MovieChat Forums > Avatar (2009) Discussion > This film needs more hate... so here it ...

This film needs more hate... so here it is.

posted 8 years ago by JustinJackFlash
22 replies | jump to latest

Yeah, there are plenty of other people venting about Avatar, but it is the most successful film ever and we're getting like 15 sequels. So it still needs to be brought down a peg or two. While most detractors seem to focus on the film's cliche'd predictable plot, I don't think this is the film's worst element. That would be the writing and dialogue.

On at least 2 occasions Cameron writes himself into a corner of which the only escape is retardation of the highest order.

Firstly, when Jake first starts exploring Pandora he gets separated from his group and attacked by animals. Then along comes Neytiri, a member of the race he's tasked with infiltrating. The Naavi is it? I can't remember, we'll just call them blue people.

Anyway, the blue people consider all creatures and even plants on their planet of high regard. Higher regard even than people of their own race. Jake is disguised as one of their race. Yet Neytiri kills the creatures and saves Jake. Neytiri clearly doesn't even like Jake, she was even about to kill him not 5 minutes earlier.

'Why did you save me?' Jake asks.

'Yeah, why in the hell did you save him?' I asked.

Why the hell did you save him?' anybody in the audience not distracted by the pretty pretty 3D asked.

Come on now, Jim. This better be good. What does she say? There must be a good reason and we can all get on with enjoying the film.

You all ready for this now? Ok, here it comes.

'Because you have a strong heart.' She replies.

WTF!? I have never cringed more. The most stereotypical, pretentious line ever. James Cameron doesn't even know why she saved him!

You can write this *beep* Jim, but you sure can't say it.

Ok, secondly, and this one's even worse. Much later in the film, after the big battle between humans and blue people, thousands of the blue peeps are dead all because of Jake's betrayal. Or certainly what they perceive in there eyes as a betrayal. He's caused mass genocide. How can he possibly come back from this? How can they forgive him, let him back into the tribe and let us get on with the film? That's a tough one. There's nothing really. I can't think of anything. Can you?

Come on now, Jim. This better be good. What does he do?

You ready? You sure now?

He finds and trains a rather nifty looking dragon.

Yes you heard that right.

That's more or less like the Jews forgiving Hitler because he taught an elaborately groomed poodle how to sit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the most successful film of all time!

[–] Thekeybaldemasterrises 8 years ago

I'll be the first to admit I don't think Avatar is as good as everyone made it out to be. I revisited the film last night and had a much more positive response to it than I did when it first came out. The answers to your questions are, as you say it in the writing. The Navi are pretty much a mirror of Native Americans and how connected they were to the world around them, her telling Jake about his strong heart was most likely one of the highest compliments a warrior could give to another. I'm not saying I know all about Native Americans but that culturally sounds like a positive thing to say. The whole deal with him being accepted back into the tribe even after his betrayal isn't just because he tamed another dragon, it was a dragon that had only been tamed by 5 other navi in the history of their kind. The fact that Jake caught one is one of the most respected things one could do it's about status and respect, not how cool the dragon is.

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

I still feel it's horrible writing. The explanations you give are not news to me. I understand what Cameron was trying to convey. I just refuse to swallow it.

Jake was responsible for mass genocide of their people. There is no way back after that. The dragon is a poor get out clause invented by Cameron to get him out of the conundrum he'd written himself into. Status and respect? Coolness? They're generally the same thing. If Hitler had broken the Guiness World Record for fitting the most peanuts into his belly button, that is something only 1 human being has ever achieved. That is about status and respect. Do you think the Jews would have forgiven him?

"You have a strong heart" is the most cliched line ever written, it doesn't matter where it's from. And why would she consider him a good warrior? Why would she give him such a high compliment? It was her who defeated the animals, he was having his ass handed to him.

Yes the Navi and Native Americans are mystical and spiritual, that does not mean they are retarded. James Cameron doesn't seem to understand the difference. Or he does, he just hopes we don't.

[–] sommdude 8 years ago

Jake was not responsible for killing the Na'vi
They would have attacked HomeTree with or without his help.
In the end he tried to stop them.

I'm a Gunslinger. I deal in hard calibers.

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

He was complicit in it. The Na'vi viewed him as responsible. We the audience might be somewhat in Jake's head and understand his position and motivations, but the Na'vi are not.

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 8 years ago

Jesus. Your grievances are the product of OVERTHINKING.

Neytiri didn't kill Jake and decided to protect him because she thought that's what Eywa wanted. Remember the little seed falling down to stop Neytiri before she can fire the arrow at him??

I guess you need things explained to you a little more simply huh?

"Why didn't you just let your friends kill me?"

"Why save you?"

"Yeah. Why save me?"

"Because my god, Eywa wants you alive."

??? COME ON. That sounds so unnatural, it's awful.

Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

Sorry, dude. I dislike this version even more.

She didn't kill him because of an omen, because of an intervention of God?

"Because my God, Eywa wants you alive" is an awful line. But it's better than "You have a strong heart".

Basically she didn't kill Jake because something spiritual happened. This is bad writing.

And the OVER THINKING thing? In many cases I'd agree with you. A lot of the time a film is just daft fun. If I was applying my grievances to one of those films you would be 100% right. But this brings us to another of Avatar's major issues- It takes itself very seriously.

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 8 years ago

Basically she didn't kill Jake because something spiritual happened. This is bad writing.

WHY? If you hadn't noticed, the Na'vi are a very spiritual people. If Eywa gives Neytiri a sign - any sign, she's going to take it seriously. From that point on, she's watching Jake, trying to figure out what Eywa sees in him. Makes total sense to me.

Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

WHY? If you hadn't noticed, the Na'vi are a very spiritual people.

As I have acknowledged several times above, I am fully aware that the Na'vi are spiritual people. Nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not criticizing the film because they are spiritual, I am criticizing because something spiritual happened.

If you have a film that features a bunch of characters who are Christians, no problem. If God actually comes down and zaps the bad guys that's a little different. You can't take the film seriously.

Even a Sci-Fi film needs to be grounded in some sort of reality.

[–] gerhajdu 8 years ago

My thoughts: a whole bunch of beasts had an alarming sense that the environment is in danger so they attacked the human mercenaries. They felt the mercenaries are the threat, what has to be elimanted from the planet and they attacked them.

"But they knew they f**ed up." James Rolfe as AVGN

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] packro 8 years ago

I saw this film in a fantastic theatre with a huge 2D screen and awesome sound system. When the tree came down, everyone in there was crying. When the ending came and the title came up, everyone stood up and clapped. WTF is wrong with people like you who can't even enjoy a good movie?!

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

I saw this film in a fantastic theatre with a huge 2D screen and awesome sound system. When the tree came down, everyone in there was crying. When the ending came and the title came up, everyone stood up and clapped.

Whoa!! Sounds like you live in Pleasantville, dude.

WTF is wrong with people like you who can't even enjoy a good movie?!

Sorry, we're all cynics here in the UK. If you've ever seen a Mike Leigh film you'd understand :p

[–] VitalSoX 8 years ago

How old are you?

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

I am a stranger on the other end of the internet, so I can be whatever age and whatever type of person your imagination allows. Clearly it would slide in neatly with your viewpoint that you perceive me as an ignorant tweenager, because anyone who criticizes a film of such depth, complexities and maturity as Avatar must be an idiotic, wee tyke. A clueless Pokemon and Underworld enthusiast unable to sit still and indulge the 3 hour glimpse into the soul that is our world's finest construction.

Alas, if you think too hard about this the reality will come crashing down. Would a 14 year old really be able to dissect and analyse a scene the way I have, however much you disagree with it? And do you really think he'd have even heard of Mike Liegh?

Yes, I realise there is a flavour of immaturity to some of my words. But that is only because I'm treating the film with the maturity I believe it deserves.

I apologise that I upset you so deeply by saying some big meanie things about a film so close to your heart. But understand, it is the film I am disrespecting, not you. Some very close friends and family love Avatar, I do not think they are idiots just as I do not think you are an idiot. I myself like some stupid films. Nothing wrong with that. But in Avatar's case it has become the biggest film in history, prompting enough unrelenting sequels to inspire us to claw out our own corneas in a bid for mercy. So it kinda needs to be taken down a peg or two.

[–] angivare 8 years ago

hahahahah...dude! i watched the movie back then in a full packed cinema and i was shaking my head and facepalming scene after scene and i m telling you, i was the only one! everyone else seemed excited/impressed/highly entertained while watching this crap!
In the end......there was a standing ovation! everyone got up and started applauding - cheering for this disgusting cheesefest. I could'nt believe it!

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

Yeah, there's certain things James Cameron is very good at, and some things he is not. It's a shame that recently he's indulging in the latter, while the public encourage him, burying him with their cash and undiluted ass-kissing. With so many Avatar sequels on the horizon and his slow work ethic, that's probably all we're gonna get from him till the day he dies. You've got a lot of facepalming in store :p

In the end......there was a standing ovation! everyone got up and started applauding - cheering for this disgusting cheesefest. I could'nt believe it!

Is it true standing ovations and clapping at the cinema happen a lot in America (If that's where your from)? It's relatively unheard of over here. A little clap now and again maybe, but it's extremely rare.

[–] thumper606 8 years ago

wow - so much hate, are you upset because all the actors and production people who made the film possible, earn more money than you?

lol

I'm a mountain man, and i love mountain women...

[–] JustinJackFlash 8 years ago

And Thumper606 boldly springs to Avatar's defence with courage in his heart, sword at the ready. His love for his blessed, pure, diamond in cinematic form undimmed by the tyranny of the evil OP. As he taps the keyboard with such vehemence he brings to light an interesting theory.

wow - so much hate, are you upset because all the actors and production people who made the film possible, earn more money than you?

But lets just think about this theory for half a second longer. So we're doubling the thought time here.

Being a man of average wage, I would have to hate every commercial film that has ever existed.

On the flipside, your comment suggests you to be an admirer of anyone who earns a ridiculously extensive amount of cash.

Trump fan by any chance?

Well as you dream of indulging in your favourite film with your orange faced hero, sat on human chairs, roaring and laughing as you snort caviar from a dolphins *beep*, quiver at this one unwavering fact:

Avatar sucks :p

[–] thumper606 8 years ago

guess i'll take that as a yes then.

I'm a mountain man, and i love mountain women...

[–] illnagas (457) 5 years ago

Fwiw I stood and applauded after reading your post

[–] strangenstein (683) 5 years ago

Ha! Very well said. As for me, I found Avatar to be anti-American, tree hugger nonsense.

[–] AmeriGirl26 (15100) 5 years ago

I was angrier over the fact that nobody in this film really appreciated what the scientists did. They worked their asses off to try and maintain peace with the tribes, understand them, and learn about the planet so they could figure out how things worked.

The corporation tolerates the Avatar program, until they get impatient about getting their bottom line in, and want faster results. Just another example of spoiled, selfish, nearsighted city people who don't understand what an effort it takes for others to allow them to live in luxury. They want their money, and they want it now!

The dumbass meathead mercs doesn't appreciate what the scientists do, seeing Grace's team as mostly a roadblock to feeding their lust for wanton destruction. They just wanta shoot first and ask questions later. They don't give a flying fuck about building bridges or understanding the environment of Pandora beyond how to kill stuff the fastest.

The Naa'vi are the least appreciative of all. They don't seem to realize just how hard Grace fought to keep them from getting wiped out at the start, they don't seem to care about making friends with a new alien race, they're not interested in learning anything new from the humans, and they really are not grateful for her efforts in diplomacy. All they seem to care about is maintaining their way of life, and keeping the humans away. That is a sign of a stagnant society that will soon break if they keep on being inflexible towards change.

They show more respect for Jake because he's a "warrior," despite the fact that he was trained in the same way as the soldiers who have been shooting at them on and off in the jungle. I mean, it takes months or even years for Grace to build the tribe's trust and make inroads; whereas, they give Jake a free pass on his first day for being "a warrior." So unfair!

Talk about a bunch of ungrateful shits in this movie.