So its official? Salsa is Puerto Rican? SPOILERS*** - El cantante (2007) Discussion

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] em1102 18 years ago

You both raise interesting points, but I think it is safe to say that Salsa is Puerto Rican, not Cuban, no disrespect to my fellow Cubans. What Cuban singers, like Celia, brought to the table may have put the tomato in Salsa, but Puerto Rico did the most important part.... mix it up!!! I can't wait to see this movie!!

*****
"I scared Stephen King." ~ J.K. Rowling

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[–] impossibleshot45 17 years ago

Musicians in colombia, venezuela, and cuba were making real salsa before willie colon and the like ever hit the scene, and no, it was not called "mambo" back then. this was different. it was real, hard-edged salsa, with trombone attacks and all. Federico y Su Combo? Fruko y sus Tesos? Los Dementes? Just a few of the many names revolutionizing Latin music outside of the Puerto Rican diaspora.

the idea that salsa is a puerto rican music is the result of the fact that the u.s. pretty much dominates the music industry the world over. i mean, c'mon, you have endless genres to describe music from the u.s., but then EVERYTHING from anywhere else is categorized under "world" music?

many other latin american countries had thriving salsa scenes that were original and innovative in their own right. people on the u.s. mainland have particular power over documenting history, and so it may seem that salsa is only about Fania and Colon, Lavoe, and company.. But that's only one part of the picture.

i encourage all of you to open your minds and be ready to critique the people who write the history books. if you don't, you may end up missing out on a lot of cultural richness and a lot of excellent music.

http://sunoflatinmusic.blogspot.com

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[–] gily34 17 years ago

Who cares about Salsa.

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

I think many people confuse Salsa with Cuban "son". Those are two different things. Thats why they say salsa is Cuban.

I dont think the movie would have made such a bold statement if it were not true.

Johnny Pacheco mention that the "mix" would include many genres, including the dominican "merengue", along Puerto Rican Bomba and Plena, plus the cuban music.

Since this "mix" was made by Puerto Ricans, it can be assumed that Salsa is a Puerto Rican creation.

I'm really glad this movie cleared the controversy.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

Ummm, yes it did. Salsa is a mixed of multiple music, not Cuban only. It even includes, Puerto Rican "guaracha" and dominican "merengue. I know it might hurt, but its clearly Puerto Rican made

Long live Salsa, the Puerto Rican genre.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

Nice try, but wrong again.

Salsa, as a genre, was made by Puerto Ricans, therefore it is Puerto Rican. But the genres they use includes other countries.

Its like saying Cuban "son" is African because of its african roots. Doesnt make sense, does it? Neither is calling Salsa Cuban because of it partial Cuban roots.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Squaredealer33 17 years ago

I haven't seen this film; however, I'm looking forward to it. I'd like to say that I suspect a drummer/percussionist can answer this question. It would come down to the beat. Anybody? Is there any musicologist who can talk about the beat? To the extent that Puente is a drummer/percussionist, his word would carry much in this debate. I'd love to read about the beat and how they are different.

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[–] ronny_stuart 17 years ago

latinrascal.. i know becuase i have been in the salsa scene since you were crapping your diapers... its not an assumption... don't take it personal... in fact if you watch the movie pacheco tells hector and willie that he doesn't speak spanish...

ruben... haha good joke... can really tell your tone of voice through a message could have been that you were just joking... just so many inaccurate things that ive read on this board that i thought you were just one more... my appologies..

kingwoofer... all salsa revolves around one beat... and its called clave... hard to explain what it sounds like over a message board... but its actually an intrument that looks like two fat sticks and the rhythm itself your gonna have to look up... clave is actually an african rhythm that was introduced into the carribean and also used in soka calypso and samba...

clave is the beat however the different sounds and rhythyms that are in salsa are various.... charanga, guanguanco, son, bomba, plena etc... a lot of stuff...

i would like to see in what context tito says that the music he plays is cuban... post up a link if not don't use it as a basis for your arguement...

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[–] LatinSweetie513 17 years ago

Actually Willie Colon is the one who says he can't speak Spanish. Johnny Pacheco actually can speak Spanish, as I heard him in an interview on Spanish language television.

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[–] Squaredealer33 15 years ago

What argument are you talking about? I haven't made any argument.

Are you saying that Tito is not playing Cuban music?

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[–] EnriqueDiaz 18 years ago

I am a editor in Venezuela and recently work in a documental about a cuban composer who write some songs to jhony pacheco,celia cruz and others,from his words,hi say that the salsa come from a lot of mixes but he never mention about a specific country

but he tell the story of the name salsa,he says that a radio... locutor? sorry i cant remember the word,he announces in his show that is the time of the salsa which was the hour of eating and one day jhony pacheco hear the term and use with fania,the only thing i know from this persons is that his last name is Escalona and the composer is named Tata Guerra

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

If we follow that line of thinking, then none of the music that came out in the Caribbean belongs to those countries. We would have to say its African.

If Cubans made son, then Puerto Ricans made "Salsa"

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

Here's another one:

http://www.musicofpuertorico.com/index.php/genre/salsa/

Plus the movie itself.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

I heard you the first time, lol.

Yet, the evidence indicates the "mix" known as Salsa was made by Puerto Ricans in New York. The place is New York, the ethnicity is Puerto Rican.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] ronny_stuart 18 years ago

i agree with dnaunraveled mi amigo.... salsa en si nunca hubiera pegado en puerto rico becuase of the traditionalist... this is why salsa is a new york sound it was born in new york for a reason... becuase of the era in music and the need for hispanics to have a music to which they could identify with... not just puerto ricans or cubans... think about it everywhere in new york the disco and rock scene were flooding the streets.. salsa is a fusion diferentes ritmos cubanos y puerto riquenos... sin embargo in niether cuba or puerto rico would have salsa been as recognized if it would not have been for the huge recognition it recieved in new york first therefore making salsa the new york sound....

on top of that salsa continued to evolve in new york with the crew from RMM... thats when sergio george came into the scene and gave salsa a new flavour... also not well recieved by traditionalists at first... but was a hot sound in new york... sir george produced some of the hottest acts in the late ninety's such as DLG, Frankie Negron, Charlie Cruz, Marc Anthony himself etc etc... and produced the soundtrack to this movie aswell...

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

I agree, Salsa grew in New York. I stated that a while ago.

The movie itself makes it clear that its was made by Puerto Ricans in New York.

I'm not saying that Salsa is "from Puerto Rico", but it was made by Puerto Ricans.

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[–] ronny_stuart 18 years ago

johnny pacheco who presented the concept of salsa to both willie colon and hector lavoe is actually dominican... he was the musical director of fania all-stars... and co founder of fania records... however he grew up new york and studied at julliard.... the man is a new yorkan and he would probably be the first to tell you that... as for hhis partner who helped turn salsa into a commercial success his name was Gerald (Jerry) Masucci.... im pretty sure that isn't a puerto rican name

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[–] Boricanator 18 years ago

C'mom, its a closed case. Dominicans would do the same if someone tried to do as such with merengue. You even say it yourself, the nick was made by Puerto Ricans.

Why is it hard to accept such an logical fact? All arguments about Salsa being Cuban fall short to just ethnic backlash, while arguments that Salsa is Puerto Rican have hard core evidence.

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[–] ruben363 18 years ago

Johnny Pacheco is Dominican, not Puerto Rican therefore; Dominicans not only invented Merengue but, also Salsa.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] anthropo 18 years ago

The origins of Salsa has been disputed for years. Some saying its Cuban others insisting its Puerto Rican.

Cuban? Since when? That has to come from people who know nothing about Latin dance.

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[–] ronny_stuart 18 years ago

it amazes me how much people don't know jack about where salsa came from and yet make stupid comments...

first of all Johnny Pacheco was born in dominican raised in new york where he went to Julliard... the fact that he was born in dominican doesn't mean that salsa is dominican... to say that is really God damn stupid... considering the fact that the guy didn't even know how to speak spanish... THE GUY WAS NEW YORKAN....

"Cuban? Since when? That has to come from people who know nothing about Latin dance." the guy above me... you abviously don't know what you are talking about you should stay out of the conversation... if you knew anything you would that rhythms like charanga, guanguanco, and son are cuban rhythms heavily used in salsa....

this conversation should be over and to finish the debate this is the closing statement:

SALSA was created by New Yorkan musicians, using different ethnic rhythms originating primarily from Puerto Rico and Cuba.

Unless anyone has something smart to say than this should be over and done with. I don't get it if you don't know anything about Salsa then why are you commenting??? Isn't that just ignorant. Do some research before you say something.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] ruben363 17 years ago

Before you start calling people "stupid"; how about checking your spelling, punctuation and grammar! I'm sure that everyone, but you, knew I was joking when I said Salsa must be Dominican because Johnny Pacheco is Dominican.

Relax,dude! Don't take life so seriously!

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[–] jkmerc17 17 years ago

Pacheco is Dominican... he named the music they were creating "salsa" because it was a mixture of different rhymths. You can't say that salsa was created by one group per se b/c it was born in New York, not in Cuba and definitely not in Puerto Rico nor in any place in the caribbean.

On the other hand, I read somewhere that Tito Puente used to say that he played cuban music not salsa.

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[–] denton-11 17 years ago

Amazing, this debate.

I don't use the word 'salsa' as it is slang at best and a marketing term at worst. I use 'Afro-Cuban music', which is correct. It doesn't matter who is making it. Celia Cruz is Cuban. Machito is Cuban. Tito Puente and Tito Rodriguez are Puerto Rican. And of course, Ruben Blades is Panamanian.

Yes, Puerto Ricans have obviously contributed heavily to the music, but its origins lie in the cross-pollination of New Orleans jazz musicians and Cuban rhythm masters like Chano Pozo and Cachao, who all traveled back in forth btw Nola and Havana in the 1920s and 1930s. Cuba was the only country where the slavemasters allowed slaves to have drums, so you also have a mingling of African rhythms with the formal Spanish 'danzons'.

Both Tito Puente and Celia Cruz at various times rejected the word 'salsa' as a marketing term and referred to the music as Cuban.

If you want to learn the roots of 'Salsa', or Afro-Cuban music, pls read the works of John Storm Roberts, who has done much research on the issue.

This is no disrespect to Puerto Ricans or any other group; the music, like all great music, is an evolving living thing, even today, and the diversity of the musicians and composers is an important and beautiful thing.

Another scholar, Peter Manuel, has stated [regarding the term 'salsa'] "recycling of Cuban music under an artificial, obscurantist label is but one more example of North American exploitation and commodification of third world primary products; for Latinos, salsa bridges the gap between "tradition and modernity, between the impoverished homeland and the dominant United States, between street life and the chic night club, and between grassroots culture and the corporate media"

Denton

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] keyser23 17 years ago

The OP doesn't have a clue about this topic. Salsa is not Puerto Rican. Puerto Ricans copied it made some innovations and it grew in NYC. However, the origins of Salsa ARE CLEARLY CUBAN.

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[–] Boricanator 17 years ago

Clearly, Cuban? What about all the plena and bomba in it. Salsa is a mix of many different genres. And that mix was made by Puerto Ricans in New York.

Plain and Simple.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Boricanator 17 years ago

The mixing may have been happening before. But the mixing that became Salsa was in the 1960s.

Musical mixing has been going on for centuries. Salsa is one of those mixes that happened to be brought together by the Puerto Ricans in New York during the 1960s.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] keyser23 17 years ago

Celia Cruz started and was part of La Sonora Matanzera. Which started in the early 50's in Cuba.

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[–] keyser23 17 years ago

First of all that's not true. Bomba y Plena was not mixed into Salsa. Bomba Y Plena were mixed into Puerto Rican Salsa. Which is a variation of Cuban Salsa. Original salsa incorporated Son Habanero, hence the term SON and Guaguanco. Which is the Cuban Version of Bomba y Plena.

Puerto Ricans added to a already existing music genre. They didn't invented it.

Learn some history. Because you're making us look bad. By us I mean Puerto Ricans.

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[–] ChicoChulo718 17 years ago

Okay everybody who gives a *beep* where salsa originated. Salsa was made by hispanics, for the world. Salsa didn't give a *beep* who invented it, i think it just wanted people to dance and enjoy it. the important thing right now is that the music is dying or almost dead. People now care more about reggaeton with talent-less artist than people with real singing talent. whats killing the music right now is the artist *beep* egos and stupid songs. Reggaeton suppose to be rap music for hispanics but it just talent-less gibberish with the same *beep* word over and over again. Luny Tunes have the same *beep* beats in amost every *beep* album. Daddy yankee is suppose to be the best but his word never *beep* rhyme. calle 13 is like the slim shady of reggaeton with their stupid clownish style videos, feels like i'm watching jack ass. so basically the music is dead, everybody looks alike, everyone sounds alike. how many hector y tito, wisin y yandel or rakim y ken y do we need. come on mother flowers come up with clever *beep* names and stop making dumb lazy music. i feel like its crunk music in spanish. like nas said hip hop is dead. spanish music is dead as well!

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[–] Boricanator 17 years ago

Keyser,

Most specifically, however, salsa refers to a particular style developed in the 1960s and '70s by Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants to the New York City area, and stylistic descendants like 1980s salsa romantica.

At the very least, Puerto Ricans were there at is creation. They didn't add to an existing genre.

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[–] keyser23 17 years ago

Sorry Boricanator, but the rhythm already existed in Cuba. They added to an existing genre.

Swim into the deep ocean not everything is on the surface.

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[–] XNefertitiX 17 years ago

Johnny Pacheco is not Cuban, Puerto Rican or Newyorican. Johnny Pacheco is Dominican.

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[–] ronny_stuart 17 years ago

Excuse my grammar and spelling, im not writing a formal essay here so *beep* sue me i guess...

so lets establish common ground

number one
salsa is derived from sfro-cuban rythms

number two
puerto ricans commercialized salsa in new york

here is my arguement is: salsa and afro-cuban music are two different things..

evidence?: lets use DLG from the late 90's as an example the commercialized salsa boy band...

a lot of thier songs fused rnb and reggea in to there music

tell me how many aaficans or cubans fuse rnb into thier traditional afro cuban music... this is my last post on this topic cuase its no use trying to convince anyone everyone always thinks that they are smarter than the next guy but id like to see what one of you salsa scholars answers to this...

afro cuban music is like the daddy
salsa is the rebelious child lol.... created by new york residents of latin ethnic background

HENCE making afro cuban music from cuba
salsa from new york

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