It doesn't help that the actress is awful, but her rule in Essos was a dumpster fire. She fights atrocities with atrocities. The rounded up a bunch of masters (innocent or guilt didn't matter) and fed them to her dragons in an act of brutal terror. She is her father's daughter and I hope Tyrion comes to his senses and offs her.
D&D talk about her like she's jesus though.
I think she's meant to be admirable, or as admirable as power players get in Essos and Westeros get... which isn't all that admirable by our standards. She does play politics in the style of eastern Esdos, which is much bigger on terrorizing your enemies into submission than ethics, but she does believe in some good principles that are rare in her world - like trying to stamp put slavery and thinking the people should elect their own leaders.
And she's played by a very likeable actress, which brings me to Arya - another character who's played by such a likeable actress that people lose sight of how bad her actions really are. Lots of people disapprove of Danerys, but I seem to be the only one who thinks Arya's become an irredeemable mass murderer. Everyone else roots for her.
People love Arya and root for her because she is bringing some justice to the series. We've seen season after season of innocents being tortured and slaughtered with precious little to offset it.
People love Arya and root for her because they have absolutely no understanding of a character's complexity and they're just happy that she's brutally killing people.
She's not a character you are supposed to root for. You're supposed to feel bad that her life has made her a brutal psychopath.
Even when she kills Cersei, and probably die doing it, I will mourn little Arya, the bright eyed kid who was learning how to yield a sword in season 1.
If she hadn't learned to wield a sword in Season 1, she would have been dead long ago. Everyone she kills deserves to die and most if not all of her targets would have ended up killing more innocent people if Arya hadn't taken them out. Sorry, but I don't see psychopathy or tragedy here, only justice.
shareI do see tragedy here, but not the kind being discussed. I love Arya, which is probably by now obvious. I also mourn for her--and also for Lady Mormont--because the world has robbed her of her childhood.
shareI do see tragedy in Arya that like Sansa she's no longer the little naive Stark in the first season (though I really couldn't stand Sansa back then). But I don't see the comparison with Dany at all, Arya's killings have all been against those who have killed, butchered, raped, and have done unspeakable acts, what many of us consider to be justified. She has killed specifically, not by mass murder. Dany otoh like the OP has pointed out has murdered with little prejudice and has done so in the most cruel way. She is against slavery which is admirable by today's standards and by most of us, but the unprecedented torture and killing of masters has made me wonder about her ability to discern and sift through her emotions vs the accepted societal culture at the time. She isn't specific as Arya, she merely decided that all masters must be crucified and more, she is a mass murderer. And this is why I like both Jon Snow and Ned Stark because despite what they have witnessed and experienced, they have both stuck by their convictions, integrity, and nobility - I don't see that with most of the other characters in GOT and I doubt most of us could be just as stubborn and strong willed in our/their principles as they are, given similar circumstances.
share"She has killed specifically, not by mass murder."
I guess you missed the last episode, where she killed about a hundred people because they belonged to a family, not because she was sure each one was guilty of participating in the Red Wedding.
You keep saying that.
But fact is, we don’t know who exactly was sitting in that room.
Maybe she invited them specifically, maybe she didn’t. Probably she didn’t, but we just don’t know.
… Apart from that, I still believe that it’s very unlikely that anyone of the Freys wasn’t a participating in the Red Wedding, but of course, that’s just an assumption, too.
And still I say: Whether Arya kills specifically or not, remains to be seen – by what happens to the Lannister soldiers she met.
She killed men who took part in the wedding, those who were called and joined for that celebration. Notice how she made sure the wife did not drink because she spared her knowing she was an innocent.
I'm surprised you think those men Arya killed are innocent actually.
I agree, Vicky. Arya has, in my view, great integrity and genuine courage. This is why I would love for Brienne, the most admirable character in this story, to become Arya's mentor.
shareI agree with you. Arya has turned into quite the mass murderer and she doesn't seem to have any qualms about it - she enjoys it. I think she's always on a knife point ready to kill anyone who says a word that triggers her. I have to wonder what the quieter Sansa will turn into, in her own way, because of the psychotic people and conditions she's been exposed to.
shareShe is a power hungry person. She has everything. Two cities in essos. Dragonstone. And still she will cause the deaths of many innocent people in her war on the lannisters who would die out in one generation anyway.
So no. Anyone with a brain hates her. I hope and pray they make Jon snow or at least Davos kind of illuminate this viewpoint.
I am wondering how tyrion will react now that he is actively planning his brothers death essentially. The showrunners have to be careful here because dany is definately an over the top egomaniac bent on revenge and people will start to revolt against Her
I don't hate her. I find her character fascinating. I don't think she's a good person, but I don't hate her. I really like how the show/books don't just have good and evil characters. Each character has good and evil in them. They are both heroes and villains. Dany is no different. She has caused a lot of damage, but her intentions were good. You know what they say about the road to hell.
Jamie is another one that fascinates me. He has done some despicable things, but he also has admirable qualities. It's difficult to hate him, but then I remember him pushing a child off of a tower and wonder how this can be the same person. Most of these characters have so much depth to them it's hard to know what to think of them.
Her life is as an aristocratic autocrat in a violent political world. Frequently her hand has been forced in situations which demand actions that serve to preserve life as much as destroy it. Her enemies lose their lives/property because they insist on acting aggressively and without justice. All of them have trodden on innocent masses of people.
If she decided to turn her back on being a queen things would have been left as they were and many dubious characters and oppressors would get away with their misdeeds.
I also cannot imagine her as a ruler unlike Tyrion or Jon Snow, she is a conqueror and a warrior like Robert Baratheon who thrive on blood and warfare but not much else.
shareIn episode 2 she promised to burn Varys alive if he plots against her as opposed to openly cooperating with her. That sounds pretty harsh but I guess its also a way of clearly stating her determination not to be trodden on or stabbed in the back.
Olenna advises her to act aggressively so the "sheep" lords of Westeros will take her seriously. Tyrion suggests a war strategy of seeking to ally with the lords rather than to pursue a "scorched earth" invasion. Meanwhile, Cersei has warned those lords of the supposed viciousness of Dany and her family, that they should see Dany as a threat to the kingdom.
So, the lords in question have been prepped to expect a ruthless invading queen. Will that be enough to turn them against her? If she wins the war will they expect to be oppressed or will they accept someone with a more even hand? It seems that Dany has no choice or opportunity to make a positive impression on them if she can't influence the propaganda war. Trying to make allies with some of the lords will be difficult if they assume the worst about her.
"In episode 2 she promised to burn Varys alive if he plots against her as opposed to openly cooperating with her. That sounds pretty harsh but I guess its also a way of clearly stating her determination not to be trodden on or stabbed in the back."
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^^^She really did come across as to be very harsh indeed but you are right, such acts as harsh as they are may simply be prudent actions. Still, her threat of fire to me seems like an implication or a clue left by the showrunners that she is indeed headed for the Mad King scenario.
Both Olenna and Tyrion have very wise advises but Tyrion understands the people and Cersei better than anyone. It would be interesting to see if she follows Olenna's advice which seems more akin to her instincts or Tyrion, a more benevolent and riskier advice but one made with an intimate knowledge of Westeros and Cersei.
The description of the threat to Varys is not correct. She confronted him on his record of supporting, then betraying various kings, and of plotting to assassinate her. She demanded to know why she should trust him and where his loyalties were. He stated that his loyalties are not with any king but with the people who suffer or thrive under a king's rule. He supports her because she seems to understand this.
Danny's threat comes after her acceptance of this and her statement that she expects Varys to tell her up front if she doesn't live up to his expectations. It's on the condition of his going behind her back rather than openly communicating that her threat comes. Thus is an intense and important conversation and an important declaration of Danny's' reasons for wanting to rule. She is harsh, but no harsher than Varys himself was. They were both honest with each other. I consider this to have been a strong and important moment for both.
TBH, I find it hard for a subordinate to be upfront to their King/Queen if they are in the grips of madness. We don't know much about Aerys, only that he was a good man, a good King, driven mad, yet I wonder if no one attempted to confront or advice him as well that may have fallen on mad ears. So I did hear Dany's threat and her demand of open communication but I also can see how that may be difficult and a risk to those close to her if she indeed carries that genetic trait. For now, in her lucid state, she is already quite harsh and can be very cruel, she is certainly capable of cruel acts as she is now, despite it's justification (by others). But what happens when she does go mad? How much more cruel can she get? I imagine that that is a scary prospect. Ned's father, went to Aerys and confronted him before anything, his son Brandon followed suit and confronted Aerys as well, and it didn't bode well for the two. So open communication may not be as easy or effective in such cases. And her threat of being burned alive does remind us of Aerys very much so.
shareI found her likable in the first few seasons actually but when she crucified the masters and was cold after, she seemed to be getting worse and worse. I also found her acting much better in the first 2 seasons as well.
She might turn out like the Mad King in the end, we will see but I really see it.
IMHO the real problem with Dany is that she's supposed to be this ruthless conqueror... but also a likeable or admirable person. The show writers don't seem to realize that a person can't really be both, no matter how many slaves she frees or wise legal decisions she makes.
In both the books and the show, she's the least realistic least believable character - filled with qyalities dredged up from GRRM's previous reading and sexual fantasies. He of all people should never let his libido make any story decisions.