The Kiss - Persuasion (2008) Discussion

[–] ladylavende 17 years ago

I liked the kiss scene; the hesitation was sweet. However, would Anne and Wentworth honestly have started kissing in the street? Come on, I don't think that would have been very appropriate in Austen's era. Oh, well, I'll suspend my beliefs for this excellent adaptation of my second favorite Austen novel.

Mildred! He's at it again. http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=8093247

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[–] Unwanted_Birdtamer 17 years ago

I don't know, I didn't find kissing on the street out of character so much as resetting her nephew's collarbone and carrying on a conversation with Mary, Charles and Mr Musgrove while clad only in her shift and corset.

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

I do think kissing on the street was out of character for ALL Austen's ladies, not just Anne Eliot. I'm sure engaged couples kissed prior to marriage - just not in the streets.

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[–] thbryn 17 years ago

I just saw the replay two min's ago in Boston: not good. I don't like the new "Masterpiece" theme either, though I'm fine with Gillian.

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[–] Unwanted_Birdtamer 17 years ago

I don't deny that it probably was; but personally I think the other was a far bigger faux pas than the kissing on the street thing.

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.

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[–] angelofvic 17 years ago

In addition, I didn't find it particularly believable. Women don't initiate the first kiss, ESPECIALLY not in Regency England.

It didn't ruin the movie for me, though.

The movie pretty much did that on its own -- I found it flat compared to the 1995 version. Maybe part of that is I already knew the story because I'd seen that one. The 1995 version was a good 13 minutes longer, and built up A LOT more dramatic tension. This 2007 version cut out all the waiting and drama and misinformation. Rather poor filmmaking, IMO, at least what of it they showed in the U.S. -- evidently they cut out 8 minutes of it!!! Write to PBS and complain about the cuts -- more than 9% of the runtime! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/feedback/index.html

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[–] helloeeze 17 years ago

I was disappointed in this adaptation. I had a little trouble following all the characters, even though I read the book a couple years ago. But most distracting was the "hair" which I absolutely couldn't take my eyes off of because of how awful it was. She didn't seem worthy of Wentworth. I just couldn't buy it. I would like to see it again and see if my reaction is different. Not enough chemistry between the two for me.

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[–] lori-cakes 17 years ago

That kiss was horrible. The way she kept opening her mouth really ruined. I also did not find it believable that a man as goodlooking as Wentworth would marry a dowdy female like that. So the actress is no beauty queen, but please they could have done something with her hair to make her look better. Maybe Hollywood as brainwashed me, but I think she should have looked a little better.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] karenl227 17 years ago

I agree that Hawkins is a fine actress but I don't think lack of vanity is the issue when an audience bursts out laughing at what is supposed to be a very touching scene. I certainly don't blame Hawkins.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] MysticYoYo 17 years ago

Women don't initiate the first kiss, ESPECIALLY not in Edwardian England.

Agreed, but I think you are referring to the Regency period of England if you are referring to the era in which Persuasion took place.

(75+ years before the Edwardian era, a kiss on the streets of Regency England would be even more scandalous! *fans self to avoid a swoon*)

----------
"I miss Dwight. Congratulations, Universe. You win."

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] galaxychick 16 years ago

by - angelofvic on Mon Jan 14 2008 22:20:08: I didn't find it particularly believable. Women don't initiate the first kiss, ESPECIALLY not in Regency England.

The use of the word especially indicates a belief that women never initiate the first kiss. Such a sexist and out-dated belief and very, very inaccurate. Women initiate the first kiss all the time in the movies and in real life. What's more, there is nothing wrong with doing so.

To be fair, Angelofvic's statement was specifically about Regency era women. But I must say that stating that about Regency era women is quite a presumptuous blanket statement. So are we to deduce that there has NEVER been a well born young lady of the Regency era to take the initiation of kissing EVER? To say that would be to totally misunderstand human nature. Established books of etiquettes and code of conducts have never stopped folks (whatever the era and background) to do the forbidden.

Of course the next argument could be that well bred young ladies of Jane Austen era would never openly admit of doing the forbidden. But hey. Jane was writing about human beings wasn't she? And perhaps the readers in her era would frown at her describing such etiquette infractions in her books, which is maybe why she didn’t include any in them. But thank God modern adaptations can push the envelope a bit.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] galaxychick 16 years ago

I disagree. It's not written that way.

*Going back to read initial comment*

Hmm! See what you mean! I did not read it right the first time around.

Well I guess some just don't know what they are missing by NOT initiating ever.

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[–] liscarkat 17 years ago

I didn't see anything wrong with the kiss itself, but the approach was unecessarily protracted. I finally shouted at the screen: "Just do it!"

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[–] coquiero 17 years ago

I came to this board today EXPRESSLY to complain about that kiss!!! Why on earth would any director agree to a kiss like that? I can see you want to show awkward inexperience. I'm fine with that.

That kiss, however, was just grotesque. That's the moment we all wait for at the end, and it left me with an icky, icky feeling.

I found the production mediocre on the whole, and that kiss just really ruined it for me. Not to mention the fact that PBS cut 14 minutes out of it.

I hope this PBS Austen series gets better....

Happiness is not a potato. -Charlotte Bronte

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[–] lori-cakes 17 years ago

Honestly it ruined the whole movie for me. That and the awful hair on her.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

And the desecration of the Letter.

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[–] mikyway 17 years ago

What about the "Bath marathon"??!! Title should have been PERSPIRATION!

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

Have you seen the Youtube video of Anne running to the tune of Chariots of Fire?

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[–] mikyway 17 years ago

oh God no! I haven't !! Must be hilarious!!!!!!!!

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wwZsyVm01Dw

Don't drink anything while watching.

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[–] mikyway 17 years ago

LMAO!!!!!!! that was really fantastic!! thank you for showing me!!!!!!!!!

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[–] hortkt 17 years ago

crack ... me ... up... and not with laughter.
random thoughts:
* NO one notices her. If I walk down the street and see someone tearing along I at least look at them. No one in these Bath scenes seems to be in the same temporal/spatial plane as Anne. What the ---?
* What a misuse of the actors' skills and the audience's time. [GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR!]
* She rams into Musgrove and Wentworth and doesn't apologize. Again, what the ---?
* Show us a *shortened* build-up to this kiss, WITHOUT the actual kiss - in other words, tease us! -- and give us the much more rewarding, appropriate kiss from the final scene. [Regardless of whether Wentworth could have taken over the lease of Kellynch, that was a romantic scene.]
* This film could have been so worth the while if the producers had hired a respectful, sensitive screenwriter and director who had actually read and thought about the story and characters and gave them their due.
As it is, I like certain elements but, as a whole ... it's so perplexing a melange.

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[–] susitnasweetheart 8 years ago

Oh wow that sounds amazing! Too bad I missed it by a few years - the video got taken down. :(

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[–] oypoodle 17 years ago

Yes, I laughed because the kiss was so bad. If he was going to wait so long, he should've at least reached up and wiped the tear off her cheek. I think that would've been appropriate instead of letting her gasp for air like a fish.

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[–] angelofvic 17 years ago

You know, I just watched the kiss again a few times, and here's what I think:

It was a good idea that didn't get executed totally correctly.

Prolonging a kiss or the anticipation of a kiss is a very reliable romantic device, and it was ingenious to use it at this moment. The thing is, they should have done a few more takes, and then chosen a better one, one that focussed more on the romantic anticipation and less on Hawkins' gaping mouth. That's also a cinematographic problem as well as perhaps imperfect acting in the particular take we saw. I guess they figured, hey, she's out of breath, gasping, and there's a tear rolling down Hawkins' cheek -- this is the best we're going to get, folks, that's a wrap!

I just wished they'd filmed it a few more times a few more ways, tear or no tear, and they would have come up with a better image.

BTW, they also cut away from the kiss way too quickly to Anne's desk and diary. Leave a tender moment alone a bit!

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[–] oypoodle 17 years ago

I think a good way for them to prolong the kiss would've been to have them walk (not run, we've had enough of that) into her house and do it in private instead of the street. If it had to be on the street, I agree, more takes and at a different angle. Or a scary thought - what if they did have more takes and this was the best one!!!

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[–] jane_bront 17 years ago

I'm in the minority that liked the kiss - for the most part. It's just that it looked like Wentworth was holding back purposefully. Was he punishing her a little? I don't think that was the intention meant to be conveyed but since I couldn't see his face it seemed like she was alone in her vulnerability there. But once he began to participate I thought the kiss was sweetly passionate.

To err is human; to forgive is divine.
VJMJ forever!

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[–] karenl227 17 years ago

Punishing her - yes, that's been my view all along, and that's just such a wrong conclusion to come to. IF that was the director's intent -- that Wentworth is STILL angry at Anne -- then shame on him.

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[–] angelofvic 17 years ago

If you watch it again, you'll see the look of rapture on his face (which you probably missed, watching Anne's yearning face). I do agree that upon first viewing it seems that he is perhaps deliberately prolonging the pause, but really it's not so -- it's just the directors' way of creating a lengthy tender moment, a very common element in romantic films

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

As Julie noted, the audience in her large viewing laughed out loud at the scene - so I guess it didn't work for that group.

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[–] angelofvic 17 years ago

Klorentz, you seem to have taken a dislike to me and have taken it upon yourself to denigrate what I say, with comments that don't even address or acknowledge what I have written. Whatever the issue being discussed, if you are going to respond I would personally appreciate, if you are willing to do so, a thoughtful response to what I've written, rather than a sarcastic dismissal.

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[–] karenl227 17 years ago

I don't understand your post. How I can denigrate what you say without addressing or acknowledging what you have written?

In the instant post, I had read your comment about the kiss scene being romantic and I responded quite specifically to that statement. The fact that an audience laughed out loud at what was intended to be a romantic moment is not a comment about you but about the scene under discussion. I stated that the scene certainly did not work as intended for at least that particular group of viewers, which seems to address quite directly what you've written.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Pahayman 17 years ago

I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE LOVE, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER LOL.

YOU CAN'T DIE BEFORE YOU DIE!!!!!!

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] karenl227 17 years ago

Next adaptation, maybe.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] NoSlippers 17 years ago

I'm amazed by this discussion. Consider how you look yourself kissing someone! It's a quite silly look actually...with open mouths and tounges and everything. And for those of you who doesn't inhale air during the moment are bound to choke.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Julie-30 17 years ago

But most people don't stand there for what seems like hours BEFORE the kiss looking like a guppy.

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[–] Miinerva 17 years ago

Wentworth is STILL angry at Anne -- then shame on him.

After seeing it 5+ times now, while I wouldn't say angry, he certainly was making it clear that she was going to have to make things right. The kiss, included.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

Isn't that a terrible thing to think at what should be a very sweet moment?

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] sparkle4513 17 years ago

Interestingly enough, no. He has been reported to say that his on-screen kiss with Sally Hawkins was the hottest one to date - that he actually found himself enjoying it far too much.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

Same emotion watered down a bit ...which contradicts the Letter entirely.

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[–] v1nig 17 years ago

I think that would've been appropriate instead of letting her gasp for air like a fish.

LOL my sentiments exactly.

Carpe Diem!

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[–] hortkt 17 years ago

re: letting her gasp for air like a fish.

it's not as though he can breathe for her!
and to be fair to Anne, if i had just run a marathon i'd need about an hour to get my breath back, let alone talk or move ... :-)

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[–] Jason_Radley 17 years ago

Although the thwarted lovers never kissed in public in Jane Austen’s celebrated classic, Sally says the kiss is essential in a modern telling of the story.

“I think everyone is desperate for Anne and the captain to kiss. You wouldn’t have seen them kissing in public in Jane Austen’s book, but I think it’s great that it happens because you need that release. It is good that we are telling a classic story in a modern way.

“This adaptation is pretty much loyal to the book, but I think we are allowed a few liberties. Perhaps we need the kiss as a generation. I know if I was watching this at home I would be shouting at the telly for them to kiss.

“Adrian Shergold, the director, left it up to me about the kiss. We did versions when they did kiss and versions when they didn’t, and I didn’t know which they would go with in the final edit.

[...]

The romantic finale to the story, when Captain Wentworth takes Anne in his arms at last, gave Rupert and Sally the perfect excuse to rehearse kissing!

“Jane Austen’s characters wouldn’t kiss in public. That was Sally and me being naughty really,” Rupert says.

“In the script they are just about to kiss, and then they realise where they are and they can’t. We thought the way to get that was to just about kiss, and hold it and then actually kiss, but cut the film before we actually kiss.

“But when the producers saw the scene in the rushes they decided the kiss was so good, and we did it so well, they put it in the film. It was never meant to be there. It was just us using it as an excuse to have a kiss,” he jokes.

http://www.royalcrescentbath.com/persuasion.htm

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[–] Julie-30 17 years ago

At the NY screening of this movie, Rebecca Eaton of PBS told us an interesting story about the 1995 version.

Apparently, there was not supposed to be a kiss between Anne and Wentworth, just the bit where he takes her arm and walks down the street. But they thought the US audience would demand a kiss so they put one in. The Brits liked it so much that they kept it for everyone.

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[–] daktari333 17 years ago

I think of Pride and Prejudice 2005. Americans got the kiss but the Brits didn't, right? Makes me smile, this kiss vs. no kiss controversy. Some people opposed the kiss in North and South (2004), but man, I am glad they put that one in, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

Interesting, that info about both the Persuasion kisses. I am glad they put it in (alas, I'm an American!). It took a little getting used to, though, because at first it struck me as a bit awkward and not wonderfully romantic, what with the gasping and her mouth being more open than I thought should be. Hey, but I got my kiss, and I'm grateful.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

I think it's a bit more complicated than a kiss versus no kiss. In North & South, it's the kiss in a public place (right in front of poor Henry Lennox!) versus the lovely scene in private in the book (I prefer the end of the book). Same with Persuaion 95, again, it's the outdoor kiss, not the fact that they're kissing. In this version, it's so awkward, tortured and unappealing -- preceded by that whole Bath Marathon that made no sense, that I just laughed, which I'm sure was not the desired effect. And I'm American.

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[–] genie-49 17 years ago

Due to that spectacular kiss in North and South, it has now become my #1 most favored film. THAT kiss is the best on screen that I have ever seen. I hate these movies that give you that simple kiss at the end that you have been waiting for......and then the credits roll. I feel so short-changed. The kiss in North and South gives you closure. They carry that scene just long enough so you feel satisfied with the ending. It fills you up. And I loved the fact that it was out in public for all the world to see. It showed total absolute commitment which is what you waited 4 hours for from Margaret.

Gosh....if Persuasion didn't have that kiss on the street OR SOMEWHERE, I would have thrown something at the tv. No kiss in Persuasion would be like having a very intimate few moments with your love and just when bells were going to go off, someone knocks on the door. Gads......!!

No love story should ever end without a good kiss, is my opinion.

Florida in July, you find it only takes two fingers to steer your car

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

Given what Thornton thought of Margaret when he thought she was meeting a man at night at the railway station, the public kiss seemed terribly out of character for both of them. I found myself embarrassed for the real John Thornton and Margaret Hale while watching the scene.

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[–] genie-49 17 years ago

Given what Thornton thought of Margaret when he thought she was meeting a man at night at the railway station, the public kiss seemed terribly out of character for both of them. I found myself embarrassed for the real John Thornton and Margaret Hale while watching the scene.

The REAL John Thornton???? Not sure what you mean by the REAL John Thornton.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, I won't belabor that point on this Persuasion forum or try to change your mind. But I doubt you will find any takers of that opinion on the North and South board.

Florida in July, you find it only takes two fingers to steer your car

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[–] ifeoma_6 17 years ago

Like you genie I do not want to belabor the point of that lovely lovely kiss at the end of North and South since this is the Persuasion board. But I personally loved the kiss at the end of North and South. As much as I loved the ending in the book, I think most of us did not sit through four hours of a lovely story with so much angst, loss and misunderstanding to have an ending that goes "That man", "That woman". No sirreee Bob. Thank God they did not use the book ending. When I read the book, I got to the end and went, "That's it?". Much as I would have liked parts of the book ending to have been incorporated, I am VERY happy with the train station kiss, whether it was appropriate or not.

And as to whether or not Americans like a certain ending or not, I do not see why it matters. Its a matter of personal preference not nationality. I am American but my TV/Movie habits are 80% UK/European TV and I am sure many period movie fans watch a fair amount of UK TV as well.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

The real John Thornton is the character created by Mrs. Gaskell, as is the real Margaret Hale.

What most people think of the N&S kiss on imdb is as irrelevant to me as the trashing most people on this board, Pemberley, and Austenblog have given to this entire Persuasion film, let alone one kiss, is to you.

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[–] coiragrigione 17 years ago

I love both of those kisses, the one in 'North and South' and the the one in 'Persuasion '07'. Both were satisfying endings to beautiful romances.

I think everyone has to find it in their own heart whether or not a screen kiss is regarded 'in character'. There is no one defnitive, conclusive, correct take on that. People always have and always will overstep propriety. It's hardwired into human nature. Love has moved people to do wonderful things so I'd like to believe that it has indeed the power to make people oblivious to their surroundings for a moment of bliss, now as much as two hundred years ago.

For me, a good kiss needs a solid build-up of the romantic tension, a slowly developed pent-up passion. And when I then like and empathise with both love birds, and the moment itself feels real and authentic, then the kiss is wonderfully satisfying and thrilling. Both N&S and P'07 pass with flying colours in my book. As a matter of fact, they rank in my top ten favourite screen kisses.

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

Yes, I fully understand your view that there is no right or wrong or good or bad. Everything is relative.

I think it's pretty clear that I am expressing my opinion without having to preface every single sentence with IMO.

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[–] Jason_Radley 17 years ago

http://www.afunnystuff.com/forumpics/notagain.jpg

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[–] klorentz 17 years ago

OMG!

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[–] Julie-30 17 years ago

Post of the day!

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[–] marzmello 17 years ago

“In the script they are just about to kiss, and then they realise where they are and they can’t. We thought the way to get that was to just about kiss, and hold it and then actually kiss, but cut the film before we actually kiss."

Reading that I wonder if the outtakes would be in the dvd. I sure hope so lol. If the camera had just panned out a bit and got Wentworth in the shot, it would be so much better.

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[–] daniel_taylor_16 17 years ago

I thought it was the most wonderful and adorable scene in the movie, you could sense her passion and how frightened she was. And those quivering lovely lips waiting and hoping for the kiss was agony. Well, I would have kissed her too. Also I think the female lead did excellent.

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[–] ultra_mafic 16 years ago

I quite liked the kiss. But I can understand why people would not. To me it symbolized their relationship -- long and drawn out, lots of agonizing waiting, etc. Thought it was great.

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[–] klorentz 16 years ago

Interesting analogy. Too bad everything leading up to it was laugh out loud funny. Not the reaction Jane Austen was going for, I think.

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[–] jacqueline_n 16 years ago

The kiss did start off a bit awkward, but once Wentworth kissed Anne it was better. He just sort of closed the space between them.

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[–] splattiam 16 years ago

I have seen some criticism, but I really liked this version of Anne. She reminded me of someone that I would be friends with, and she was very likeable. In the 1995 version, I don't feel like we got to know Anne as well as the '07 version. She smiled more in this version, and seemed to be more herself when Wentworth wasn't around. I did notice that her mouth was open in some scenes, but I thought it was because she wanted to say more, but she was too timid to follow through.

One thing I thought about, and this is more of a book issue, but after 7 years, and not much talk, I am surprised that they get along so well and kiss so soon. The kiss at the end was far better, and more appropriate, as I am sure they have had time to get to know each other again. But then again, not many people in the Regency era actually knew each other before being engaged anyway...

About the fish mouth kiss. I noticed how much taller Wentworth was than Anne, and I thought, "Oh boy, how are they going to do this?". Then when he didn't bend down, and she was left hanging there, I got frustrated. The kiss was pretty nice as kisses go, but I much preferred the one in the last scene.

Everything's going to change. Have a cluckity-cluck-cluck day, Hugo!

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[–] klorentz 16 years ago

"not many people in the Regency era actually knew each other before being engaged anyway"

I've never heard this before. Where did you learn this? It certainly doesn't seem to be the case in Austen's books.

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[–] splattiam 16 years ago

I guess the way I said that didn't make sense, sorry. What I meant was that they didn't date for years the way that people do now. I recall what Charlotte Lucas said, something about it is good to know as little as possible (about their fiancee), they can get to know them after they are married. I am no expert on regency period customs though.

It just seemed like in the movie they had not seen each other in 7 years, then they spent months avoiding each other, just spoke to each other when necessary, then they were engaged. I am not criticizing the movie though, I loved it, you could tell they were in love. I was just pointing something out.

Everything's going to change. Have a cluckity-cluck-cluck day, Hugo!

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[–] Julie-30 16 years ago

That's true, they hadn't seen each other in 7+ years. But they had known each other before that.

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[–] klorentz 16 years ago

Charlotte's comment does not represent the norm in Regency courtship rituals. Quite the opposite. It worked out for Charlotte because she had very low expectations, but clearly Lizzy does not follow her advice - and Lizzy is our heroine.

As for how people "dated", no not dating, but courting. No movies or television, just a lot of talking to each other. I think people got to know each other quite well.

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[–] splattiam 16 years ago

You may be right, what you say makes sense. There were people who married for money or other practical reasons, like Charlotte, and I assume they would not know each other very well(arranged and intended marriages as well-though they are the exception).

Anyway, my point was that it had been 7 years, and a person can change a lot in 7 years. I guess for Captain Wentworth and and Anne that didn't make a difference.

Everything's going to change. Have a cluckity-cluck-cluck day, Hugo!

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[–] klorentz 16 years ago

You have a good point about change. Are you basing your opinion here on this film or on the book? I think the book gives the impression that they spent enough time together to be sure they were the same people they loved years ago.

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