims, and by the final episode, she's the main villain. To be honest I feel like that's the main theme of the series.
shareMakes sense from a broad point. In the pilot, she was one of the more weak, helpless victims, and by the final episode, she's the main villain. To be honest I feel like that's the main theme of the series.
shareIt really could have worked, if they'd taken the time to make her gradually more unbalanced over time, but they didn't. They had her go from zero to batshit in about three episodes, and made a complete mess of the idea. An unstoppable dragon queen that nobody can beat and who's getting crazier over time could have been great!
My fantasy alternate ending is one where, among other things, Jon and Danerys Targaryan become enemies and fight for the Iron Throne, and all the other characters take sides and kill each other - no more plot armor! In that scenario, which would have taken another two seasons, what with doing a proper job of fighting against the Others, Danerys would have had the time to gradually destabilize, and let her baseline ruthlessness turn into real crazy.
Agreed.
shareI largely agree. The final season is not just bad, also too rushed.
To justify killing Danerys, there need to be more. Danerys can't still be an idealist, she did not do this for the people of 7 kingdoms.
Also not just about Danerys becoming more ruthless or consumed by power. John Snow should not have killed Danerys simply because one battle involved of the death of civilians, he should have at least voiced his objections, like I would leave if this kept happening. There is not that much difference between Danerys and the other rulers of 7 kingdoms, why Danerys was held at that high a standard.
Tyrion also should not have acted like some idealists concerned about the death of civilians. The road to throne is paved with death and blood, Tyrion knew that from the beginning. He was born a ruler, in his words, it was his birth right, he did not care about the little people, at least he did not show that until the last season.
In the final season it was suddenly a Disney show.
Well, there needed to be more of everything in S8! Like a full season or two, not just a few slapdash episodes!
As for Jon realizing Dany was now a whole anthill short of a picnic, that wasn't because she attacked civilians, like any general he has to accept ruthlessness. It was because she attacked civilians pointlessly! Seriously, Cersei had no heir and was standing up on a tower in plain view, right where a dragon could blast the tower and end the war. Dany had been a brilliant general for 7 seasons, but she ignored her #1 target to torch harmless civilians, which was useless, stupid, crazy, and unworthy of a queen.
There are a lot far worse things done in wars, like flaying civilians when battles were over, like letting soldiers loose, having them killing, robbing and raping civilians as rewards, it was not even uncommon in GoT world. Comparing to those Danerys was basically snow white.
So that is hardly some last straw in killing Danerys.
Like I said, in the final season the moral standards were suddenly very Disney.
I'll put it this way - worse things happened during S8, than Jon realizing that stupid, crazy, counterproductive slaughter made someone unfit to rule! It wasn't completely believable, of course, but as a plot twist it wasn't nearly as head-slappingly stupid as king WHO???
Or a hundred other idiotic ideas that weren't shot down when they should have been.
GoT is popular I think because it is showing to what extend people were capable of in pursuit of power, it's realness, no sugar coating anything.
In the final season, to me it is suddenly a Disney prince, princess and dragon story.
Don't be silly! Most Disney stories are FAR more coherent and believable than S8!
And if we don't agree on which was the most irritating S8 fail, well. There are so many to choose from, of course opinions on what to hate most will vary with that much crap to choose from.
Most Disney stories are FAR more coherent and believable than S8!
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Yes, it could have worked. If they invested a couple of seasons into it.
shareJust did a rewatch. The first viewing I couldn’t get over what a let down Jon Snow & the Night King’s story was, but 2nd time was easier to let it ride.
When it came to Daenerys “melt down”. I was thinking, even with the rushed season/episodes, they could’ve pulled it off much more poetic & nuanced. If they had Daenerys, in rushed anger, go straight for the castle/red keep in a “fuck you, Cersei”
type move. And only burning/demolishing it. Because that’s where her true enemy/Cersei was. Daenerys could burn it down, then that fire could’ve accidentally set off the long hidden “wild fire” that was placed strategically throughout the city. Like the Mad King planned to do long ago. Plus, it would be kinda prophecy fulfilling as she’s the one who finally does what her father/Mad King wanted by “burning them all” with his wildfire.
Daenerys would still be in the wrong in Jon’s eyes etc. for rushing in & blowing apart the castle after the bells rang, killing all the innocent people inside. With her actions then igniting her fathers wildfire, which takes out the rest of the civilians throughout the city. Making her look even worse. In the end Kings Landing would still be demolished & it would’ve still all been her bad. Leaving Jon to do what he had to do. But it wouldn’t have been such a sudden character change. Daenerys was always quick to be cutthroat & brutal with her “enemies” but she never went out of her way to butcher innocent civilians.
Instead she goes from Daenerys straight into full on cold blooded murderer. Because she literally starts by ONLY burning civilians, over & over & over… As she slowly makes her way to the castle. Which is ridiculous.
I disagree that Jon would blame Dany if an assault on the castle set of wildfire that neither of them knew was there. Jon is very aware of the fortunes and misfortunes of war, more so than a lot of the fans!
The thing is, her frying civilians after she'd won the war, and to no military purpose... wasn't a bad idea. Early in her campaign of conquest she did spare civilians when it was possible to do so and to still achieve her goals, as she largely did in her conquest of Slaver's Bay. She'd been ruthless but just (by the standards of that world) for seven seasons, the burning of King's Landing really did show that she was no longer stable or fit to rule... and if they'd done a PROPER FUCKING JOB of wrapping up the War of Five Kings (and Two Queens) then it might have been great. But it wasn't, it was just one more eye-roll-inducing botch in the mess that was S8.
That’s the thing though. He didn’t even blame her in the version we have. So it wouldn’t have changed the outcome, because Jon was ready to let her murderous rampage go. He even begged her in the throne room. But she said she wouldn’t stop, so he killed her. Meaning, he didn’t kill her because of what she did to Kings Landing. He killed her because of what she would do next.
But my problem isn’t the outcome, it’s the manner of which brought us there. It’s so silly to me that Daenerys all the sudden decide to kill all those civilians. She literally only goes after them. As she slowly & methodically flys over the city burning them all. Which I’ll always think is ridiculous. I’d get it if she went straight for the castle & obliterated it, but not the people.
It just would’ve let Daenerys have a little more sympathetic & somber ending note for her character. Kings Landing would still be in ruin. She’d still be wrong. Still be unapologetic about it. But she wouldn’t be as she is now, with her character ending as a crazy cold blooded killer. At least there’d be a little nuance to it.
Congrats on remembering more details about that episode than I have, I couldn't bear to watch it again!
But I agree that most of the problems weren't the outcomes, it was the manner in which it was slapped together carelessly. Jon turning against Dany because she torched innocent civilians without a strategic reason definitely could have worked, Dany going nuts absolutey could have worked. Even the ridiculous final council meeting, which had me throwing crap at the screen, might have been carried off if written with the same brilliance as the first few seasons - like having the nobles decide that from now on the monarchy would no longer be hereditary, the king would be a powerless figurehead and all the read decisions would be made by themselves, including choosing the next king... even that could have worked!
But as presented, none of it did.
Yeah, I remember because I just watched the episode before I wrote what’s above.
Absolutely ridiculous ending. On all fronts.
Agreed. A shitshow!
But the frustrating thing is that... the potential for a good finale was there. It's SO frustrating!
That’s exactly the problem. Also why it still hurts.
Such promising heights they could’ve had…but in the end they shit the bed & got out as quick as possible.
Beyond frustrating…