Do you think that he knew that what he was doing was wrong? I mean he wanted to prove that everyone can become evil under the proper circumstances. I mean he made Harvey Dent (Gotham's White Knight) almost a child killer. So he was right that everyone can become evil under the right circumstances. So do you think he was evil or did he feel he was doing the right thing? What do you think?
shareIt's more complex than that. I think he was helping Batman to end the organized crime in Gotham. Even If he had an extreme anarchist ideology he doesn't kill any civilian in all the film, just criminals, cops and lawyers ( and the vigilante dressed as Batman), he Also destroys the money of the Mob and tries to force the civilians to kill all the arrested prisoners of the other boat, giving them the moral advantage to do It.
He Also hated all forms of authority, but I still think his mission was helping Batman to clean the city, and that's the reason Bruce spares his Life in he end.
I think categorising lawyers, and even cops, as "civilians" is an interesting distinction to make. I see what you mean, I suppose, in that cops and lawyers are involved in the fight against the criminal element.
But I don't think Joker was trying to help Batman. If his goal was to purge the mob, why would he make corrupting/killing Harvey Dent a main objective? He wasn't a political anarchist, he was more of a true anarchist, just reveling in chaos.
I don't think he had "motivations" like that; he plotted, but he wasn't actually lying when he said he wasn't a "schemer." He just has no real endgame other than madness and mayhem.
Because he was against any form of authority and against the state, so he attacks its symbols (the commissioner, the judge, the mayor and the district attorney), then destroys the idea of safety (the hospital) and forces people to fight for the Life of their loved ones ( blackmailing with Killing colin creese), and finally forcing them to kill the criminals in the other boat.
Meanwhile he Also Burns all the Mob money, purguing the organized crime in a way neither Batman neither the police could have never achieved.
I see your point, but I guess I just see the Joker as more chaotic than that.
He didn't respect authority, but where we diverge is that I don't think he was contemplating the meaning of that or deliberately trying to annihilate it. Frankly, I don't think he was trying to get the "ordinary" citizens to blow up the criminals so that the criminals would be eliminated, I think he was trying to corrupt more people and bring nihilistic despair to Gotham. He sought entropy, if anything.
Joker is like a nihilist and a Nietzche-type superman got together. He just does whatever because he doesn't see how he would be confined by rationality or morality.
If he just wanted mayhem he would have made a mass murder of civilians or something like that, much more simple, but no, he was fighting against the Mob, in fact that's the overall theme of Nolan trilogy and all the characters in It (Bruce Wayne, Gordon, Ra's al ghul, Harvey Dent, The Joker and Bane) were trying to destroy the crime in Gotham.
shareI think he more follows impulse, but yeah, I think shattering society was his goal, he just wouldn't have had fun trying it all at once. He might have realized that if he grabbed an arsenal and started shooting it'd give him a day or two of manic destruction, but if he could corrupt and collapse the fibres of Gotham's society, he could create a more "satisfying" chaos.
If he wanted to destroy the mob, why did he want to corrupt Harvey Dent? Why did he want to antagonize Batman? Why did he want to fight cops like Gordon who were becoming major thorns in the side of organized crime?
He was helping Gordon and the cops, don't you remember that robbing the Mob banks was the thing that allowed to arrest them in the first place?
He doesn't try to kill Batman neither Gordon, but as he was anarchist he attacks the symbols of the state ( principally Harvey Dent) because he wants to remember people that the state doesn't protect them and he wants people to take the war against crime in their own hands ( that's the reason he makes the boat thing)
He did not do that for the people, that was quite clear. I think he created chaos because it creates opportunities for himself.
Gotham's most powerful gangs would not have even looked at him, but because of batman, they have given him a seat at the table, so he was not really against batman, more likely to use the opportunity and all the green lights the criminal underworld given him to create more chaos.
For the joker Gotham's gangs are the establishment, without chaos he would not stand a chance, and as soon as he killed batman it is over, they would have killed him next.
If he's attacking symbols of the state, he isn't "anti-mob" as his primary motivator. If he is attacking symbols of the state, why wouldn't he attack police like Gordon? If he doesn't attack Gordon because Gordon is targeting the mob, why would he hit Harvey and Rachel?
He does the thing with the boats, too. After they don't blow each other up, Joker is going to blast them both, which undercuts any "point" about the citizens taking the law into their own hands. He doesn't want to make some big, philosophical point; he wants carnage. He doesn't want to push citizens to altruistic violence, he wants to corrupt and destroy.
Oh, and he blows up a hospital. I don't think the hospital was a front for mob activity.
I think like any criminal he wanted to prove other people are no better.
In the end everyone is the hero in their own story, the joker is no exception.
More the former, but I don't think "evil" was his goal in his head.
Frankly, I don't think he had any motivation at all. He just did whatever for any reason he felt like. He lied throughout the movie (the scar stories) but I think he was more-or-less telling the truth when he told Harvey Dent that he's not one of the "schemers".
While he crafted intricate plans to execute anarchic objectives, I don't think he cared what the outcome was. He didn't want to "accomplish" anything.
So, yeah, basically just evil for evil's sake. But at his own core, I think the Joker just doesn't self-reflect. He isn't lying awake at night contemplating morality or thinking anything in-depth. He obviously is intelligent, but I think his brain goes, "Hey, let's corrupt Harvey Dent!" and he sets about doing exactly that. "Hey, let's antagonise that Batman fella!" and he pals up with the mob and rigs up boats with bombs.
You know what I realized? And tell me if I have a point. I think that after he saw that the two boats didn't blow each other up, and he would have blown them both up if Batman wasn't there to knock the detonator out of his hands, he was evil. Because he saw that the people didn't become killers, and he still tried to blow them all up. So this proves that he was evil and he enjoyed hurting people. What do you think? He tried to prove that everyone can become killers under the proper circumstances but since he was proven wrong, he tried to blow them up. So that's evil according to my definition of evil.
shareThat's an evil action, for sure. It also shows clearly that he was never going in for any kind of idealistic terrorism where he was trying to get society to just see the "truth" or something, he just wanted to hurt people and sew seeds of chaos. He liked messing with their heads.
His ideal outcome was that the citizens would blast the criminals from the face of the earth. If that had happened, I don't think he'd have detonated the other ship, but only because he could then immediately go to work on sewing discord by making more homemade videos about how evil Gotham's people are when the chips are down. This would maximize the impact of that moment. Of course, he'd be back to planting bombs the next day...
The joker thrives in chaos. It is not that he is an anarchist, it is that anarchy serves him better, I think that is the reason he did what he did, it is mostly self serving.
shareExactly.
shareExactly. And he was evil after all because when he saw that the two boats didn't blow each other up, he tried to blow them up himself. He just wanted to create a society without laws where everyone (including him) can get away with anything.
shareWell, he kind of had to, he needed to show people the price of not doing the "right" thing. So the next time when similar situations arose they would know better to push the button.
shareHe was psychotic.
shareGeneral Zod represents Lucifer before he was cast out of heaven, and the Joker represents Satan after he was cast out of heaven. Zod wants to establish order on his terms and to have everyone kneel down to him in worship. The Joker wants to destroy other people’s plans and show how terrible they are inside.
That's what psychopaths like to do, especially the more delusional and idealistic ones. He wanted to prove that no one was better than him so he could normalize his immoral and chaotic behavior as the standard. He knew exactly what he was doing and fully accepted it. While not completely petty to the core, the Joker just wanted to prove that his own methods were the right way of living in the world for his own personal gain. Unfortunately, he failed to consider that there are people can never stop giving up their morals no matter how hard he tried.
In other words, he was not doing what he felt was the right thing for society, but HIMSELF. He was just plain evil and wanted to see how far he could tear down Gotham City's hope, which could be beneficial for him in the future.
I think back to the story Alfred tells Bruce, about the thief in the jungle. The guy would steal valuables and just give them back (or something like that), which made Bruce ask, “so why steal them in the first place.” Alfred answers that some people, like the thief (and Joker), just do badness for the sake for it. I don’t think Joker had any goal or motivations. He was just psycho
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