MovieChat Forums > Joshua (2007) Discussion > Joshua explained (spoilers!!)

Joshua explained (spoilers!!)

posted 16 years ago by santera9
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SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

OK here is my interpretation of the movie after watching and browsing through reviews and other posts:

1: Joshua is a sociopath. My theory is his sociopathic tendencies may have been exacerbated about from attachment disorder at his birth with his mother Abby. We are given clues about this when Joshua asks his parents how he was as a baby and receives some stilted and smoothed over responses that indicate he was a very difficult baby indeed. Also, when he watches the video of himself at 8 days old and sees how his mother is falling apart and is being driven nuts by his constant crying, it would seem that Joshua was a very difficult child to bond to and this probably continued through his childhood. His relationship with his parents seems to be distant and "polite", with Abby barely acknowledging him at all. My guess is his parents also knew something was
"different" about Joshua all along as well which completed the circle of no bonding or affection between them. So why did Joshua not start "acting out" until Lilly was born? See 2

2) Joshua probably had no frame of reference to judge the relationship between himself and his parents. Being a sociopath with no "real" emotions he may have accepted the situation as it brought him no disadvantages. Remember, sociopaths strive for a semblance of normality to hide their true natures. And this worked.. until Lilly.. Right away we see the difference between his parents' behavior towards Lilly and the way they act towards him, in the scene where they visit Abby and Lilly in the hospital. Joshua is left standing in the doorway while his parents and baby cuddle on the bed and coo at each other. The parents don't even invite big brother to meet his new little sister.. odd behavior indeed for most families but indicative of the relationship they and Joshua had.. Joshua on the outside always. Then when they get home with the baby, Joshua again sees the differences: Abby is happy and content with the new baby, and his parents and Lilly form the seemingly happy family..without him.. He is again on the outside, playing a (quite lovely) song on the piano all but ignored by all except the nice uncle who comes to play with him...until Abby tells him to stop. Then they proceed to sing Twinkle Star to the baby.. and Joshua expresses his disgust (resentment?) by throwing up.. and then later on playing a dirge-like version of Twinkle Star at his recital. He is unable to explain the difference in attitudes though, until he asks his parents about how he was like as a baby, and gets the stilted answers.. and sees the video tape.. so now he knows.. in his mind his parents don't like him because he was a screaming, difficult baby and now he has to live with an in-his-face demonstration of Joshua vs Lilly in his parents eyes. So I think at this point Joshua's plan to recreate Lilly baby into Joshua baby begins, see 3

3) Joshua begins a campaign of antagonizing Lilly to make her scream like he did, to drive away his mom from Lilly. We don't know exactly how he did this but we do see the abrupt change in Lilly and then Abby (when she is in the doctor's office, she says "Not again" and right away needs to hand the baby to the doc). I think at this point, this is the sole point of his plan. Make his parents not love Lilly like they don't love him (when he says exactly that on the recorded video of him in Lilly's room). He then tries to "provoke" response or love? in parents by a few things: the giving away of ALL his toys, he says he asked Abby who told him it was OK (most mothers/parents would think something was totally wrong with their 9 year old child wanting to get rid of every single one of their toys, but we are left with the impression Abby barely questioned this action of his). Dad makes a token attempt dissuade Joshua from doing this but after a brief conversation throws in the towel and leaves the room.. and this characterizes most of Dad's interactions with Joshua: he makes token efforts at the Dad and Son thing but never spends too much time or really tries delving too deeply with Joshua.. and Abby who ignores him all together. The other scene where he tells Abby he's going out to take his toys to Goodwill and she just lets him out to walk the streets of NYC by himself.. something the good uncle questioned but she blew off because "Joshua's not a normal 9 year old". Another scene, when Abby is deep in depression (but pre-medication) is when her and Dad are in the bedroom and she's trying to pump milk.... Joshua stands in the doorway (again in the doorway but not in the room with them) and leaves saying "I love you Mommy and Daddy" and they just stare in silence.. not a word of "I love you" back. I think at this point Joshua starts to see his plan to make his parents not love Lilly and love him instead backfires and he moves on to 4)

4) Joshua decides Mom is the problem.. after all she is colder and Dad at least tries.. So he starts tampering with Mom's meds.. keeps provoking Lilly into crying fits.. with the intent of sending Mom away.. culminating with the bizarre glass cutting incident and finally with the hide and seek game. I think Josh hopes now he and Dad can be together so he begins on part 5)

5) Get rid of Lilly.. I think he calculated the scene at the museum to get an opportunity to get rid of Lilly in a way that can appear accidental.. pushing her down the stairs. He almost does it but gets interrupted by grandma and Dad (who is now on to Joshua by watching the video). The point where Dad races up the stairs and grabs the baby stroller changes Josh's plans: he knows from that silent glance between them and the way Dad grabs the stroller that Dad knows about him and his plan to stay with Dad is over. He also knows if he gets rid of Dad, Grandma is an unacceptable alternative so he pushes her when Dad turns his back.. maybe also in a power play with Dad to let him know he knows.. And from that point, see 6)

6) Now that Dad's not a viable option, grandma's out of the picture, Joshua begins his campaign to end up with his uncle.. and they way he does that is set up the ruse that Joshua's been physically abused and then to provoke his Dad into the beating at the park.

7) Finally with uncle.. there's still Lilly.. some posters have stated their idea that Joshua wanted to save him AND Lilly but I disagree.. Lilly was never in his picture and I think she's still in danger. Notice his stony silence when uncle exclaims how cute his baby sister is.. and in the song he sings, he explicitly says "you and I together", not "us 3 together". And I think if there is a Joshua 2 : ) he will try to devise ways to get rid of Lilly.. and if uncle makes it known that he now suspects, if not knows.. he will be gotten rid of as well..

[–] casey_choas66 16 years ago

I appreciate the time and thought that the origina poster put into his thinking, bu your analysis completely leaves out the one ey symbol in the entire film which is the Egyptian god of choas. It's this image that brings the ture horror out of the final realization of the film. It's not just that Joshua is evil but that he could think he's doing this for the evolution of society/mankind/whatever.

[–] Boutros_Boutros_Sirhan_Sirhan 16 years ago

That's the Hitler mentality; convincing yourself the havok you wreak is for the good of others.

I think all that was missing from the movie is some sort of mention or something of another child that has had a bad life yet has chosen to act positively. Maybe a walk by a trashy section where one child consoles another in the background (maybe after their shared parent screams at them or hits them, to show they share poor heredity and environment) or something; a contrast to the selfishness of basically everyone in the movie. After all environment and heredity hurt Joshua, but he still knew right from wrong (pretty evident in many ways, one being him hiding his deeds which is something that effects an insanity plea in court) and made his own choices, and that he wasn't doomed from the start.

Great summary though Santera 9, said pretty much everything I thought.

[–] CharlzNine-1 16 years ago

I watched this movie two nights ago and it's haunted me ever since. The acting and story was superb! (Watch any interviews with the boy that played Joshua and you'll see he's a very normal kid - thank god!)

I haven't taken a psychology class in years, but I thought your ideas were very sound. I'm curious, at the end of the film as he's singing that creepy song, what was under the bed? It looked like a latex glove. This is the part of the movie where they show all of his crimes, so he used it for something, right? Also, when the mover was packing his books some pictures fell out that truly revealed what he was really thinking; there was also a book in the box whose cover showed a little boy hanging from what looked like a cliff. I imagined this was the book that Joshua did his research from that ultimately fooled the child psychologist. Anyone know what book that was?

When the dog died, he copied his father's grief in what I thought was an attempt to bond with his father - or was it mock him? Either way, it was creepy. Also did anyone catch that when the psychologist asked to see his guinea pig, he deflected it by asking her if she liked to draw. I'm assuming the guinea pig was already dead at this point.

Someone wrote they thought there was incest between the uncle and the mother. I didn't pick up on that at all. I imagined that since the mother's/uncle's parents weren't in the picture, that's what he was referencing at the end about siblings being a great help. Him coming out to her at some point in their life makes sense, too (someone mentioned that in this string, too). Obviously the brother knew about past "episodes" the mother, his sister, went through. I'm assuming one or both of their parents suffered from this as well.

In some interviews, they talk a great deal about post-partum depression. I figured that she suffered from that, but she must've also suffered from more, right?

I love kids, and I really wanted to just wrap my arms around Joshua - but I really think he needed more than that. Someone wrote there were moments where he could've been saved, but lack of action from his parents made him more this way. I see that, but I think that the dad really did try. I'm not sure why he became so mean and adversarial towards him at the end. I mean I get that he was scared to death for his daughter, after seeing his own mother get killed by his son - but still. That's your kid man! Right?

I just think the moment he confronted Joshua the way he did proved to Joshua that he had the upper hand. He crumbled his own building made of blocks, just like he ultimately crumbled his family. He was definitely filling his role as god of chaos.

Another person in this string of comments mentioned the ending where, after Joshua sings his song, the uncle knows/suspects that Joshua IS guilty. That part is really the part that stuck with me and chilled me to the bone. Joshua is frozen in a smile at the end looking at his uncle. Now I'm not sure if he was actually thinking that his uncle would understand OR he was warning his uncle to "stay in line with the program". Honestly, I can totally see the uncle not going along with it and ending up dead in the future.

Not sure if anyone watches "Dexter", about another sociopath/psychopath. His adoptive father saw Dexter for what he was and instead of shunning him, molded him into a "morally better", socially-acceptable killer. I think that if Joshua were to join the military, or law enforcement, it *might* give him an outlet for his dark side. But I guess I'm still trying to save him. And like the song says, we should be saving ourselves (from him).

Look up the lyrics to the song he sings at the end. The full version is eerily sung by Dave Matthews. The first line is "When I pull the wings off of the fly, The fly never wonders why I did it." Joshua doesn't sing this line and some others. I don't think he was ready to give away that much at the end.

The other comments about society steadily heading towards a more sociopathic mentality, sadly, makes sense. Jeez, we're doomed.

[–] gazerockxsxdxr 16 years ago

this is genius! i didn't pick up on most of this (although i did start watching the movie at the part where joshua decides to give away all his toys, so i guess i really couldn't have). you analyzed it very well.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] przgzr 16 years ago

I was among the first admirers of the original poster, but I have to agree with you as well. As for 2) completely, and in 1) I only wouldn't say that from the beginning Joshua planned to, as you say, "agitate his dad to the point that Brad would beat him in public". It is planning too far in advance, maybe Hal in 2001 could plan that much, but he was a computer, everything was under his control and he had just a few people to care about. Joshua certainly, as you say, "never considered just staying with his dad and getting rid of only Abby and Lilly", but there were too many things that had to happen in the meantime, that could turn the whole situation into another direction. Joshua was intelligent enough to use the opportunity. Even killing Hazel on the stairs couldn't have been planned long time before - how could he know that she would be on the stairs?

[–] homeimp 16 years ago

Brilliant post, Santera. Joshua and Macauley Culkin's character from The Good Son would make a scary team.

[–] clifflin3 15 years ago

I have doubts that Joshua is really a sociopath. I think the family had a really bad case of misunderstanding and miscommunication.

I think the main problem is that everyone treated Joshua as a grown-up. They failed to realize Joshua is just a child prodigy, not an adult. I remember in one instance where the parents send Joshua to do something alone, and uncle Ned said something like "he's just nine." But the parents said something like "he acts nothing like a 9 year old." I think Joshua is mature at certain aspects, but not everything. For example, he obviously don't know much about postpartum, and thought Abbey hates him after seeing the video. Another example is the fact that he thought getting rid of his sister can actually end his torment(which in the right minds of an adult knows that it'll just make his mom and dad even more crazy probably). Nonetheless, Joshua's parents negelected the fact that he is not a real adult and expected him to understand the situation. I think that's why Joshua connected with Ned a lot more. Ned saw Joshua as a nine year old and address his needs (accompaniment, reward, attention...etc).

However, I'm not saying that his family members don't love Joshua. They did stand up for Joshua from time to time. I think they just have problems with handling a child prodigy.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] smuttycat 15 years ago

That's great. I figured the same thing myself and even though I liked the movie, I prefer an ending where all questions are answered.

[–] Lloyd_the_barman 15 years ago

funny people mention the incest aspects. when she kissed her brother after he had shuffled along to sit down and watch joshua perform near the beginning. i remember thinking the kiss being slightly inapropriate.

"KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT BOY IF YOU LIKE THIS JOB!!"

[–] tiani23-1 15 years ago

Thank you for the wonderful breakdown of the film. It greatly added to the viewing of this picture.

[–] SadakoGirl 15 years ago

Agreed, I just resaw this movie on SciFi and really liked this thread.

[–] CognacJacquet 15 years ago

I didn't get to see the whole movie but now I want to! I did think there was something 'off' when Joshua and the uncle were in the bed; the uncle tried to get up to check on the baby but Joshua said something like "No, stay with me like you used to do." I immediately thought 'uh huh, something's not right with that' I think Joshua had an unnatural attachment to his uncle--not sure I believe the uncle molested him though.

[–] SadakoGirl 15 years ago

I thought that was the dad, not the uncle, TurtleGirl?

http://pencilcasebook.blogspot.com/

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] packro 15 years ago

What was the whole deal about the room above the apartment? For some reason it made me think there was some sort of satanic ritual thing going on up there...

And for some odd reason, this kid reminds me of Joshua lol. The way he says it is so totally random. Like the way Joshua kept saying random stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y