I Kinda pity Earl. Yeah he treats her REALLY poorly, but he does also REALLY love her. I don't think he knows how to love someone, I would be intrigued if something happened to him when he was younger. I know the story is about Jenna, but I think something affected Earl, which affects how he treats her. I think he means well.
shareYeah you are a bit crazy. Earl demonstrates all the characteristics of a controlling abuser. hitting then apologizing; being verbally abusive then apologizing. Manipulating Jenna to say what he wants to hear. Total jerk. The only reason I have any feeling at all for him is that he is so stupid he loses his beautiful and talented wife.
shareYes I definetly understand where you are coming from, but people don't just end up as abusers; something pushes them there. Granted I'm not defending abusers, but I feel Earl had some sad stories of his own to tell, that would perhaps give a different perspective on the character
shareI get what you're saying. I'm always looking for the "behind the scenes" story, so to speak. Yeah, he's f|_|ck!ng NUTS, but what made him that way?
I'm not psycho, just a little loopy.
*~me~*
In a very real sense, I actually do feel rather sorry for Earl. At the end of the movie this man is left totally bereft, but only because he has now lost his power to abuse and dominate others. He is an impotent bully with nobody to push around. Earl has no love for Jenna or Lulu, only for himself. They are his property rather than his family, Earl truly believes that he 'owns' them! Who knows why Earl turned out this way? Was he himself abused as a child? It may very well be that he was. It does not matter. What may or may not have happened to him as a child cannot excuse his conduct as an adult.
Still, in the end it was Jenna who was the bigger person. She turns Earl out of her life, but fails to press charges for theft, battery or rape. After all that he did, Jenna lets him off the hook for crimes that could have seen him jailed for a substantial number of years. Earl may cut a pathetic figure as he is dragged ranting from the hospital, but think how much more pitiful he would look in an 8 x 9 cell being spit-roasted by a pair of hairy-arsed bikers! He has no grounds to complain about his treatment!
It is all up to Earl now. Jenna is not just free from him, he is now free from her! He is no longer trapped by his self-appointed persona of Absolute Ruler of a realm with one single subject. Earl is now just a man. He is now left alone with himself, and he must face the person that he has become. I cannot believe that he will like what he sees. Whether or not he changes what he is is down to him and nobody else. Still, Jenna has given him the chance, and that is a damn sight more that her ever gave her!
The movie had a fairy tale ending where Earl is out of the picture but realistically Jenna would have had a very messy divorce on her hands and might have ended up struggling with some kind of joint custody arrangement or possibly paying alimony for him since she had come into a healthy amount of cash. Or if he had continued to be violent/obsessive she might have had to press charged or brought some kind of restraining order on him.
But I can't feel too sorry for Earl. I am glad the movie tried to paint a more complete picture how abusers function, how they pathetic needy parasites who feel like they have to abuse and control their victims in order to function. In any case Earl hasn't lost much by losing Jenna. He can always find someone else to hurt and demean and control the way he treated Jenna.
Actually something doesn't always push them there. I've known some abusers, mental, emotional, and physical ones, who weren't abused themselves in anyway. They grew up in decent homes with two parents and a good life. When their life doesn't end up exactly like they want through no one's fault but their own, they become abusers. It's not always as complex as people think. Sometimes people want to perfection and when they don't get it they take it out on the nearest person they can blame.
Accidentally hit myself in the nuts. Who do I blame for that? via Tweetie-Nathan Fillion
Though you may be correct, it does not apply to the character of Earl in this movie. He's behaviors are more than typical of a seriously misattuned maternal relationship during infancy and early childhood.
shareThat's a valid point. I will add that 'the surrounding culture' can account for a lot of how people turn out. A man who grows up in a sexist little town will grow up thinking that real men behave like he's behaving. This sexism also explains why Jenna stays with him -- she has been conditioned to think that a woman stays with her man, makes pies as an expression of care etc. etc.
Where this particular story doesn't work so well (compared to a film such as A Walk On The Moon, which is genuinely set in an early era), this film is set in a sort of weird never-time. This town features a lot of 1950s symbols, such as the anachronistic nurse's uniform, and the way the community gathers around the diner. But it's obviously set around 2006 -- the town has ultrasounds, for instance. We might be more forgiving of this couple and their backstories if the film were genuinely set in an earlier time... though only if we were understanding of typical gender dynamics of that era, I suppose. Even the wife in A Walk On The Moon fails to garner empathy with a wide viewership, failing to see how trapped she is, even in a marriage which looks pretty good to outsiders.
This sense of anachronism vis-à-vis the cars, 'phones and such is quite deliberate. The film is a modern-day fairy-story and so there are many, many intentional anachronisms. This is to convey a 'once upon a time' feel to the audience. 'Waitress' is NOT intended to be a realistic slice-of-life from 21st century America. It is more like the bizarre police-state of 'Brazil', which openly declares it's setting as 'somewhere in the 20th century'.
As for your other point, I regret to say that even today many women DO regard a brutal man as a 'real' man, and will stand by him on the grounds that he may be an *beep* but at least he's HER *beep* Believe me, I live in pretty nice area of West London, but my own home is situated in a pretty rough 'project' with pistol shots in the night, dirty needles underfoot and 13-year old crack-whores on the corner.
In such an environment, many women feel that they would rather have a man who sorts out problems with the neighbours via a base-ball bat rather than calling in an official mediator or filing a restraining order. Apart from that, in my neighbourhood the snitch is regarded as worse than a child-molester! What woman wants to shack up with someone who runs to the LAW to settle things? She'd never be able to show her face in public again!
If that means she has to take a few beltings herself, well, it just comes with the territory...
I know the anachronisms are deliberate. I'm saying 'it doesn't work so well.'
As for the rest of your points, that would have to be the worst case of mansplaining I've seen in a long while.
Fair point about the anachronisms, I misunderstood you. Personally, I think they work fine, but interpretations of a text will differ from person to person.
As to your other comment. I'm only reporting what I have observed in the streets around me. Perhaps your own experience of UK social housing and it's residents is different to mine, and I am obliged to respect that. Still, I was once called a 'weakling and loser' by a woman who I refrained from striking after she gave me a mouthful of abuse and threats. She later took up with a local drug-dealer. Women like her are only are small minority in the population as a whole, but they DO exist!
For the record, I believe that the women who associate with bullies and hard-men for 'protection' are very foolish. Eventually they find themselves trapped in an abusive and life-threatening situation - and they find it very hard to break free. You can't domesticate a mad dog no matter how often you rub his belly!
On average, two British women a week are murdered by a partner or ex-partner.
He needs serious counseling!
I work as a domestic violence counselor, and yes there is definitely trauma in Earl's background. Most abusive partners (whether male or female) statistically have abandonment issues with their father. They do not feel complete without a partner and their sense of self is completely dependent upon that partner. Because they are afraid of being abandoned by the person who brings them their sense of purpose in life, they feel the need to control that person. Often that control becomes abuse, naturally.
Henry Kissinger once said that power was 'the ultimate aphrodisiac'. Power is atractive. People either want to possess it for themselves, or land a powerful partner and so possess it by proxy. This can sometimes have very negative results. There are young women who chase after the local 'bad boys' because they perceive that these men will somehow protect them from an unsafe world. More often than not, they end up being abused. I know personally of woman who seek out men that they regard as being 'strong', and so end up being abused by a whole string of different partners. Oddly enough, these women regard men who are not abusive as being 'weak'.
Most abusive men don't really have a lot going for them in their lives. Either they are currently in a situation in which they feel powerless, or they have been in such a situation in the past and have no desire to repeat the experience. A man who feels powerless will endevour to exercise power wherever and whenever he can. This can range from being the petty tyrant of a Deputy Assistant Under-Manager who enforces every tiny regulation to the letter, to the thug who beats, rapes and bullies his pregnant wife. It's just two ends of the same railroad track. Earl is certainly carrying a lot of baggage. I would not be surprised if he himself was abused as a child himself. However, this in no way excuses his behaviour.
For the record, I was brought up in an extremely abusive household. Both my mother and father were themselves subjected to severe abuse as children. My father was both alcholic and deeply paranoid. The first thing that he did after their honeymoon was to go through my mother's belongings and destroy every photograph, letter or postcard that did not feature him. His violent assaults on mother and myself were a frequent occurance in the family home. In turn, my mother was abusive towatds me. Interestingly, though my father was more violent towards me than my mother was, I could expect my mother to be abusive more often. I guess crap rolls downhill!
Oddly enough, though I detest all forms of domestic abuse and am a committed feminist. I also enjoy 'power-games' in my private life. If I were asked what my favourite fantasy was, I would simply pull out a coin and flip it. If the coin came down 'heads', it would be Michelle Pfeiffer with the whip and PVC catsuit from 'Batman Returns'. If the coin came down 'tails', it would be Nicole Kidman in the collar and chain from 'Dogville'.
Either way I win!
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You can't love someone you don't respect or see as an equal. He hit her, controlled her actions and tried to deny her of the relationship she should have had with her baby (prior to the birth).
share[deleted]
Yes, I only meant that she actually stood up to him afterwards but wow! can you imagine giving birth and seconds later, you're told not to love the baby too much?!
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owenrcarpenter wrote:
I know personally of woman who seek out men that they regard as being 'strong', and so end up being abused by a whole string of different partners. Oddly enough, these women regard men who are not abusive as being 'weak'.
Wow! Ain't that the truth. I've had exactly the same experience. I once dated a woman who, on about our fifth or sixth date, confided to me that she'd been married three times and that each of her husbands had beaten her. I dropped her like a hot rock. That was really difficult for me because, by a wide margin, she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen, much less had in my arms.
Now that I'm much older I've come to realize that real women simply want real men. It's our culture and media that confuse women into thinking that violent men are strong and non-violent men are weak. Real strength doesn't come from being physically imposing, it comes from conviction and courage. Real men who have real strength are not fearsome, they are confident: they know what is honorable, and they have the conviction and the courage to do what is honorable.
About Doctor Pomatter in the film: To all the women who would desire him because he's a 'sensitive guy' I say, Get a girlfriend. Don't expect a real man to be your best friend. Expect a real man to be loyal, honest, and forthright - in short, all the things that Doctor Pomatter is not. If you want a sensitive person to whom you can confide your innermost feelings, seriously: Get a girlfriend. By that I don't mean that real men should be insensitive or that real men don't know how to comfort a woman. I mean that no woman should expect any man to understand her in the way that another woman will. Expect a real man to love you and to support you, don't expect him to understand what it is to be a woman to the extent that he takes care of your needs without you having to express your needs. That's simply not realistic and it's not genuine. Any man who claims he can do it is a fraud and any woman who expects it is a fool.
Interested in collaborative work on a new type of film rating system? Contact me
I Kinda pity Earl. Yeah he treats her REALLY poorly, but he does also REALLY love her. I don't think he knows how to love someone, I would be intrigued if something happened to him when he was younger. I know the story is about Jenna, but I think something affected Earl, which affects how he treats her. I think he means well.
Jeremy Sisto is amazing. At first it was hard to accept that he was playing such a monster of a character, because I only want to think good things about him. But, it didn't take long for me to detest Earl and everything he represented, whether he looked like Jeremy Sisto or not. He is such a good actor.
If anyone out there is interested, Jeremy Sisto is currently a regular in 'Law and Order' playing Detective Cyrus Lupo. I'm afraid that I don't watch the series or any of it's spin offs - British or American - on principle. In early 2007 'Law and Order' used the Adrienne Shelly murder as the premise for the highly-rated episode 'Melting Pot'. This episode was screened and syndicated more than a year before her killer was brought before a court, and - as the case was resolved with a plea-bargain rather than a trial - it is quite possible that the episode endangered his successful prosecution.
That said, I have heard nothing but good reports about the quality of Sisto's work on 'Law and Order', where he is now beginning his third season. If you appreciate a good horor movie, I can also personally recommend 'Wrong Turn' in which he starred with Eliza Dushku. Jeremy Sisto should be congratulated for his great personal courage and professional integriy in so convincingly playing a worthless turd like Earl, and I greatly look forward to seeing him in future productions.
I didn't feel sorry for him but I did keep hearing "Rolling with the homies" in my head whenever I saw him.
shareI'm sorry, OuchDontSpankSoHard, but that reference goes way, WAY over my head! Still, I did some checking and Jeremy Sisto did work with Adrienne Shelly once before on the acclaimed 2000 indie film 'Dead Dog', which also featured the late, great Issac Hayes. I have not seen this movie as yet, but for some reason the disbtributors currently feel it necessary to market it as a horror flick, while I understand that nothing could be further from the truth.
shareI didn't feel sorry for him but I did keep hearing "Rolling with the homies" in my head whenever I saw him.
No wonder women end up in abusive relationships You don't normally beat the things you love. If he can control himself out and with others, he can with her.
Only those with no valid argument pick holes in people's spelling and grammar.
earl didn't love jenna. he loved controlling jenna because he had no control over his own life.
but i agree with you--something happened in his childhood to make him that way. but with that said, he was an adult and knew right and wrong and was conscious of his actions and their effects on others. it was just easier for him to control jenna than for him to get his own act together.
I agree. He did not love Jenna. He s3xualized his misattuned relationship with his mother and acted it out with Jenna. She's often placed in the roll of "comforting" him with words he demands to hear, as one would a child. Granted, he's most likely completely incapable of loving a woman as a woman. These things don't just arise out of thin air. There's a history behind it. In a way, he's been scr3wed, as he never gained the proper tools in life to interact with the rest of the world on an adult level.
At the same time, Jenna perpetuated his behavior by not setting and enforcing boundaries, as any good parent should. When she did, it came in the form of "get out of my life!", which will only perpetuate any of his ongoing issues.
Earl is a child in this movie.
jasonedward, great analysis of earl and very well said.
good point about jenna being partly to blame by not enforcing boundaries. we train people ourselves how to treat us by allowing behaviors that erode our self-respect and self-esteem just like jenna did.
Actually we, as viewers, are not really giving enough background on Earl to determine why he is so abusive to Jenna. Also Jenna is his wife, not his mother, so setting boundaries is very different. Lastly, I dare people to try and set boundaries on someone who puts them down and beats the up.
Good luck with that.
I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask I have to let you have it
wearewating, did you mean we as viewers were not given enough information or we aren't giving earl credit for a possibly unfortunate background which may or may not have been his fault? i'm not sure which one you intended with the wording of your reply.
there is a boundary for someone who beats you up and puts you down. it's called getting the hell out of there. hard to do? yes. impossible? no.
GIVEN
Never said it was impossible, but seriously how about you try it?
People knock Jenna like she could have simply walked away at any given moment. Or as if she brought this on herself. Or she enjoyed it in some way.
Jenna was trying to leave the entire movie. This wasn't some spur of the moment decision. Remember when Earl found the money she hid? And believe me the longer someone is in a relationship like the the more difficult it becomes. Giving birth to her daughter and realizing just how much she loved her is what finally gave her to strength she truly needed no matter what else happened to get away from Earl. Some people never get as lucky as Jenna.
I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask I have to let you have it
wearewating, you seem to have some preconceived notion that i know nothing of what i type just because my opinion differs from yours.
also, who said jenna enjoyed her mistreatment from earl? i sure didn't.
yes, jenna loved her daughter and that gave her strength, but that big, fat check from joe paved the road for her to walk away.
anyway, best wishes to you.
She told Earl to leave before opening the card and finding the check.
Actually I my only preconceived notion of you, is that maybe you needed to pay a little more attention to the movie.
Have you read this thread or a few of the others on here? Plenty of people have no clue about Jenna's life and plenty have flat out said she liked/deserved it.
Merely addressing all points in one post.
anyway, best wishes to you
I always appreciate when someone says this to me after bringing up the whole "just because I have a different opinion" thing, it's usually meant as a kiss-off.
I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask I have to let you have it
yes, she did kick earl to the curb before opening the card from joe. i was only bringing out the fact that her path to freedom was made much easier unlike most others' paths to freedom.
i have read the other posts and don't agree with several points. jenna did not enjoy that treatment. she felt trapped. but, i still maintain my original point that we train others early on how to treat us when we let little red flags go unchecked. little things snowball. i'm sure earl started out with minor annoyances that jenna brushed off as "it's nothing" or "he'll change." then by the time she wanted to say something/do something he had full control of her through FEAR until the fear of not protecting her child from earl became stronger than her own fear of him.
a quote from jane austen's emma is applicable here--"i always deserve the best treatment because i never put up with any other."
best wishes.
Maintain away, no one is stopping you.
I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask I have to let you have it
I felt bad for him too although I hated him as well. I feel like he was too stupid and very uneducated to know what was ok and what wasn't. He was pushing away the best thing that ever happened to him and he had no idea.
Try reading this: (It's not about love with abusers)
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/emotional/domestic-abuse-batter ed-woman
I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask I have to let you have it
He's a cruel person, and I shouldn't feel sorry for him because my mother was abused by my father, but... I do. Not sure why.
Your penis... It's kind of nice. Too bad you're attached to it.