Who here has family members who speak fluent Gaeilge (Irish)?

"I think you better tell me what you mean by imperialism destroying Irish? Anyway, even if the British did evilly set out to destroy Irish out of spite laughing manically like a pantomime villain, they did us all a favour in the long run."

They did do any favours, they did what was in THEIR best interests. This requirement to speak English to have a strong economy is a poor argument. Many countries like Finland don't require a grasp of English, yet their economy is perfect.

England didn't do us any favours, they just ripped whatever culture they saw fit to be removed and replaced us with their own alternative.

As for how imperialism destroyed Irish, they forced their own local policies on a foreign country and forced them to adhere to their laws and their language, banning the local language from being spoken.. banning the native people from even voting.. If that isn't imperialism, then I don't know what is.

So this whole England did us a favour *beep* is a sick joke. They did nothing of the sort. Our economy is doing wonders due to our own indepedence from Britain, yet our Northern friends are living in poverty and their average annual income is half of what it is in the South. England didn't do them any favours, now did it?

Hi Hotrodder, your name is familar. Perhaps we have. Please have a look at my previous post just before you posted yours if you haven't seen it. I'd rather not type it out again :)

The purpose of languge in education is just totally misunderstood by people in general.

There are two main educational purposes.

1. To develop and grow the linguistic aspect of the human box of talents. This is necessary to develop the rounded and talented human in society. Lingusitics is a fundamental skill area of the human mind, same as personality, or mumerical or spatial understanding. The other fundamental skill is music the appreciation and composition thereof.

2. To prepare a student for interaction with people from another language base.

This second purpose is often confused as being the primary purpose. Whereas its not that educationally fundamental at all. Belgians can communicate in 3 or four languages which proves that they have mastered both purposes. I'm sure Flemish is as widely used outside of an area half the size of Ireland as Irish is.

In the first instance you learn language structure form, rules and idiom. In the second you can learn by ear almost. If you do not know the first you could never learn the second. This is very often forgotten it this type of debate.

We all know people whom we percieve to be very good linguists. We all possess such a talent but it has not been as well developed possibly as these other more talented linguistis that we observe. This is purely a product of the education process. When I use the word education process I include the home and social environment of the student not just the educational institution or its processes.

In Ireland the language to address the first purpose is Irish. One of the main reasons for this is that it is accessable in Ireland and until very recently if not still, it is the only non-english language that will be heard spoken in public, in Radio/TV, written in newspapers or road signs, or used in placemanes or prayers etc. When you have a language that is "available" it is the prime target to serve the first purpose of education. If Swahili was that language it would serve a similar purpose. Maybe Polish is becoming available nowadays.

By the time French/German/Spanish, the traditional foreign language subjects are thaught you already know that they have structure, form and rules before you start. Sure these subjects may well be considered more economical in value to the individual but I can assure you that Connemara people see their language as of great economical value to themselves. In fact they say "as Gaeilge", sure gaeilge is not a load that you have to carry about with you, its as light as a feather. After you have learned the first non-vernacular language the others come easier to the linguistic talented. This is a well proven path.

So Irish is very much part of the educational streaming process in Ireland. If you want high points for university admission then you really need to do well in it. All Irish students are evaluated on psycological and personality development (English course), numerical and spatial capability (Mathematics), and linguistic capability (Irish). They are always the first three subjects in state exams for this very reason (very topical this very day in Ireland for our second level students).

Antipathy to Irish in Ireland (particularly adults and parents of students condemns students to subliminally reject the linguistic path in very many cases). I'm quiet sure that the same thing happens in the UK when putting down of French by adults in front of children is likewise destructive. Ditto for the rest of the xenophobic world.

Such putting down is educationally backward and shamefully destructive of the developing mind of the student. I do not argue here for a "change of Heart" for those who hold "anti" views. By all means hold these views but try to keep them to yourself for the sake of those developing minds around you. The right course of action is to adopt a neutral stance and let the student come to the knowledge with their own set of values. If they ask you to help, and you are unable, apologise for not being able to help but do not ever make comments like "I hated it when I was doing it because they did not know how to teach it in my day" etc. etc. Statements like that are just so mind-boggingly stupid its almost criminal.

All languages have inherent beauty and grace that enriches us and allows us to express ourselves in unique ways. Ipso facto we use Latin, n'est pas.

Fair is foul and foul is fair, hover through the fog and filthy air.

Go raibh mile maith agiaib. Ta'im cinnte nach bfuil sibh ag eisteacht.


The Pooka

[deleted]

Its definitely on the rise which I think is great , Me and my friend are currently brushing up on our Irish and many people I know are fluent , also in some places in Geaeilteacht areas they speak Irish all the time and I was on the receiving end of a few dirty looks a few months ago when I spoke English !

Here in the North we are forever being told that no-one speaks Irish anymore, but thats a political opinion. There are plenty of people speaking and learning it. Hopefully we will see more respect developing in the not so distant future.
As my granny likes to say "A nation without it's language is a nation without it's soul"

You are not a human being, Lola, you are an epidemic.

I realize you wrote this post almost a year ago, but in my recent experience working in Europe recently, English has become less, not more important. The truth is, this massive economic crisis (and a lot of other blunders in the world economy) are directly the consequence of failed policies in the UK and the United States, and so for obvious reasons, other countries don't have much enthusiasm for adopting the practices of the English-speaking world anymore. That even includes the language, to an extent. As far as Ireland is concerned, they could be just as successful economically (perhaps even more so) with Irish as their main language, and German (or French) as the common tongue they use to speak to other Europeans, with whom their economy is increasingly linked.

I do see what you're saying-- that Irish people do need a common "lingua franca" to talk to other Europeans (in addition to speaking their own Irish Gaelic-- but I disagree that such a lingua franca has to be English. There's nothing to recommend that, especially now. Historically, many languages before English have been lingua francas, such as French, German (for science) and Latin of course, so there's nothing that makes English set in stone as such a language now.

In fact, with English declining like this, other languages are filling that role. When I was working in Europe earlier this year, German was the language everyone was speaking, even more than English. In Bratislava (in Slovakia), for example, you CANNOT USE ENGLISH-- nobody speaks it there, whereas just about everyone uses German. Same with most of Poland as well as Hungary, and apparently in Croatia (as my colleagues told me, though I didn't go to Croatia specifically). The Czech Republic was mixed but definitely more German than English-- it was basically, "you can use English if it's all you know, but you'll get better business if you know German." So the engineers who knew German, wound up getting the best jobs and making the most money. If you go further east, to e.g. the Baltic Republics and Russia, German is even more dominant.

On the converse side, in most of the Mediterranean countries I went to (though I wasn't in Greece), almost nobody speaks English very well. I did find a lot of French-speakers, naturally, but after French, German seems to have more currency than English. Things vary in France (since French itself used to be such an international language), but I also found German to be very prevalent there. Certainly in NE France (esp in Alsace), seemed like everyone spoke German-- I heard German on the street and in the cafes as much as French. In Scandinavia, I did hear more English than German, but the Danes and Swedes e.g. were just as fluent in German. And in Belgium, German's one of the official languages. (Notice, I did not even consider countries like Germany and Austria themselves here, where German is obviously the language they use.)

IOW-- overall, it seemed that as a "common language" of Europe, German had an enormous following, far more than English did. The reason's obvious, since it's Germany's economy that drives the EU in the first place, whereas Britain is a much, much smaller contributor (even more so today, since England is suffering by far the worst recession among Western countries, with less ability to overcome it). Plus, seemed like for us in engineering at least, Germany was *the* place to be.

I realize one could raise questions about the best choice for a "global language" (in supposed contrast to German's importance as a mainly European language), but even here, it's tough to make the case for English. The most common global tongue is Chinese by far, and since China will soon be the top economy, Chinese will be the top global tongue. The main language in my own home country of India (Hindi) is also growing, though I realize it lacks that sort of international presence at this point.

Still, as global languages go, German has a case there, too. Given that it's spoken as a first and common business/engineering language from the Atlantic and into Russia, that alone makes it important. But it's also spoken in much of resource-rich Africa (e.g. Namibia), throughout South America (it's a tech language in e.g. Brazil and Argentina, and Chile), yes even in North America-- you can go into Wisconsin and Pa and it's still spoken, and used in German schools and institutions. For us in India, and apparently for the Chinese as well, German is growing in importance as a school and science language.

So Ireland has choices. I'm not saying to just throw English out, but I strongly doubt it's importance as *the* language of the West (let alone globally). So the Irish should just be comfortable using Irish language among themselves, then use German for communicating with Europe, then teach English/French (though including Chinese obviously) as needed, as electives.