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Why are they trying to retroactively fix Sansa?

posted 6 years ago by ColdOfWinter (147)
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In episode 1 of this season they took two of the most liked characters of the show and had them declare Sansa as smart (smartest Arya knows even), and greatly underestimated while she was in King's landing. Both of these things contradict how Sansa has been represented on the show. Then in the 2nd episode, Danny actually compares their struggles and declares them both impressive females that handle power well.

This isn't a "I hate Sansa" post, as much as I am genuinely confused why the writers are going through this trouble. At this point we have most likely made up our mind about her, and sorry, but she is not a strong character, she is not an impressive leader, and she has not proven to be anywhere near smart in the show. They can write her this way going forward, but she was a very stupid, easily manipulated, and weak person for almost the entire show run.

Maybe this is a sign of where the show is going to end up? If feels like the writers are planning for her to be a major part of the transformed kingdom.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8711) 6 years ago

Characters grow. Sansa has grown through her experiences, many of which were rough and unfortunate. She's older now, and wiser to the ways of the world.

At least I think that's what the writers are going for. Is it earned? Somewhat, I'd say. She HAS gone through some shit that would change anyone, and she also was more or less apprenticed to Littlefinger, who despite ultimately getting killed was one of the most politically astute characters on the show.

[–] ColdOfWinter (147) 6 years ago

Sure, and if Tyrion had mentioned that she "wasn't the same person" or "stronger because of what she went through" I could cringe and let it go. But he is talking about the Sansa that was in King's Landing. She wasn't underestimated in her role there, she was every bit as weak and pathetic as they all believed, even in her own escape she had NOTHING to do with it.

As for Arya's "smartest person she knows" comment, I can't think of a single thing that Sansa has done in front of Arya that would have earned that reputation. Even when she finally saw through Little Finger's game it was after others had already warned her about him.

[–] dmac8 (5050) 6 years ago

I think the Arya comment is to tip us off that there's a Sansa authored plan in place to save Starks.

[–] ColdOfWinter (147) 6 years ago

That would be something. I would probably hold off and see if a plan works before throwing around "smartest person I know", but it would be a nice clever way to explain the weird compliment.

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8711) 6 years ago

I think this may be a case where inference will come in handy. The way I choose to handle this situation is to assume--or infer--that something has happened off screen to warrant these opinions.

[–] winslow (1318) 6 years ago

She learned how to survive in kings landing, and that was accomplished mainly by appearing weak and helpless when dealing with cersei (at first it was real, but afterward it was an act). Like after Ned Stark was killed. Then later she used the same tactics to keep the lords of the Vale from killing littlefinger.

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

Except it really wasn't an act at King's Landing. We never got a whiff that she was actually smarter than she appeared.

Meanwhile, Margaery Tyrell showed us how to deal with Cersei. She was sharp as a tack and only a year older than Sansa. The only reason she perished was because the High Zealot prevented her from leaving the sept even after she accurately anticipated the fate Cersei had in store for them.

[–] ColdOfWinter (147) 6 years ago

That's actually a great point. Maybe that's why I hate how the show is trying to rewrite Sansa, because we actually see the person they are describing but it was in Margaery.

When they are together at King's Landing you can't mistake the stark difference, and Sansa comes out looking like a scared little girl.

[–] eYeDEF (5050) 6 years ago

Yeah I would buy it more if they just showed Sansa had grown wiser. Wisdom does come from age, and I would expect all those years experiencing tragic losses would turn her into a wisened cynic.

Instead, we see her taking command after Jon leaves, barking orders knowing exactly the manpower and provisions they'll need for the winter as if she would have ever paid attention to such details when she expected to be a princess. But it especially got to be a bit much watching how expertly she roped Littlefinger into believing his plan was going exactly as he devised in their final private scene together prior to his trial and execution. Her deception was delivered like a complete natural. We'd never seen that side of her up to that point, it made you wonder where and how she became such a pro.

But yeah, Arya calling her the smartest person in the world was really over the top. I didn't read as much into the "impressive females" comment by Dany as you did seeing as how she was trying to find a way to connect with Sansa after special pleading from Jorah, so I'd expect some sort of flattery.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 6 years ago

Margaery was one of my favorite characters, but she foolishly indulged her own hubris with respect to Cersei to a fatal degree.

[–] ColdOfWinter (147) 6 years ago

See but that just doesn't add up to what we actually saw. If it was all an act and she was no longer weak, she would have never been manipulated by Little Fingers again to get sent to Ramsey. When Brien showed up to save her, she once again believed Little Finger was her protector... its all the same mistakes she made in King's Landing.

Did she learn how to play the part of a weak and helpless girl? I guess so, but she never really used that skill in any meaningful way that displayed actual power, or skill.

She had no hand in killing Joffery, she had no power to save her father, she did nothing to further her brother's rebellion, and she had nothing to do with her own escape. These were all main story plots that were going on around her that she failed to take any part in.

Her protecting Little Finger from the Vale was actually just another bad decision proving that she still hadn't really learned anything. If she had turned on Little Finger and then manipulated Robyn to control the Vale's army herself, that would have been a more impressive display of lessons she learned from King's Landing.

[–] winslow (1318) 6 years ago

She wasn't ready to make power moves like that back then, but she learned some important survival skills. That's the conversation she had with Tyrion. She's lived her whole life around powerful people and learned a little something from each one. We are only starting to see her getting into final form now, because she only got real power last season when Jon left her in charge.

[–] chrisjdel (2714) 6 years ago

Sansa was only 14 the first season, and 17 when she had to flee King's Landing. It's been a steep learning curve since things went to ѕhit. Like spoiled children everywhere she had potential all along but until she was forced to dig deep it never really developed. I wouldn't call her the smartest character on the show, or the toughest either (she still hasn't been trained to fight). But she's become mentally very tough, and she's always been smart - if naive and lacking in common sense a lot longer than she should've been.

Arya's comments could be foreshadowing some master plan of Sansa's. Or it could just be sister sticking up for sister. Or a little of both. Arya could also be trying to tell Jon he should trust her. Jon is a lot of things, but a genius isn't one of them, and he often needs to be reminded to listen to people with more knowledge or a different perspective.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 6 years ago

It all rings very hollow to me. Sansa may have gotten smarter, but she is far from worthy of Arya's "smartest person" description. Her leadership qualities are also way overblown.

It could be that GRRM's ending has a plan for Sansa that they had not adequately prepared for in prior seasons, so now they are trying to catch up.

[–] RoloTony (1286) 6 years ago

If they would've given her an arc like Jamie to redeem or change herself through relatable experiences she could easily be who she is now. But you're right. They never wrote her that way so it's too little too late. So now they're just throwing her in tight leather, chains and willing her to be smart and powerful.

[–] dmac8 (5050) 6 years ago

well, she was mysteriously absent from these 11th hour reminiscences in her own home. And she's been cozy with the Vail with little side chats. Something's up.

I thought the scene with Jorah and little Lady Mormont was weird too.

[–] ducksoup (3933) 6 years ago

That one I liked. But yeah, just in contrast to the rest of the episode.

[–] ducksoup (3933) 6 years ago

You know, I wasn't even thinking about this, but you're absolutely right. It's just one more "fuck you" to anyone who's been paying attention.

[–] R_Kane (15828) 6 years ago

Sansa was the prodigy who actually longed to marry Joffre, believed him when he promised to show her father mercy, then essentially got conned into sexual slavery by Littlefinger. Now she’s smarter than Tyrion and Sam combined? As accomplished a leader as Dany? Horsefeathers! They forgot to hit the audience with the Men In Black memory-wiper before trotting this codswallop out. I wonder how many takes it took for Maisie Williams to be able to deliver that preposterous line without falling to the ground and rolling around, shrieking in hysterical laughter.

Or maybe it was a dream sequence.

[–] Threadkiller (3075) 6 years ago

I agree with the OP. Her convervsation with Danaerys was strange but I was particularly thrown by Arya's decleration of Sansa as the smartest person she's ever known. Like seriously? Since when and why? Based on what did she come to this concusion? It would make zero sense for her to express that opinion prior to her return to Winterfell. So what then? When they were both acting like idiots and let a very transparent scheme of Littlefinger put them at odds and needed Bran's psychic abilities to bail them out? Give me a break. Talk about forced. Sansa simply showing relative compitency at being Lady of House Stark hardly warrants such excessessive praise either. It does strike as the writers trying too hard.