MovieChat Forums > Crossing Over (2009) Discussion > Sean Penn Quits Because of the way the M...

Sean Penn Quits Because of the way the Movie Portrays Iranians.


Looks like Sean Penn has asked to be removed from the film because of the inaccurate way Iranians were portrayed. I have not seen it but it sounds like there is an honor killing involved. As an Iranian I can tell you that honor killing is NOT a prominent part of our culture. It is mostly an Arabic cultural tradition and happens in countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I see how Penn would find a storyline with a prominent Iranian family performing an honor killing completely implausible and I applaud him for standing up to the powers that be.

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Yes, they made up the honor killing and Iranians have nothing to do with it and vice versa.

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[deleted]

bronzescag is right on all three counts.

The murder in the movie was NOT an "honor killing". I despise that phrase. It's merely justifying murder through religion & pride and all that non-sense. This was pure anger.

ANYWHERE "honor killings" happen is pretty frequent I must say. Think about it. They do not happen (and are not tolerated) the the vast majority of the civilized world. Any place that it is happening on a consistant basis has a much higher frequency of the incident than most of the world's biggest countries.

Penn had an obligation to the production. Nobody forced him to agree to star in the picture. That was HIS decision, and he knew damn well what was happening in the story. To cut himself after taking the role is selfish. Someone else could have played the part. Now it's gone from the whole film.

The truth is, "honor killings" do happen. Are they a correct representation of an entire people? Of course not. And I don't think anybody would come under that impression after seeing the film. Penn should have known that, and if he doesn't, then don't commit to a role that contributes to the plot of the film.

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No, they do not happen. And if they do, it's very rare, in remote areas beyond government control, and among extremely inpoverished and uneducated people. You just want to believe that "those people over there" are "all crazy" because you've been force-fed that since the cradle. It's like me saying all Americans cheat on their spouses and leave a girl after getting her pregnant because "I read it on some website!". Try actually MEETING and sitting with an Iranian for a while (I promise you'll walk away unscathed!) before you blanket judge them. You might learn something. Weird, huh?

Sean Penn, I applaud you! You have enough talent, money, and honors to not have to compromise to anyone for anything. Good vigilance on your part!

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[deleted]

@ bronzescag:

So you think that when someone in US or Europe kills his wife/sister due to the same reasons it should be called a "family drama" or a "tragic accident" and that it is more acceptable and less horrifying than when it is labled "honor killing".

BTW I'm yet to see an "Arab" gun down his fellow students and his teachers for no reason. But then again it might be due to the fact that they don't go to school and don't have any education like you ;)

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[deleted]

In the original film the murder was explicitly an honor killing. After protests by an Iranian-American organization, the film was cut to obscure the honor motive and portray the killing as a more typical relationship murder.

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As for the person that said honor killing was only an arabic thing and not an iranian..you are wrong..I have read a lot of stories of honor killings in Iran...aswell as the arabic world.. I am an arab..and even though it has happened it has no play on the islamic religion, killing in any form other than in war or self-defence is a great sin in Islam...I have heard of honor killing in China and Japan aswell as India...so it was not only done by muslims...its a horrible excuse of killing and I really hope it has stopped...

arm..leg..im yours!

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Well of course they don't gun them down. They blow them up.




Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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"Well of course they don't gun them down. They blow them up."

The same way you yanks do? P.S. I think it's great that you use religion as the be-all-and-end-all of all the bad things in the world while conveniently forgetting that the biggest recipient of US aid in the Middle East is Israel - itself a theocracy where only jews have right of property and land. The war in the Middle East is down to control of resources, not religion - you'd still be fighting with them even if both of you were atheists(BTW, didn't you fight a war not recently with with the Vietnamese communists - who tend to be atheists?).

P.P.S. For someone who terms others as 'moronic crybabys', you sure do a lot of whinging yourself.....

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No, we drop bombs and they strap bombs to themselves. I don't use religion as anything. I'm just a realist instead of a *beep* Last time I checked I didn't make the US foreign policies. I don't support Israel or Saudi Arabia. The government sucks their balls not the rest of us. Communists are as dogmatic as other religions. Marxist communism might as well be a religion.The only difference is the communist doctrine tries to create heaven on earth. Every war is about control of resources and Sean Penn is still a crybaby. Those poor Iranians that don't do so called honor killings. Unrealistic liberal shrew.





Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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I don't support Israel or Saudi Arabia. The government sucks their balls not the rest of us.


Oh but wait a second, you live in a democratic country dont you? hell you americans are so proud of the fact that your country is not a dictatorship like the countries in the middle-east. but doesnt a democratic country mean that the govt is obliged to do as its people want? well??? either your country isnt democratic or you americans do suck israeli and saudi balls.

so how do those salty balls taste? must be fun sucking balls while you stick $6b each up Israels ass huh?

intl. law?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

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Well being in a democracy means you don't always get what you want. Enough people vote in certain politicians and they follow their own policies.Nobody puts up a fight because either the jews are bringing up holocaust sympathy.Also AIPAC sucking off the politicians. Or Saudi Arabia selling US all that oil.





Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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[deleted]

The Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education notes that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student....................In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."[177] The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system.[178][179]..........................

The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices[180] notes that: * "Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding."
* "Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."
* "In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."
* "Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."
* "Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service".
* "According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
* "The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report [...] stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices[182] notes that:

* "According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

In case you didnt know what "democracy" means:::

there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes. The first principle is that all members of the society (citizens) have equal access to power and the second that all members (citizens) enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties.[4][5][6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy




intl. law?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

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[deleted]

yes, they can own land but not everywhere. and if they should own land in east jerusalem then their houses are torn down because the israeli govt says they were built without a permit!

funny but all those illegal homes built in the west bank are rarely torn down!!

in other words whoever says that israel is a democratic country is a fool!!

intl. law?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

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well you have a black president dont you?

i can tell you that foreigner living in germany these days gets all the benefits that a german gets (unemployment money/free education/social services etc). only thing he cannot do is vote.

so there are countries that do treat their minorities with the same respect as their majority.

i am soooo sick and tired of this lie that "israel is the only democratic country in the middle-east" when it clearly isnt!!!!!

thats the point that i am trying to make!!!

intl. law?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

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Stop trying to denigrate Israel and imply that Arab-Israelis are somehow living a sub-standard life. Although there are legitimate grievances among Arab-Israelis regarding social inequalities, there are also valid concerns held among Jewish Israelis regarding their non-Jewish fellow citizens. It is a complex subject with a complex history and more-than-likely complex future. The last thing anyone who actually cares about the problems needs is another dime-a-dozen Israel-hating internet fool who looks for any opportunity to ramble on about this evil or that evil and post up wikipedia links as if he is some sort of scholar. Build up your own life before denigrating the lives of others.

"World, this is my blood, it's red, just like yours... so *love me*!"

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Israel isn't a theocracy in the mainstream understanding of the word nor does it deny property rights to non-Jewish citizens. I'm not sure why you're stating this lies, either it is non-malicious ignorance or intentional deceit: either way, you're wrong.

Although Israel does have some religious elements to its laws, i.e. Yom Kippur is a national day off (among other jewish holidays), Kosher food is served at all government functions, etc, it is by no-means some hardcore theocracy. I've been to Israel for extended periods of time, and it's very secular. A westerner will not feel very out of place in Israel, aside from unavoidable cultural differences like language, food, etc... but not in regards to archaic religious laws as are found in several Arabic Muslim countries.

"World, this is my blood, it's red, just like yours... so *love me*!"

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A rule of thumb: whenever someone posts something derogatory on these boards about certain Hollywood 'liberals' or Arabs or the Middle East in general, I like to bait them with various sounding points like 'democracy', or 'Israel' or '9/11 conspiracy Theories' - if they respond back with SEVERAL posts (all sounding the same even though they come from different posters) then I know they're from the same source who are just posting negative stuff about he star or the movie's subject in general. It's no secret that certain people are paid to troll on these boards - right, AtheistRevolution / Clarks087 / bronzescag / whateveryournamereally is?

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It's no secret that certain people are paid to troll on these boards

You're joking, right? Just who is it paying for people to post on these boards, and for what reason? If I am to believe your logic, political organizations are funding one person to post propaganda on IMDB message boards using several accounts? Your ability to weed out trolls using "various sounding points" is remarkable though, you're truly making this world a better place.

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I actually wish people cared enough about this film to pay for "trolls." That's really funny!

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"I actually wish people cared enough about this film to pay for "trolls." That's really funny!"

Oh really? For someone who obviously 'doesn't' care about this movie you certainly seem to post a lot on these boards about it!

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Best reply i ever read on imdb....

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'a minority of Muslims and Arabs who do commit honor killings'

For your information, I believe the killing in question was executed by an Iranian character.

Iranians are NOT Arabs.

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[deleted]

What? Honor killings has happen in all western european countries, Great Britain, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden etc. Google it and you will find several stories from each country.

Story from Spiegel
"
The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor. Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html



Turkey, libanon, syria and jordan all have high numbers in honor killing.

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Chimera-5 says:


"No, they do not happen. And if they do, it's very rare, in remote areas beyond government control, and among extremely inpoverished and uneducated people."

Hmmm...they do not happen but they do. Pretty shaky argument.




Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?

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Watched this movie in class today and some muslim students walked out because they said that they found the honour killing offensive, as it is not real in any way.

When I see them on Thursday I am going to bring my highscool yearbook and show the 2 girls who were killed by their brothers and fathers in my school and the three other Canadian girls, one sent back home and killed, and the other killed miles away from their home. All for dating either outside their race, or for dating period.

The movie doesn't suggest that honor killings are indicitive all Iranians, but one single case of something that does in fact occur.

Denying it vehemently is only acceptable if people are suggesting all Iranian and other muslims make a practice of murdering their own in the name on honour.
So cliche, but seize the day.
You can't make up or get back the time you've lost.

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[deleted]

First of all, I wrote my post before I new that the production had agreed to change the scene to blur the lines of what the killing was about. So, you're probably right to say that the final version had a scene that was not an "honor killing."

I don't think you really understand where I'm coming from on this. The media shapes perceptions in North America. That's a fact. Some people take the time to go beyond what the media feed them about other cultures, but sadly many do not. I say this as a first generation immigrant, who has been in North America since she was 4 years old. Growing up, I hardly ever saw anything positive about my country portrayed in the media. We were terrorists, barbarians that beat their wives and hate America. That image is far from the one I know and love about the generous, vibrant people of my country. Never once did I see any images that combated the negative one. If you walked a day in my shoes you would know that many people take what they see in the media and think it's indicative of an entire nation. Imagine, as an American, if you had to walk around in a new environment and get asked serious questions like, "Are all American men serial killers?" Imagine if that was all they new about you.

When I heard this film was coming out, I was thought to myself here we go again. But, what angered me most was that it WAS unrealistic. What I said before was that honor killing is Not a PROMINENT cultural practice. In no way was I denying that it does happen. One is one too many. No one is trying to cover anything up. And I will admit that the government of Iran has committed horrible atrocities against women. But, no matter how much we would like to believe that the this type of portrayal (if it were left as an honor killing) is just indicative of one families story, that is not reality. It's a clear fantasy. There is a big difference between several instances of violence and an accepted cultural practice (I'm writing specifically about honor killing). When there are few to no images of a particular minority in Film and Television and nearly all of them are negative, if someone has never seen or met a person from that culture before they will believe what they see to be inductive of the culture not one specific family.

I don't think I see the implications of that portrayal the way you do. Cuz you know what, the next day I'm the one who is going to have to do damage control. Imagine if that was one of the only images of Americans on TV and you had to explain that it happens but most Americans would never tolerate that. However, the image is still stuck in those peoples minds and now you have to do even more summersaults than you were doing before to dispel the stereotype.

Even with the father character being a Khomeini supporter, it's still not something that is an accurate portrayal. If it was a poor shepherd from a rural community with little to no education, then yes, that would be plausible.

It gets exhausting, and maybe if there were more positive images out there things like this wouldn't evoke such frustration. If there were a plethora of images out there that showed the spectrum and was overall accurate, this wouldn't matter so much to us.

As for Sean Penn, I have a feeling now that the rumors of him pulling out for the reasons stated above have been greatly exaggerated. I agree that he should have know what he was getting into and shouldn't have agreed to the film and then backed out at the last minute.

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Sean Penn is a moronic political correct,crybaby.






Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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If you actually saw the film you'd see the person who commits the murder does it on his own mad whim after breaking in on on his sister having sex with her older lover. The scene CLEARLY defines this as only the man's actions when they show him in a moment of pause and decision, and flash cuts of his sister aggressively having sex depict the trigger that sends him into a crime of passion...the OTHER MEMBERS OF THE IRANIAN FAMILY WERE ASHAMED! They only wanted to shame the sister into leaving her older lover- the brother acted against the family's wishes by taking a gun. Again the film clearly- through editing and storytelling- defines the murderous act as a man acting alone. Truly it did not feel like an honour killing. The family protects the brother under a shroud of shame- once again defined with the storytelling on screen.

Sean Penn shouldn't have jumped the gun so fast...this film could have been viewed the way it was intended if he only detached his ego and examined the film as a regular viewer of the intended audience. The only time I heard "honour killing" defined in relation to this film was on these message boards and by Penn's statements.

RF

"This is me...ya anonymous jerks"
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=PREVALENTMIND

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Interesting. There are honour killins in the Arab world and Honour killings in the world east of Iran (Pakistan/Afghanistan) but they don't happen in Iran?

Maybe not as predominant but they happen indeed.

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This thing could happen to any conservative family of any race (does ANY conservative family enjoy seeing their young daughters dating older, married men who only hold relations in seedy motel rooms?)...that's what I took from that scene not that "Iranians kill each other for honour"...stupid, needless bitching spawned by Penn's mouth and added to by ignorant posters who haven't seen the film's scene for what it is: a murder mystery subplot.

Sean Penn isnt god...he's a talented actor as well as an insecure, dogfaced prick of a human being to pretty much everyone he encounters outside his 'superfriend' circle. He treats the world like his playground, offering no apologies, and he balances out that act by throwing press these "Im a citizen of the world" comments. He'll blow smoke in your face in public, allergy free areas, eat lunch, and then complain about North Korea...

Talented no doubt- but the man needs to get knocked down a peg or two off this high horse he's riding, before the weight of his overblown ego breaks the animal's legs.

RF

"This is me...ya anonymous jerks"
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=PREVALENTMIND

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[deleted]

Sean Penn married Madonna. In judging his character, what else needs to be said? Well, he physically abused her (arrested for felony domestic assault which was pleaded down to a misdemeanor) and he was arrested for violently beating a photographer. Not really a nice guy is the best compliment I could give him.

Regardless of his immense success in Hollywood (his paternal grandparents being Jewish didn't hurt), Penn is a loser of a human being. The roles that he chooses to play show just how far he is bent. What a prick.

Take away religions, governments, nations, parties, customs, cultures...strip away everything associated with mankind and what do you have left: evil people doing evil things with love only of SELF.

You can blame whatever you want but it is man's inherent selfishness that is at the root of all problems. Honor? What a joke!

Sean Penn should never be asked to play a role in a movie again...his career SHOULD BE finished. Alas, the tripe powers that be, he'll be made a hero.

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"...he'll be made a hero." Only to ignorant Iranians who havent seen the film at all. Everyone who has actually seen the thing would simply think Penn acted like a spoiled child. I sure do...he signs up to play an evil border jumper who murders a mother in the desert- BUT just because an Iranian kills an Iranian in one scene- the film is too irresponsible and unrealistically portrayed for him to be a part of...

....W...T...F...?!?

...and then Weinstein blows the chump and gives him whatever the hell he asks for- for nothing. Absolutely nothing...

Ford has an AMAZING performance in this, absolutely INCREDIBLE, and Penn took it away from him...the same year he wins for Milk...there is no karma in this case.

RF

"This is me...ya anonymous jerks"
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=PREVALENTMIND

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Agree with you about Penn's behavior being reprehensible - but his part was actually that of a good hearted border patrol agent who actually shows compassion toward a Mexican immigrant during a heavy rain storm. The twist is that she turns out to be a ghost (she was murdered by someone smuggling her over) and her actual body is buried under his border patrol truck, which her apparition (but we don't know it at the time) leads him to by causing his truck to swerve off a trail and roll down a ravine. You can see the director's storyboards for his original opening on his facebook page. Just look up Wayne Kramer Film Director on Facebook.

I also agree about Ford having an amazing performance. I'm in shock that Weinstein just tossed this movie in the garbage like a toy that he damaged by pulling one of its wheels off and then losing interest in it.

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Thanks for that explanation bronzescag. I was under the impression that Penn was originally the border patrol officer who discovers the body of Alice Braga's character. In the weeks since, however, I've read Kramer state several times that the Penn segment acted as a metaphysical wraparound. I really hope this material is made available one day.

I'll never understand Weinstein. Nearly 1/3 of the films produced by his company are shelved for months, sometimes years, and then re-cut and distributed half assed. In early 2009 alone "Killshot", "Fanboys", and "All The Boys Love Mandy Lane (Great f--king movie) received the "Crossing Over" treatment. These films cost millions to produce and/or distribute, and then aren't given a chance to profit. Can anyone please explain how these guys are still in business?

Hell, "Crossing Over" and "Killshot" starred Sean Penn and Mickey Rourke, who gave 2008's two most acclaimed onscreen performances. Am I to believe that their post Oscar leverage still isn't enough to secure a proper release?

Luckily for cinema fans, Harvey continues to fully support the efforts of artists such as Rob Zombie and the "Scary Movie" guys. Thanks for that Harv.

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[deleted]

Very interesting. Apart from giving the film a necessary wraparound, that material most certainly would have given the character the proper closure she deserved. Regardless, her brief time onscreen absolutely devastated me, particularly that final *look* as the doors on the bus closed. Great performance.

Unfortunately now I'm even more anxious to see the proper cut of the film now, and that could take a very long time. As far I know, ol' Harv has never gone back and released the intended cut of a film he butchered. He is a greedy pig, however, so if enough of us write to him showing interest (or threatening violence ), he might see an opportunity to profit and wise up.

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Wow Sean Penn is offended because this movie portrays his friends the terrorists in a negative light. His father also supported communists a while ago. Being traitors and supporting the enemies seem to be an inherited trait in that family.

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There is so many things wrong with this post that I can barely contain myself, but I'll stick to just the most obvious of the moronic things said/implied. You mentioned Sean Penn being offended by his friends "the terrorists's" portrayal? What exactly defines them as terrorists? Being Iranian? It's this sort of idiotic generalizations that make the rest of us sane, rational Americans look like the slobbering, backwoods, rednecks that the rest of the world perceives us as. Why don't you do the world a favor and look into castration as well as having your hands/tongue removed so the rest of us can live happily in peace from your hate mongering.

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You have something against people living in the woods? That was a really racist comment.

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Only the inbred, knuckle dragging variety.

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[deleted]

I did not read this entire post, because it is too long, but can someone tell me who Sean Penn's character was supposed to be, before they cut his scenes?

Meow.
I just love kitties!

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hahahahaha man I was reading all the posts in a very serious mood until I got to yours...THAT WAS PRICELESS...SOMETHING AGAINST PPL LIVING IN THE WOOODS HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA im gonna quote u on that one on my facebook..I JUST HAVE TO! lol

arm..leg..im yours!

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The murderous practise of "honour" killing is not very widespread at all in Iranian culture but it doesn go on...but that is more to do with the Islamic domination of Iran than actual native Iranian culture.

I think it's overly sensitive to quit a movie because of an honour killing involving Iranians when it does happen sometimes. Few people are stupid enough to watch a movie and walk away thinking honour killing is a big part of Iranian culture - Iranians are generally far more open minded than their neighbours thanks to having a strong culture before Islam invaded Iran...Sean Penn is a bit of an idiot anyway.

Honour killings occur in Turkish, Arabic, Indian, Afghan, Pakistani and Bangladeshi cultures and are not always limited to Muslims either...it is true most cases occur in Muslim families but there are cases involving Sikhs and Hindus sometimes too.

Ultimately it is a sick and disgusting and utterly cowardly crime. Anyone who comes to the west and does this should be deported along with every male relative so their women can be free and safe.

N.

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Which part was he going to play? Or was his storyline scrapped altogether?

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