MovieChat Forums > Se, jie (2007) Discussion > What the English subtitles completely mi...

What the English subtitles completely missed.....

posted 17 years ago by dont_b_so_BBC
39 replies | jump to latest

After deliberately looking for the English subtitles when I watch Lust Caution again, I realized that almost every mention of Chongqing, aka Chungking, that I caught was simply subtitled as "the resistance".

Historically, Chongqing was the inland "reserve" capital of China under the KMT/ Nationalist government where they fell back to after their original captial, Nanjing/ Nanking, was taken by the Japanese. Someone with IMDB Pro accounts should try to add this to the FAQ or trivia for IMDB's Lust Caution entry.

I apologize to everyone I have offended in my earlier posts where I pointed out it was obvious that the resistance was working for the KMT/ Nationalist government! I had no idea that this fact was completely obliterated in the subtitles (as far as I've noticed)!

This movie is full of homages and references and hardly any (conventional)exposition, so it is a pity that the English subtitles sometimes make little or no effort to translate or hint at the historical/ cultural context-- though I can't be sure how bad this is since I only glanced at the English subtitles from time to time. :P

*SPOILERS*

In the Chinese dialog of the movie:

1) Kuang mentions that he has had help from Chongqing after HK;

2) Old Wu mentions that he works for Chongqing; and

3) Mr Yee mentions breaking the Chongqing cells and capturing Chongqing elements, etc..

So there is actually no doubt in the Chinese "version" of the movie that the resistance was working for the KMT/ Nationalist government and that it was part of Mr Yee's job to hunt them down.

[–] michelletisseyre 17 years ago

Sing Yung, this is fascinating. Thank you for seting the reord straight. You are absolutely right that these omissions from the subtitles lead one to assume that Kuang and Old Wu were members of the Communist resistance movement (and I remember finding it strange that the Chinese government would be so supportive of the film). I also was a little annoyed by (what I took to be) the inference that the Chinese resistence, being Communist, would necessarily have been pretty nasty people. The Chungking references bypass all that predictable post-hoc ideological baggage, which makes that aspect of the story much more straightforward, i.e. War is about nothing but survival, at any cost, and it turns humans into animals, regardless what side they"re on.

[–] EmperorKagato 17 years ago

You're right.

There are two resistance forces that eventually became one:

KMT
Communists (Early form of the People's Republic)

[–] usmansaber 17 years ago

hmmm

well, I got this movie last night and was surprised to see that there were no english subtitles :O

i Have the 2 cd version and would appreciate if someone sent the link for the subtitles ........

[–] ib011f9545i 17 years ago

I did not know that the subtitles did not reflect the exact reference to the resistance.
But I don't think it matters,it was obvious to me that the "resistance" were working for the KMT government and not the Communists.
Did they not wave Chinese republic/sunrise flags at the play?

I studied a little of Chinese history of this period so could follow the plot.
Perhaps people who know nothing of Chinese or World War 11 Asian history would have been confused by the plot?
It is confusing after all,Japan attacked China but was not at war with Britain or America until December 1941.
Japan was not at war with Russia until August 1945.

There were several puppet governments which were dominated by the Japanese.
There was also a civil war going on between the KMT and the communists.

The film would have been improved by having more historical refrences,you could have had news reports playing on the radio for example?

[–] mustard_man_999 17 years ago

just to add even more confusion to the mix, nazi germany was an ally of nationalist china, and provided a significant amount of aid to china against japan before ww2 began in europe, so much so that, most Chinese soldiers at the time referred to their rifles as 'Mao se (Mauser) rifles'

hence also the german style helmuts the chinese soldiers were wearing on the trucks

XD

[–] nikolai_cheng 17 years ago

I am really confused by what you wrote: "Nazi Germany was an ally of Nationalist China, and provided..."

Very probably, you mistake Soviet Union for Nazi Germany??

In 1936 Nationalists(KMT) and Chinese Communists began to cooperate to fight against Japanese invasion, and Soviet Union would be the only substantial foreign support for China in that time. Enmity between KMT and Soviet Union was obvious, but Stalin wanted to grow Communists' strength.

I know nothing about any German assistance to China...

[–] dont_b_so_BBC 17 years ago

I think the issue here is the difference between "German" assistance to the KMT and "NAZI Germany" assistance. The KMT had dealings with the Germans, but WHEN they turned into "Nazi Germany" depends on how you define "Nazi Germany". WHEN is also an important issue for The KMT and Communist co-operation against the Japanese invasion-- which went on-and-off, on-and-off, because Chiang Kai Shek broke the alliance whenever he thought he had a chance to take out the Communists (Communist threat >>> Japanese threat).

In any case, you must understand the term "ally" very loosely in war-times, because neither the Soviet Union, Germany, the KMT or the Communists were really "pals" with each other-- and neither the "Allies" nor the "Axis" were one big happy family. That's why you have odd incidents like Shanghai sheltering Jewish refugees from Germany in the 1930s and a Nazi party member sheltering Nanjing residents from the Japanese rampage in 1937.

[–] championofcathay 17 years ago

Nazi Germany did make arms trades with Nationalist China until the beginning of WWII. Not only that, Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Wei-kuo was sent to Germany to study at their war academy and actually served as a panzer commander in the Wehrmacht.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_%281911%E2%80%931941%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Wei-kuo

[–] noformstyle 16 years ago

Communist was busy fighting the KMT, KMT was fighting at two front at the time.
Communist was mainly operating at the southwestern China at that time.

[–] jnagarya-1 16 years ago

The "Communists" were fighting against BOTH the KMT and Japan. But doubtless there were times when the former two grudgingly cooperated against the Japanese.

[–] nikolai_cheng 17 years ago

SingYung, of course you are right about the incompleteness of the English subtitles. But there's no translation that misses nothing. After translating to another language, something is always lost.

The context may be obvious and easy to understand for Eastern Asians, but not for foreigners who are not familiar of the historic background. For European/American audience, reading subtitles is not that easy (they prefer foreign films to be dubbed). Exact but lengthy translation would not help audience to watch the film. So a little simplification was made.

It's always the case. The problem is not only with the translation, but it's subtitles for audience to read in a short time.

[–] dont_b_so_BBC 17 years ago

Yes-- But given the fact that the movie keeps the historical background fairly simple (China vs Japan, or patriots vs collaborators), why do some westerners "naturally" assumed the resistance to be "communist"? Anyone want to tell me why the resistance looked or sounded like "communists" to you?

I mean, I would understand the misunderstanding if there were clues or issues that were introduced in the movie, but there were none-- yet it seems to me that some people were (unconsciously) trying to fit the movie into whatever (preconceived) notion/images of they have of mid-20th century China.

[–] nikolai_cheng 17 years ago

no... I didn't assume the resistance to be communists, and I don't think the film suggests that...

[–] zwot 17 years ago

given the fact that the movie keeps the historical background fairly simple (China vs Japan, or patriots vs collaborators), why do some westerners "naturally" assumed the resistance to be "communist"?

I would say that it's because a lot of westerners don't really know much about China's history or politics. The average westerner would not be able to tell you who Chiang Kai-Shek or the Kuomintang are. They only know Chairman Mao, and that China is a communist country. They don't know how long ago China became Communist or what preceded Communism in China. In fact, many westerners think Taiwan is as separate from China as Japan or Korea are separate from China.

[–] ma222 16 years ago

<I>For European/American audience, reading subtitles is not that easy (they prefer foreign films to be dubbed).</I>

Not THIS American. I prefer subtitles, original language audio. It's not hard to read subtitles; anyone who says it is reads below standard.

Be careful making generalizations; there are 300 million people in the US.

Perhaps because I studied Chinese history in college, it was clear to me that the resistance were KMT. I guess most wouldn't know that.

[–] iseepinkelefants 16 years ago

I prefer subs too (I'm American). I'm one of those annoying people that puts them on on films I can understand. Don't know why I guess I just love to read so much I like them being at the bottom of the screen. I can't stand dubbing. The actor should at least have to courtesy to have their voice heard.

Didn't notice the mix up with the parties. Wouldn't most people who paid attention be able to conclude that?

"Look lady I don't come down to where you work and slap the d!ck out of your mouth".

[–] rosiepink 17 years ago

Thanks for you comments. I'm in the US and watched the movie with subtitles and was wondering whether the resistance were Nationalists or Communists. That really confused me because when the theater students do a play, Ibsen's play is criticized and called "bourgeois". I started thinking that Kuang Yu Min is a communist but is working for Old Wu, who is a Nationalist, maybe because they both hate the Japanese occupiers. Old Wu complains that a weapons shipment is missing and that the resistance and Japan do not have it.

All I could conclude is that either Kuang Yu Min or Mr. Yee have stolen the weapons shipment. However, at the end of the movie, Mr. Yee is told that several papers from his office have been removed. So I concluded that Mr. Yee is a double agent (who switches sides when he learns that the US has entered the war) while Kuang Yu Min was an idealistic amateur spy blindly following orders.

[–] championofcathay 17 years ago

You changed your name to Don't be so CNN? Sweeeet.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] PVarjak 16 years ago

Since I just watched it and no longer have the DVD, I can't check; but I do think that they make reference to the fact that the resistance is Nationalist and affiliated with the Koumintang (in the subtitled dialogue). I also think they mentioned Chonqing, but I can't claim to have caught what that meant. I know the basic outlines of that period of history, but don't claim to be an expert; so I don't think I picked up all that much that a reasonably close non-Mandarin speaker wouldn't also have picked up. In any event, I don't think it substantively harms the concept of the film, since they do make clear with the captions that the 'enemy' is the COLLABORATIONIST Chinese government. Obviously more than one group would not have been in favor of collaborating with the Japanese occupation.

That said, I'm sure there are MANY subtle elements that I miss in not understanding Mandarin (or whatever other dialects were used). I know that with French films, the subtitles are also usually pretty weak. It's just the nature of watching a great film in a non-native language. We can't all speak every major language. Also, the fact that dialogue was such a major part of the film, it was tough to both read the subtitles and appreciate/absorb the film. I often used the fastest 'slow motion' to read the subtitles and watch the film. That's pretty rare for me. Even the German 'Lives of Others' (and I know next to no German) was easily watchable with subtitles. 'Lust Caution' was more difficult for me.